spthomas
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Posts posted by spthomas
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OK, there's problems with cold tires, but what about a cold track? Or more to the point, what temperature is a practical lower limit for a track day? I've had good traction and feel I can push it on warmer days but I have no experience in cooler temperatures so I'm hesitant. If it's 45F in the morning and 65F for a high, will that be OK?
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Greg, thanks for the insightful write-up- it's interesting to know not just you are doing, but what you are thinking!
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Hi,
I will be attending a few Superbike School days coming up at Infineon in Oct. and Nov.
I currently use the TechSpec SS tank pads and they work very well for me as long as I use my everyday riding pants (leather). I recently bought a one-piece leather racing suit for the track, but it's extremely slippery. Maybe it's the type of leather, or the location of the stretch panels, but I'm constantly sliding into my tank now and I'm having to work a lot harder. Does anyone have any suggestions? Is there some way to treat the leather to get it to grip better against the traction pads?
I've noticed the same thing. I have an Alpinestars 1 pc suit for the track, and their "bat pants" for twisty road days. Both materials are the same color and same 1.4mm spec leather, the the suit has little grip and the pants stick like rubber, but to the hand they feel similar. Whatever treatment they have on the riding pants I wish was on the suit!
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I rode the BMW bike at level 2 VIR in May and the electric shift assist does what you want- shift without using the clutch. Obviously you still have to use when starting out of course
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Q1- How would you have answered Keith’s question posed to me 2 years ago? How would you know if your sense of speed had improved? How do you make a comparison of before and after?
Q2- What is the product of the improvement in sense of speed? What does it mean to improve it?
Q3 Is improvement anything like being IN LOVE? (you just know that you are)
Q4- Is sense of speed strictly kinesthetic? Visual? A combination? Something other?
Q4- What other data is needed as a foundation for improvement? (free discussion)
I might be off, but my understanding was that it to some degree relates to consistency in lap times. At my last track weekend I felt like I was consistent, but without a measurement process I don't know, and I don't have a lap timer. During the last session I had a control rider (this was with NESBA) follow me around and he said afterwards my speed going into corners was very consistent. I said I never looked at my speedometer but he was following and did watch and in a particular turn he said I was within 2mph every time. So this was better data than a lap timer in that it was measured at a particular spot.
I recall in level 1 Keith talking about the sense of speed and he said (I think) the pro guys know their speed within 1/2 mph. I'm sure I'm not that accurate at knowing the number of my speed- I suppose that is like a musician having perfect pitch. I think the purpose is to be able to go into and through corners predictably and fast (Q2). If you speed varies, your line, lean etc. will vary. Too slow, you waste time and think "I could have done that faster!"; too fast and SRs trigger.
Q4- I would say a combination of kinesthetic, visual, and audible inputs- humans are marvelous at this.
Q3- Perception is your perception- you might be right, you might be wrong. I may think I'm consistent but my speedometer may disagree, but more importantly my cornering performance will vary. I'd think if my corner performance is very consistent from lap to lap, my speed would have to be consistent too.
Q5- Ideally for improvement I would like to have one of those GPS timer gadgets, then you can lay our the data and see how consistent you are. I don't know that I would work on speed sense per se because it's more of an effect than a cause, but if your speed is varying a lot something is up. The data can help bring your sense of speed and the reality together.
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My condolences to the family also; I cannot fathom the heartbreak. A lot of people thought he was a pretty nice kid. I was at the race and heard he crashed but figured he would restart. I was so excited to see him in action; one of my friends I was with and I were talking about cool it was to have him on the TOTW2 DVD. I didn't find out until just now what had happened. I am so sorry.
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Stevo,
I talked with the Stomp guys recently, they had had a bad batch of adhesive a while back, we'd heard of some guys having problems. But what Fossil says worked well in terms of applying it (heat gun/hair dryer). I did one recently, and it worked well.
Some guys think the Stomp is too much through the jeans, but Jason doesn't mind obviously.
CF
Thanks for the insight, maybe that was the problem with mine. My track day buddy has stomp grip and has had no problems. But for now I'll try the tech spec since I have them and see how it goes.
(By the way, Kiwi's avatar a few entries above is probably one of the best pictures showing how leaning off keep the bike's position more upright while the composite center of gravity is moved down... need to post that over in "Body Position Evolution"...)
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About a year ago(?) there was a thread about this and everyone seemed to like the tech-spec better...
...but in either case, what do you guys recommend for getting them to stick? i put tried stomp grips but they came off. I (thought I) cleaned the surface well, used isopropyl alcohol to clean, but still they wouldn't stay. My tank has a Pringle Potato Chip curve in that part of the tank, so the adhesive has to work hard. I have since bought some tech spec pads but haven't put them on until I'm sure I've got a good formula to make them stay.
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Why ride? I thought about this riding home from work yesterday and I would sum it up as- it makes me feel like a kid again. As kids we rode our bikes everywhere and had a lot of fun doing it on the process. The checkered flag on a track session is like the recess bell- I'm out playing having a lot of fun and I really don't want to have to stop.
The most enjoyable part? Flying around corners as fast as you can go!
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As I've expected - something gone wrong. I've placed my first "HI" post incorrectly ;-)
Anyway - hi everyone
and regards from Poland...Welcome to the forum! You will finds lots of good information about riding here. It's always interesting to meet people from so many different place. I have to travel to Gdansk next month and it's nice to know there's lot of moto enthusiasts in the region!
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Steve,
It sounds like you had a great time. Reading a report about going out there, having fun and working on things without too much stress, SRs or near crashes was very encouraging. Thanks.
Best wishes,
Crash106
Thanks. There was a link a few weeks ago about Keith helping Camier at Miller, and he said something about professional rider not making mistakes out of fear like street riders. I'm not a professional but I figure I can either be that guy who is "just pushing it", goes fast and crashes often, or be an attentive student and take what I paid to learn and learn to ride properly and counter the SRs with knowledge rather than suppression.
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Looks like you had a good time. We ride the same bike and I know what it feels like to "nail it". Indiana to ViR must've been a hump. Maybe I'll catch you back out there sometime. 2nd half of the day, I've found to work better (less traffic).
Yes, the last two sessions were much better, as the group had thinned out via crashing or people just calling it a day. (The 15 minute 3:00 corner worker break does wonders...)
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Correct on a Qualifier or a GP-A 209. On a GP-A 211, the numbers you quote are what I have heard is the correct pressure but I have never used the 211's so I don't have any direct experience with that tire.
I was looking at Q2's for when I need to replace my current Qualifiers. One question that came up in paddock talk the other day was should one get the 211's and can they be used on the street, or Q2's? My thought was that Q2 were intended for track and street use, whereas the GP tires were meant for track only. Is that right?
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Had my first double-header track day last Saturday and Sunday, and the first chance to be on the track after taking level 2 at VIR last month. This was my thinking:
I remembered an earlier comment, maybe from Dylan Code?, that if you're not working on something you're wasting your time. I figure no sense going in circles, so I needed a bit of a plan. I've not had much of a plan on my previous track days.
I thought one thing I would do is pick a specific reference turn-in point for each of the 10 corners of the track. I've never really done that before in all the times I've been there, and that was a concrete goal (well, asphalt!).
I wanted to incorporate all the things I learned in level 1 also, and I felt my quick-turn was a little slow and I wanted to improve that too. But I remember in level 1 when we did quick-turn someone had placed duct-tape X's on the track at just the right points, so I thought I'd try to do the same. Of course they wouldn't let me go out with my duct tape (how inconsiderate!) so I ended up picking specific features on the track surface, mostly splotches and scratches. Two places were just "one foot off the end of the kerbing", the other 8 surface marks. So after a few sessions I had specific turn-in points.
I made a conscious effort to ride over the points without staring at them, but looking ahead into the curve (2-step). That was sensible to do, especially as you go faster- if I had kept my eyes on the turn-in point and then looked up and ahead, I would have gone off track. So I felt I was doing the 2-step OK.
Then I need to work on my lean, as I was still being crossed-up, even though I thought I had my head over. (A control rider (this was Nesba) confirmed this.) So my buddy (who had also gone to the school with me) and I worked on this with our bikes in the paddock. I realized my problem was I was still rotating my hip around the tank rather than pointing it towards the turn and dropping my upper body into the "V" of the legs. My buddy also said I was keeping my inside arm too straight and hardly bent. So, I worked on making sure the inside arm was bent, the outer one straight and loose lying on the tank. This helped me actually get my whole torso over instead of just moving my head over. And I was paying attention to where I was looking ahead.
After a few rounds, he said I looked better with the leaning off, and had a GoPro movie of it, but I haven't had a chance to see it yet.
Later I realized on problem was I had a definite turn-in point, but not so much on apex and exit, so I worked on that too, to get really consistent lines.
One thing that threw me off (about lines) was traffic- I was in the beginner group, and early in the day there were a lot of guys who you could tell were having their first track day and their plan was "don't go in the grass". That's OK, I had a first day too, but it was a little frustrating because I was always running up on a freight train of beginners. So I did what was recommended, which was to hot pit, and then go out with some clear track. I always avoided that, because I had felt I was wasting time. But I realized I was wasting time getting stuck behind people I couldn't pass. We could only pass on straights, and being on a 600, it was hard getting past the guys on 1000's who would pin it on the long straight. But I did start finding some success later with the pick-up drill idea and could get going quicker on the straight and that helped in some cases when there was just one or two guys in front of me. So if I had a big group, I would just back in through the pit, and flag guy realized what I was wanting and would give me nice open spots. So with clear track I could focus more on the specific things I was working on.
One thing that did not happen was any "oh ######" situations. This was a first, going a whole weekend without feeling like I was going to run wide etc. My quads are also very sore!
In future track days, I want to focus more on carrying more speed through the corner. It wasn't that bad "oh I slowed down way too early" effect, but just raising the pace carefully.
I need to take the peg feelers off, as they were scraping on a lot of corners. My fork springs are soft too, so I need to address that- I think I'm not braking hard because I know my front end dives quickly. (My bike is a complete stock '02 CBR600F4i.) But I was very happy with the tires, so sense of any kind of slipping. Although I did notice the front end feeling light for the first time pinning the throttle earlier as I got the pick-up drill going.
So... that's where I'm at with my riding. It may seem a bit over-analytical, but I felt great having a plan and that it helped me make a lot of progress. And yes, I really had a lot of fun.
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I ride a 2007 ZX6R with Q2 tires? What's the recommended track day cold tire pressure for these. Dunlop only publishes street pressure and they are really high.
Artpilot;
Depending on temperature, I run 31/29 or 32/30.
Rain
Just to be clear, 31 Front/29 rear? I always thought the rear had the higher pressure, but at a track day last weekend guys were talking about things like 30F/23R which I thought seemed odd.
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I was at VIR on 17 May for Level 1; it rained pretty much the whole day. Wet, cold, and nasty, and I had a great time.
I was there as well doing level 2. For sure dry would have been more fun but I felt I was able to learn what I was supposed to learn; I'll work on it at speed on my next (hopefully dry) track day. I can say though I've never gone so fast in the rain!
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I wanted to turn the question around, so I wanted to make a new thread to not confuse the other one... seeing as I'm signed up for Level 2 at VIR in a few weeks...
What are the component pieces that make a good coach, in this sport, or really any other for that matter?Here is one piece that has to be there, and pretty darn fundamental: observing. And you might think to yourself, "Cobie, that's pretty obvious dude." Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But that ability to simply observe what is happening in front of you, this is not a skill of minor importance.
What do you guys see as another skill in a good coach? (or comments on the above).
Best,
Cobie
What are the component pieces that make a good student, in this sport, or really any other for that matter?
There's a number of coaches on the board here, so what can a student to to make your day!?
Best,
Steve
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Welcome to the forum, Adam. Nicely organized intro!
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Personally, I am pretty sure that failing to keep my eyes level with the real horizon caused me to ride off the road back in 1991. I was, out of stupidity, occupied with looking at the instruments as I went into a corner. When I looked up, I was slightly off course and heading for the outside of the road. I felt confused because I had my head aligned with the instruments instead of the road, and simply failed to make the simple required adjustments and ended up with a tumble that wasn't very pleasant.
Could part of the issue just be the surprise you experienced due to the difference between where you thought you were and where you really were once you looked up? Normally when we ride or drive we have a continuous stream of visual information coming into our eyes and we are used to that. I think the interruption of this is a problem and part of the reason why fiddling with things in the car is dangerous- we are changing a CD and look up and - whoa!- someone pulled out- what did I miss? goes through the mind in an instant. I think that when we have a visual interruption of the stream our minds are filling in what should be there. If the duration is short and the mental estimate is correct, we don't think about it. But if the mental estimate can't realign easily with the resumed reality, we get disoriented. When you blink your eyes, you never notice it, because it's so short of a time.
I can't say I try to keep my head perfectly level in cornering, just really keep it level enough that my field of view includes as much of the oncoming track as possible.
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I have tried relaxing and keeping my weight off the front of the bike – but I always seem to end up pushing down with my weight to gain the angle/curve I am after. A lot of it has to do with my body position in relation to the bars - i feel unable to use forward pressure on the bar. Maybe I am too high up and need to get down lower as I drop down into the curve – this might allow me to counter steer throughout the corner. Of course the other option is to pull on the outside arm/grip – however, once into the turn that arm doesn't seems to be under my attention/control.
I did the same thing, and when I went to the level 1 school it was pointed out in the steering drill that I needed to get my forearms more level with the ground as Kai said. Now I sort of got this picture in my head of an Egyptian sphinx- forearms out horizontal, back more horizontal too, feet back up on the pegs on the balls of my feet.
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So let's here it people, don't be afraid to post up your thoughts. Let's here from some others...
What do you feel for? How do you know how much traction is available ?
My answer is also "I'm not sure". So far I haven't had either end slide out but I'm not the fastest guy on the track either. My last track day was raining in the morning, so I rode around in the wet just to get some experience with it. I wasn't sure but the back end felt a little loose in the turns but then I began to wonder if it was my imagination due to increased expectation of something, or reality. Some guys I talked to afterwards said if you think it's moving, it probably really is.
I was thinking about this the other day; the visual I had was walking around the flat roof of a really tall skyscraper, blindfolded. So far I haven't fallen off the edge, but will my feet detect at least a rounded edge to the roof or will I step off into space and fall? I don't know the answer, but this is why I'm looking forward to trying out the slide bike at school someday to find out.
So far what I'm hearing and learning is- going into turns, braking hard- the front is at risk- try to feel, and listen. Coming out of turns, getting on the gas hard, the rear is at risk- try to feel.
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Jaybird, congratulations on the chickadee! Just be careful about teaching her to ride motorcycles- if you do a good job, which I'm sure you will, there may come a day when you can't keep up! Enjoy them while they're little.
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Billy, welcome to the forum... I'm sure you'll find lots of interesting information, discussions, and people here! And yes, you're lucky to have such beautiful places to ride! Wow.
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And for a few, get the heart rate and heat generated by a racer to work, then we'd really have some use out of technology
CF
Yes, I have one of those... bicycles
Cold Pavement
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
I don't have tire warmers
Normally I usually take the first lap slow, the second a bit faster, then all-out for the rest of the session. I wasn't sure how much the colder pavement draws heat out of the tires though.