spthomas
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Posts posted by spthomas
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Clutchless downshifting works well, and can be done completely smoothley. You for sure do have to give it a little blip, that unweights the transmission for a moment, and you can make the downshift.
With rare excpetion, I have been doing this for years, and so have other coaches at the school. It not only (I think) is easier on the rider, it is no harm to the bike (with the 2 provisios stated before--don't preload the shift lever, don't stomp it into gear if one gets a false neurtral). It can take a little practice to get the timing right, so there is not surging, but learnable for sure.
CF
Good info. I will work on learning this- something I can work on outside of the track!
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Related to this, I was experimenting with clutchless downshifting. I pretty much do clutchless upshifting all the time, except sometimes from 1st to 2nd. But for downshifting I was having more difficulty. It seems, at least on my bike ('02 CBR600F4i), that I need to give a little bit of throttle to get positive power flow through the transmission before it will downshift. Has anyone else experienced this? (I think this had something to do with how I inadvertently hit the kill switch causing my crash last track day.) The problem is this ends up taking more time and coordination than just normal clutch shifting. I worry about downshifting too much and causing wheel lock up though so I don't do it and then come out of corners in too high of a gear and thus don't get a good drive.
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However, IMO, 36 psi front and 42 psi rear is definitely WAY too high for a single rider.
I just went out to the garage and checked. It gives the 36/42 for up to a 200 lbs. load. Me+ gear is 170 lbs, so I figured I wasn't too far off the mark. The tires were sticky enough to pick up all sorts of little pieces of rubber which are hard to pull off. I will have to try the lower pressures though. A friend of mine said he took 6psi off for track, so 30/36. Then someone else said don't change your pressure for track days because then your bike starts handling differently and then that's something else you have to get used to. So many opinions! But this board has more serious riders. I will go get a better gage than the tires store one I have.
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Maybe not a hot cornering topic, but I wonder what kind of mileage the different bikes get, in different applications. My '98 ZX-9 gets 43 when I'm commuting and buzzing around town. Thats's some freeway, some stop and go streets. What do you have, what do you get?
Best,
C
On my 02 CBR600F4i I get 47mpg on 87 octane gas during normal commuting, which is mostly highway cruising at about 70 mph.
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What are the best track tires? I have 2008 ZX-6R that is my track only bike
There are a lot of good tires available these days for sure. The Qualifiers that are used on the student bikes are excellent. Since you do track only riding, the track based tires will work a little better and likely last a little longer too. We have some GP-A's and Sportmax GP, and also some slicks. We do have a terrific deal for students, they can get one set before, and one set after, but that's the limit (per school day they are signed up).
Best,
Cobie
ps--the office can help with any ordering if you need: 800-530-3350
Cobie- do you know what pressures does the school use on their ZX-6R's? I have Dunlop Qualifiers on my CBR600, but I set them at the recommended pressure, 36 front, 42 rear. I didn't have any problems with them sticking on any of my track days this year. They did get hot enough the outer edge of the rear tires started to get a little bit blue.
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I'm curious as to what people will think about this as well. My thought is that technique will trump fitness, but fitness will give an edge between two riders with the same technique. Losing unnecessary weight will help- think about how much R&D bike manufacturers have to do to shed 20 lbs. on a bike! One benefit of fitness is mental- exercise stimulates endorphins which helps mental posture; this in turn helps you spend your $10 of attention on riding and not coping with the physical stress of riding. I had a track day last Sunday and I would see some big boys from the expert group coming into the paddock on their bikes with the face shield up with bright red faces- this can't be good. I have a 95 lbs. weight advantage (rider+bike) compared to my track day buddy (we both work out a lot but he's just a big guy and I'm a small guy) so I think that helps me.
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somehow I posted this twice....
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Funny you should post this question; I had my first track day crash yesterday! I don't think my case was a leading cause though. I was going down the long straight (at Putnam Park), got up to about 130 and then started slowing down for the right turn at the end, I started into the turn and looked and my engine wasn't running- 0prm on the tach. I'm thinking to myself "what the...". I was holding the clutch in and I thought I better not let that out, hit the start button, nothing. At this point I'm staring at the controls and not the track and I'm starting to run wide. I was slowed down pretty good at this point and I went to the outside and then into the grass. It was only the 2nd morning session and the grass was dewey and whoop down I went on my right side. I had that instant realization I've now joined the fraternity of people who have crashed on a track, sliding along in the wet grass. I wasn't hurt at all, got up, couldn't start the bike, steam coming out of somewhere. I put out the kickstand and finally got it started; it quit and I had to restart a few times. So I rode back to the paddock slowly. The only problem was I broke my right front turn signal, bent my rear brake lever in, and popped off the radiator cap which was why it was dripping green. After that I ran the rest of the day and everything was fine. I'm not sure why my engine stopped, I've never had anything like that happen before (Honda CBR- very reliable bike). I was trying to downshift and I thought maybe somehow I stalled it, but I think what I might have done is somehow hit the kill switch- that would explain why I restarting it while I was still coasting on the track did nothing. I can't remember if I had to move the switch to get it going again though- it's all a blur. The clearest memory of the whole event was sensation of sliding in the wet grass- I always liked playing the snow as a kid and it was a bit like a toboggan run.
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I would add that a good book to read as an introduction is "Motorcycling Excellence" (2nd edition) which the MSF publishes. It covers all the basics and has lots of good photos and drawings to illustrate the concepts described in the text. Read it and understand everything in it thoroughly- think of it as Level 0.
I bought a sportbike about 2 years ago; I had a small cruiser type before that (about 10 years) so I had not ridden a motorcycle in a long time. I did what you described, just riding carefully to get the hang of it until I was comfortable being on public roadways. In the spring, after having the bike for about 6 months, I went riding on some twisties with guys I work with- that was a stretch, but a lot of fun. Then I did a track day. I was probably the slowest one out there, but you learn a lot in a controlled environment like that. Then a few months after that I went to the Level I school. I was glad I had the track day under my belt before the school just so that not everything was new- then I could concentrate on what they were teaching me.
One thing I did which I think in hindsight was a good decision for me was to buy a used bike. That left enough funds to buy really good gear, books, track days, education, etc. I hear about people spending all their money on a spiffy new bike and then complaining they can't afford even a proper jacket. My advice would be to spend your money on YOU to make YOU a better and safe rider. (That sounds like what you were thinking, but I just wanted to reinforce it.)
Enjoy it- it's a LOT of fun!
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Wow. Josh was my coach at Level I school last year at mid-Ohio. Fun guy to work with. I didn't realize he was doing AMA racing until just the day before so I made sure to look for him in the race and saw him crash out. He walked away and waved so it didn't seem too bad at the time.
When crash events like this happen, does anyone know if there are there reports written up that companies who make protective gear can review? Every crash is different so if you can learn a little something from each real incident that might be helpful data. I'm sure without the gear he had things would have been much worse. In this case if I were a glove manufacturer I'd think about seeing if there is a way to put something like a 1 or 2" wide bracelet of sorts made of some strong material inside at the top of the gauntlet that wouldn't interfere with normal usage but would help protect against crushing forces that could damage this sensitive area. This might not be the best solution, I'm just making this up as I type, but my mind goes into gear when someone you like gets hurt.
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I've been reading through TOTW2 again; in chapter 9 there is a sketch showing how the high backed seat helps anchor the rider. I find on my bike though I'm not getting that support- there is 3-4" at least of space behind my butt and the vertical part of the seat behind me. I think I would like to have some support back there as that would allow my arms to be more neutral in holding onto the bars under hard acceleration. If I slide all the way back I feel I'm stretching out too far. I've seen photos of race bikes that have what looks like a big piece of rubber or foam to make the seat back support closer- maybe that is what I need. Anyone else feel this way?
[My bike is an '02 CBR 600 F4i which has a separate rider and passenger seat- in '03 they changed it to a continuous seat on the F4i's when the RRs came out. At 5'7" 145lbs I'm not big or tall.]
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For what' it's worth:
I rode four track days, and cornerworked a bunch. Then I took second place in my first race, and won my second race.
If all you want is to have a picnic at the track, sure, keep up the good work. Bring the wife and kids and grandma too.
You obviously have what it takes.
What are you waiting for?
OK, I've been thinking about this... what am I waiting for? Mostly confidence in knowing I'm riding right, good body position etc. If you haven't had your knee down are you ready for racing?
But assessing strengths and weaknesses... one thing between my buddy and I that surprised me was how easy it was to stay up with him but I got to doing some calculating. It turns out I weigh about 145, he is 220, his bike is 20lbs more, so together he is 95lbs. heavier which must some impact even though he was on a 1000cc and I was on a 600cc. What else? I just did an Olympic distance triathlon last weekend, so I'm in good condition cardio-wise.
One funny thing about grandma though- my mother-in-law lives with us now and she loves watching all the motorcycle racing. She knows all the riders, teams, etc. Pretty cool I think.
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I had the same problem. What I started focusing on more was trying to hold the bike up instead of leaning off so much. I still leaned, but in trying to keep the bike more upright, I found that I was leaning way off the bike all of a sudden right about where I needed to be. After my first couple warmup laps when I first tried this, I had my puck down on the 3rd corner, and the peg shortly after. I've slowly adjusted so that my last trackday I didn't even scrape my peg once. I run stock foot pegs, but have good control over the leaning of the bike.
I think what are saying is what is happening with me. I was sitting on my bike in the garage this morning trying to figure out what my body positioning was and maybe what it should be. For discussion, if we are turning left, I think the inner thigh of my right leg was against the tank, my butt centered on the left edge of the seat. I then moved more to the left (than I was at the track) whereby my right calf was against the side of the bike, my thigh was on the back of the tank and the right side of my butt was on the left edge of the seat. It seems like I need to be more off like that if my knee is going to touch before the pegs. Does this sound right?
I took some tire pictures this afternoon: front tire, back tire
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For what' it's worth:
I rode four track days, and cornerworked a bunch. Then I took second place in my first race, and won my second race.
If all you want is to have a picnic at the track, sure, keep up the good work. Bring the wife and kids and grandma too.
You obviously have what it takes.
What are you waiting for?
I dunno, hadn't thought about it. I'm not that competitive of a person; I just like winning all the time.
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Well, you obviously have no problem with lean angle.
If you aren't running front of the pack lap times for the local race club and top 10-15 AMA pro times... something is missing.
Aside from some top notch coaching, my guess is that it might be a little competition. Perhaps it's time to skip the track day and go race.
The friend I'm riding with (and went to the school with me) has a friend with a helmet cam so next track day we hope to use it for learning and fun. I just need to keep riding, learning, and improving. On one session I was following him on his R1 the whole way around for several laps; at some points I was running up on him maybe a bit too much. Next session he followed me around most of the session; afterwards when we parked the bikes he took his gloves off and shook my hand and said he was proud of me and that I had improved 10x since our track day last May. That felt nice.
We were both in the novice group. By the end of the day I was passing some guys so I wasn't the slowest one out there for once. There were a few guys that were faster though. I did do a few passes on both the straightaway and some turns- that was new too.
My plan is to do two more track days this year and next year get to Level 2.
The day was a lot fun- when it was one or two minutes before the hour when the checkered flag comes out I was thinking "oh no I want to keep going". It was that same feeling I had as a kid in 3rd grade recess not wanting the bell to ring... hadn't felt that way in a long time!
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Are you using all of your tire out to the edge with those feelers in place?
Yes. I'm running Dunlop Qualifiers and on the back especially the rubber is almost liked it's worked over the edge lip. They did get hot and pick up little pieces of rubber. My front is almost like it has a re-tread. No chicken strips left!
I had hoped to get some photos taken; I had brought my own digital SLR with a good 180mm lens and a riding buddy was going to stop by and take some pictures for me but he ended up not coming. I did get some great shots of other guys. I figured my knee would touch- the ground seemed so close, but it didn't, so I may not be far enough off. I'm not the tallest guy either I don't know how much long limbs plays a factor. I did pay attention to my outside knee being against the tank- I could feel my weight pulling down against it for the first time. I also had my upper/outer arm resting lightly on the tank. I wasn't holding on tight to the bars for dear life either. I always think back to the picture Keith showed in class of an ad of Stoner riding, holding onto the bat with almost open hands.
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I was just scraping the end of the feeler peg; it was a fairly light scrape for just a second, not with a lot of force, but just an indication I was leaned over a lot I guess. My bike is an '02 Honda CBR 600 F4i. My mental block had been leaning, so I guess I'm getting over that and need to focus next on good body positioning.
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I had my 2nd track day since Level I school a year ago; I'm gradually improving and getting faster and generally feeling better about my riding. And having a LOT of fun!
One thing that happened this time was I scraped the feeler peg on my foot rest. At first I thought it was my boot but after I got back to the paddock I realized it was the peg. On two different sessions I did the left side and the right side.
If I've done this but I'm not dragging my knee puck, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm not trying to drag anything as a goal in itself.
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One thing to keep in mind is the the weight of the rider and bike do not matter, in principle. An easier way to compute the above is:
Given velocity v in m/s, radius r in m, using g (gravitational acceleration of 9.8 m/s2),
lean angle = invtan(v*v/r/g) (lean angle from upright, so upright=0 deg.)
If you have the lean angle theta and want to find v, do this:
v = squareroot(g*r*tan theta)
Keep in mind the angle is measured to the center of mass of the bike and rider as a whole, so if you are leaned off with your body the bike (and therefore tires) can be more upright.
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Now that we've had some nice weather, I've been riding to work (30mi each way). From a cornering point of view, it's not very exciting- no curves at all! The only cornering is at intersections.
So can this help my cornering?
Things I can do: I've been making sure my throttle control is smooth; I've been trying to guess my speed and then check with the speedometer.
Is this silly? It seems saddle time in general should be good...
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Many try and work on too much at one time. Take a hint from how keith has set up the school, do one thing at at time!
C
I still have the hand-out from the level I school with the drills we did. My plan is to work through those and get them solid so I'm ready for level II.
This brings me to something I've wondered- how much track time is recommended between school sessions? On one hand I know you can do level I and II on consecutive days; on the other hand I want to practice the drills and get it down so I get the most value out of the next level class. But then I don't want to practice bad habits too long either...
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Hi Steve,
That sure is a change going from a Shadow to an F4i. Sounds like you got the bug for a sport bike after being on the track.
Have fun on the new bike.
JR
I have a 29-mile commute each way to work. One day after work, a friend I work with who lives near me switched bikes on the way home just for fun. He had some sort of Yamaha sport bike (not sure of the model) and I had a hard time keeping it under 90. I finally pulled off to the side of the road to wait for him to catch up to me. There was no turning back!
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Hi everyone. The weather is finally warming up here and it's time to go riding again! I went to the level I school last August and plan on going to a track day at the end of May and practice some of the things I learned at school. I've been reading the books again and trying to remember everything, but there's nothing like being on the bike and just moving!
I used to ride a Honda Shadow from '88 to '97 but got an '02 CBR600F4i about 18 months ago, so I consider myself a newbie.
Maximum Braking Effect
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
OK, here's what happens; I went out for a ride today to work on this. I can do the clutchless downshifting and it's almost as smooth as the upshifting. The little bit of throttle adjustment to unweight the transmission for downshifting is similar to what you need for upshifting. The one thing I need to be careful of is to make sure my foot isn't holding any pressure on the shift lever in between gears- if I don't quite get it up then it won't shift when I push down. I was not going very fast and the engine speed wasn't high. I can drive this was in normal traffic to change speed although coming up to a light I tend to not go through all the gears but rather hold the clutch in and just shift all the way down to first. The time I find it does not work is if I'm braking hard because then my throttle is not on at all and while holding the brake lever on I don't think it's practical to do much of any throttle management. Right? In this case I just use the clutch and shift.
Another experiment I did was when there was a bit of throttle on and I wanted to upshift. I was thinking about the blip thing. If you hold the throttle steady and pull in the clutch, the engine speed goes up- quickly. So what I did was hold the throttle steady, pulled in the clutch and shifted and let the clutch out, all very quickly. This worked out to be pretty smooth if you do it all as one quick action.