spthomas
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Posts posted by spthomas
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There is a mental side to this, I once saw a sketch of 3 riders leaned over, in the first sketch the rider was at 25 degrees but thought he was at 45 degrees, in the second the rider was at 45 degrees but thought he was only at 25 degrees, and in the third the rider was at 45 degrees and thought he was at 45 degrees!
obviously rider 3 is able to ride the best, where rider 1 is probably the safest he's not going to get much faster and as for rider 2, well its just a matter of time till he crashes!
Do you know exactly where you are regarding lean angle or are you a bit more like sketch 1 or 2?
After I did my level 3 this year I remembered about this when I saw a photo of myself not carrying much lean angle through a corner that I thought I was doing quite good, so it looks like I ride a bit like sketch 1, the funny thing is my tyre wear makes it look like I've been leaning quite far!
Those sketches would be interesting to see! Sometimes there is a photographer at the track days and it's interesting to see what you looked like vs. how you felt. I think I'm getting the two angles more congruent (sounds like geometry class!).
There seems to be an explosion of those compact video cameras at track days which I think would be helpful for seeing your real lean angle. My track day buddy bought one but went home early yesterday at a Nesba track day because of rain. I stayed and it eventually cleared up nicely and I got a couple of good sessions in, but alas, no video. I did get some useful comments from one of the control riders though.
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I ended up with a third place (I got a TROPHY!! YAY!!!) and I was thrilled with that.
Congratulation, that's great! It reminds of the line "experience is what you get just after you need it". Now you've got some!
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I think I'm addicted. Is there a twelve step program I can attend for this? Here are my symptoms:
1.) I keep going out to the garage and looking at the motorcycles.
2.) I have worn out my playstation III controller playing MotoGP 08
3.) I have every race form World Superbike saved on my DVR
4.) Eugene Laverty has won the Assen race 14 times so for this year
5.) I have race gas in the lawn mower, I won't mow the grass with out it.
6.) I have 74 friends on face book only my mom and wife are not on motorcycles
7.) I take two quick laps around the neighborhood, At lap two I go back in the garage before someone calls 911
8.) I am going to VIR for Keith Code next Monday
9.) I'm driving twelve hours out of my way to see MotoGP qualifying at Indy on Saturday
10.) I want to race in the WERA National Series in September
11.)I want to do a track day in October
12.) my wife says she is going to leave if I don't stop.....
13.) Room mate wanted to share expenses
Are there any other addicts out there with your own symptoms? Would you like to join then it could be called "Group Therapy".
You probably won't qualify for therapy, as reading through your list I don't see anything that isn't perfectly normal as far as I can see...
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Well, my vehicle choice has been influenced by my motorcycling. I enjoy the feedback that my car provides and the cornering ability it has. It doesn't have monster HP, but the feel and handling is superb.
OK, I'll bite- what are you driving?
I think we both have or had the same bike, a CBR600F4i. I drive an '06 Mini Cooper, manual- what a hoot! I had a chance to take it to a track a month ago (not the same one I used for the bike though) and got to push it a lot harder in corners than I do on the street. That was a good experience to find where the limits really are. I do agree there's a synergy in riding and driving.
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Just a thought here stevo but wouldn't one positive quick turn for each corner be more predictable? If you were behind a slower rider looking for a way past how would you prefer them to ride?
Good point- yes that would be my preference. My worry may not really be justified, I've had a few people dive underneath me but not anyone cut in front of me. I'm not sure it's a real problem- I don't know that people are right there behind me- I could be out there all in my own space but I've made it a habit not to go looking around before I turn.
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Stevo,
Hey Man! Come down pit lane and wait for the traffic to clear so you can work on the drills you want in the corner you want. I used to do this when I was in intermediate class.
That's a good idea, I almost did that last track day but I have to get over the idea of giving up time, even a minute. But yes, I should be getting "quality time"!
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Every time I go to the track I have an idea of a few drills I want to work on throughout the day...
I should be more organized a bit but in reading other material here I think my weak spot right now is the quick turn. But I also just realized why I'm holding back on the quick turn- being still in the beginning group, I'm nervous about doing something quick and running into someone else. I always make an effort to behave predictably so as to not cause problems and tangling up with other guys, and I've equated predictability with being slow and gradual in corners.
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Really good posts there HotFoot and Fajita Dave,
Anyone else care to offer their perspective on this?
Bullet
As a non-expert rider... one of the things about track riding that makes it so great is the demand for concentration and focus. My mind is pretty much just thinking about where I'm at and the next turn ahead and how to optimize getting there in the quickest way. It's that combination of mental conscious, mental sub-conscious, and physical that's unlike other things we normally do in our lives that makes playing hard so much fun.
Here's something I've thought and am curious if others have experienced- mentally there seems to be a number of parallels between zipping around the track and playing a musical instrument. You have to think ahead to the next curve/measure, but not too far ahead or you may lose your place in the present; you have a certain pace/ rhythm you need to keep; practice and experience takes movements from the conscious to the sub-conscious; picking just the right line around a curve is like getting just the right phrasing; a really good performance of stringing all the lines together around the course is like a really good musical performance where the whole piece comes together; there's just a satisfaction and knowing when you get it right. I'll have to ask Toseland about this when he's in town in a few weeks...
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... what are your current riding goals and how are you going about achieving them?
This is a great question. One of my goals was to be able to get around the track at a decent speed with a good "flow", doing the things I know to do deliberately yet without having to over-think everything. My goal is to be fast enough that no one can pass me!
I don't have a way to measure lap times, so I don't know how consistent I really am. They mentioned they set up a beacon- I need to look into what type of gadget uses that and how it works.
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I've done several track days this year and feel like I'm making some progress. One thing I haven't done is make some plan like "I'm going to do this drill and that drill" etc. Do people do that!? I have another track day on Sep 5 or 6 so I'm thinking of what to work on next. I have been working on throttle, vision and BP issues in general.
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Greg
Thanks ALOT for the comeback...hearing about your experience and accomplishments WITHOUT crashing...is very reassuring. Very recently I have been having this internal debate now of whether at my age I really want to be doing this…maybe I should be taking up golf or something
But I really do love doing it!I started on my sportbike when I was 49, much earlier than the other guys.
I think you can do it without crashing although I have crashed once, but that was because (I think) I inadvertently hit the kill switch and got distracted in a turn with that "what the h*" feeling. I just had a track day Sunday and it was so much fun, as my riding is progressing and it was the most beautiful day (77, sunny, slight breeze).
I think that if you love doing something, you will be good at it.
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Hi Bullet
That is an excellent description of what we are looking for regarding using traction, thanks for that! Reading Stevo's posts I would say that I am at a similar level to him, I have also experienced a few little rear wheel slips and slides on the street but that is down to conditions rather than anything I have done, But whenever Its happened I have never really felt any warning signals from the bike, just got traction then not got traction, everything then feels like its in slow motion, I continue to obey throttle control rule #1 and it sorts itself out, thats a good feeling!
I also ride a 600 and from reading some other posts it seems that if my technique is good and its dry out there traction isn't going to be an issue on the exit of a turn anyway, knowing this lets me know that I could be going alot faster than I am currently whenever on track!
I will be at Rockingham next week for both days L2 and 3 and am looking forward to learning as much as I can from you guys over the course of the 2 days!
Cheers
Bobby
Now that you've been to the class, was there anything in particular you learned that addressed the original question about how to find or sense the traction limits?
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Ok, great, we're starting to get closer to some definition of your issue.
Ok, the one thing that students (and i'll be honest, I never thought about this way either until about a year back, when I started to push traction issues further), don't realise is that a very large part of the bikes stability comes from the rotational forces of the wheels. The higher the speed, the more stability the bike has (which is also one of the reasons its harder to turn a bike the faster you go), as the gyroscopic forces of the bike get ever hgiher.
As you've now started to think about this, you'll know that your going to in most situations starting to stand the bike up on the way out of a turn when you start to accelerate. At this point, what will happen with the bike if you start to reach traction limits is that it will start to slide or usually wobble a little. At this point, all that will happen to the bike is that the revs may rise a little, and the wheel will re-gain traction. As the rotational force of the wheel is still accelerating, it provides massive stability, so essentially the bike will want to stay upright and not just fall over mid turn.
There is an important part here Steve if you feel this phenomen, and to be honest, you really have to be trying on a 600 (in the dry) to get to this as long as your accelerating at the right part of the turn when your starting to stand the bike up and your following proper throttle control, is that you mustn't chop the throttle (or you can get highsided). you must keep the throttle at least where it is, (we call this checked throttle), or just keep rolling on.
Traction issues from the rear are very, very much controllable, (hence why you can see motogp riders spinning the bikes up out of turns), front end slides are much more difficult to handle and deal with. As long as you don't have huge lean angle coming out of a turn, your applying good throttle control, you'll always be able to deal with any rear end slide comfortably I assure you.
Now, clearly, I don't expct you to just take my word for it, when you get to level 4 of the school, you'll be able to ride the slide bike, and you'll see how high traction limits are on modern tyres, and how managable these things are with correct throttle control.
Hope this covers it of for you, and with some luck, we'll have some other students chime in at some point and share their experiences of rear traction issues and how they've managed them.
Bullet
Yeah, I don't think about the stability provided by wheels themselves but that is a big factor. And yes, I'm anxious to get back to school to try out those special bikes!
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for starting another thread, it just makes it easier for people to find at a later date through the search functions.
Level 1, great start, gives you the fundamental aspects that you need to get started. The 2 Step Turn drill you've learned is a really important drill and one that we build on a great deal on level 2 that will help you more with your perception of speed. Much about going quick becomes about feel (more of which in a moment), and your ability to give yourself enough space and time and be able to give your brain enough free attention. Some of the things you're talking about are covered in more depth in level 2, and so you'll understand the theory in more depth and the correct timing and application of the drills, as its essentially a combination of both.
Having personally had your bike, (it's a very friendly, fun bike that fab for learning on, almost cossets you), the hero blobs on the standard pegs are there to protect the (reasonably large) end can, so you'll always get them to touch down before anything primary touches down. If youv'e changed the standard can for an aftermarket, you'll find you can easily remove them and get plenty more lean angle with no fears whatsoever. Knee down is all about body positon and again is something you can have worked on the lean bike on level 2.
Now on to traction. Normally traction is of concern on the rear wheel, and people usually refer concern about traction when exiting turns, when applying throttle. The same does apply in much the same respect on thr front on the way into the turn. I have a couple of questions for you, see if we can get some more clarity about your thoughts and fears?
OK traction! What are your primary concerns of traction? Are you concerned about it into a turn? Middle of a turn? Exiting a turn? What signs do you think you'll get from the bike first before traction and potentially the thing you fear the most (i.e. a crash), happens?
If you could provide me your thoughts on these points, we'll see what we can help with.
Bullet
Bullet-
My bike is completely stock and has the factory exhaust can. The only thing I've spent money on is the tires, and I added frame sliders. I don't want to put any more funds into it just for the hell of it- I'd rather spend it on track days and school- I'm basically selfish and want to make me a better rider, not the bike a better bike! That said, if there something I need to do to the bike to make me ride better, then I would do it.
For traction, I think my fears are in the middle and end of the turn. In the middle, will it just go out from underneath me and how far can I lean over? I do remember though in school Keith asked how many times people had actually seen that of had that happen- the answer was essentially never. Also, at the exit, I'm careful about getting on the gas- I do it fairly gradually. I had the back end break loose once on the street going around a corner when the concrete was damp. My reaction was to not grab the steering tightly but just let it sort of self-correct, which it did.
Because I haven't had much problems with traction, my basic fear is that something sudden and unexpected would happen, that I don't sense or see it coming.
Steve
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With respect you to your question on traction limits, we can assist you with understanding that, but how about you start another seperate thread and we can try and help you with that a little.
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- knowing what speed you should be going and at what point,
One skill I have no handle on is knowing where my traction limits are. Am I at the edge of having the tires slip out from underneath me?
Steve,
Interesting points. Your the second person to say "knowing what speed I should going at what point" and i'm trying to discover how people set this? Claude also noted this earlier, and am trying to gauge what defines this for you?
With respect you to your question on traction limits, we can assist you with understanding that, but how about you start another seperate thread and we can try and help you with that a little. Could also let us know which levels you've done too?
Bullet
OK! Here's a new thread, although I'm sure there have been many in the past.
First, I've done the level 1 school in August 2007. I want to get to level 2 this year because I know that would help a lot but I'm not sure if will work out with my schedule. I did 3 track days last year and two so far this year.
As for a speed at some point, I can't say for sure how consistent I am each lap around the track, but I feel like I'm doing the exact same lines at the same speeds lap after lap. For reference points I pick imaginary spots on the track- there isn't necessarily some mark, but I just sort of triangulate my position in space based on the shape of the curve and all the things around, using my peripheral vision as a whole. It would be interesting to have a GPS system on my bike and then look at the data later to see how well my perceptions and reality match.
As for traction limits, I've not really had any bad moments with slipping or wiggling which makes me think that I'm not so close to the edge (CBR6000F4i w/Dunlop Qualifiers), but I have scraped footrest feeler pegs a few times so I know the bike is leaned over as far as it should go before bad things happen. The 3 times that has happened my knee didn't touch, so that makes me think my body position isn't quite right. But I hear racers on TV talking about working on their setup, "pushing the front end", etc. and I have no idea what that really means from any of my own experience; I can't relate. I realize they're a whole lot more experienced of course and I'm not trying to be them, but I want to learn to "listen" to the bike and I'm not hearing much.
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How do you rank the skills in order of importance---what's at the top and why?
Anyone can chime in on this, like to hear what newer and less experienced think as well as the more experienced.
Best,
Cobie
From my perspective as a less experienced rider, I would say:
- throttle control, to keep things smooth enough so other bad things don't happen,
- knowing what speed you should be going and at what point,
- looking in the right place,
- body position.
One skill I have no handle on is knowing where my traction limits are. Am I at the edge of having the tires slip out from underneath me? Could I be going 30 mph faster? I just don't know. I've done two track days this year so far and was feeling a bit frustrated being at a a plateau but I did get to the point where I could consistently drag my knee at the same spot on the same turn for what that's worth. Only on the left side for some reason. I felt like I had the bike practically on its side but it's hard to tell for sure- the way you feel and the way it looks doesn't always match. The 2nd day there was a photographer so I bought some pictures- I look like I'm practically sitting upright going for Sunday ride. But I didn't crash, which was important- my 2nd day I rode my bike out to the track because I didn't have access to the trailer I had used in the past.
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1. With limited sport bike experience would I be wasting my time. I am not a new rider but feel like I might be since I just started with sport bikes.
When I did level 1 in 2007 it was the second time I was on a track; had been riding sportbikes less than a year. I used to have a cruiser 9 years before that. I wasn't the fastest guy but I surely learned a lot. I would make sure you are comfortable riding your bike but wouldn't worry about having a lot of track experience. In some ways it's an advantage to learn early before you build up a lot of bad habits.
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Hi, I'm Grant from Aberdeen, Scotland.
Me and a mate are booked in for Level 1 & 2 at Silverstone on April 23 and 24.
To say I can't wait is an understatement!
Welcome Grant! Welcome to the forum; you will have a good time in class.
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Thought I'd bring this to the top and thank the people on the forum who mentioned the ABS diet. I got the book about 6 weeks ago and started eating better. Started 2 weeks later with the workouts and cardio. Dropped 17 lbs in 4 weeks and felt a lot better on the bike at the 2 day in Vegas last weekend. That's a gain of almost 2.5 hp for the upcoming race season, and it didn't cost me a dime! Looking forward to losing about 36 more over the next 8-10 weeks, best thing is I'm not hungry and I haven't had (nor do I crave) the 5 chocolate bars a week I used to eat. Thanks again.
That's impressive; I'm proud of you, glad for you.
I think it brings a decrease of stress and increased mental acuity too- do find that to be true?
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Are you going to be anywhere we can have a look at the bike? I say "we" but I mean Will.
I don't think so. My buddy and I were going to go to VIR and ride our bikes there on an extended trip in that region (but still use the school bike for the school day, in case we mess up we still have a ride home!) but he has a business trip that conflicts with that location and date. Still not sure which class I'm coming to yet.
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And to make matters worse, they are only going to be showing the highlights from the races. It is a one hour show that will encompass not only AMA but if I understand correctly, MotoGP and WSBK as well.
I think this is a massively disappointing approach and I feel as a domestic racing fan, I am being pushed aside so that some executives can somehow boost their profit margins. I cannot think of any other logical reason for this type of approach...
-scott
Looking at the speed tv website, it appears that the AMA races will be shown a week later. But the WSBK and MotoGP appears to be on the same weekend. WSBK shows the first race on Sunday and the others (race 2 and supersport) on Tuesdays. MotoGP lists on the same day but later in the evening. There could be a factor in that races in Europe give them time for editing, where races here don't. When I went to Level I class at mid-Ohio it was the Monday after an AMA race that Sunday. There were weather delays that Sunday so it missed the alloted time slot, so maybe they build in the delay just to be safe. Or yes, moto racing doesn't have the correct priority.
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Yes, I'm enjoying WSBK this year too. Good racing, in hi-def too!
What station shows it in HD?
We have comcast cable, and there is a Speed HD channel now.
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Alright. I know it's beating a dead horse, but I saw something today that I've never seen until World Supersport in Qatar (one of the best races I've seen). Sofuoglu was burning into a corner and out came the right leg. Kinda takes out the repositioning their foot theory?
I'm sure this can't be the right answer because I've done this, but I've stretched out my right leg (not sure why just that side) for a second or two because it was close to cramping. When this thread first started, that was my initial thought but I figured it was just me not being stretched out well. I don't know what the muscle on the outer side of the leg is called, but sometimes being in the squatted position up on the pegs causes it to get tight. I've ridden for long periods of time on the road with no problem, so if it happens again I'll have to see if it tied to other things like certain body position, locking onto the tank, etc.
Yes, I'm enjoying WSBK this year too. Good racing, in hi-def too!
But I really do love doing it!
Body Position To Knee Down Advice Please
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
My advice would be to not worry about dragging your knee just yet. I'm not that tall and I wondered if I was at a disadvantage compared to guys with long legs but I don't think it's that big of a factor. I'm the same height as Stoner, Lorenzo and Biaggi and I too eventually figured it out, but I wasn't after a half dozen track days and a school session. I don't think trying to drag your knee on public roads is a great idea with things like sand, gravel, animals, etc. around- wait till you get to the track.
For countersteering I'd suggest finding an empty road or big empty parking lot where you can concentrate on just this one thing. Go slow, 50km/h is OK, an just gently push on one side of the bars, then the other. Then you can more clearly see that if you push on the left, the bike goes to the left etc.