Jaybird180

…and after a bit of inquiry they say their hardware isn’t suitable for our intended application.

Deleted: see below

@Cobie Fairfirst it was Thighmaster, now it’s ballet? I can’t imagine what’s next 🤣

I found a company that makes sensors for biometric pressure data. I sent them an inquiry and will let you know what I get back.

...and had I checked my email, I would have seen the marketing email I got from Dunlop 90 mins ago. They must've seen me check their website or Google search the tires.

Sorry if I'm rehashing, wasn't my intention. I should have had some coffee this morning, but I didn't. No, I can't say that I have experienced that. Only time I felt a tire skate was riding in the wet at NJMP few years ago when they had sealer all over the place- I got discernible perturbations in the front end. I might have shared the video of that highside with you and in retrospect I shouldn't have been on the track, there was standing water and streams in some places. Otherwise, I'm blank on the sensation of a skating tire, cold or wet. I don't ride below 60F and even then, I start off slow with gentle lean angles and work my way up. I don't generally have any prohibitions about riding in the wet, approaching it similarly to a cold day/surface. I think about 3 years ago, my last session at the school was after a thunderstorm at ViR and I pretty much had an empty track and it was great! I slowed my overall pace accordingly because I don't really have a sense for how fast can I go in the conditions.

Not sure we we are in the discussion, but I'd like to address my perceived inability to feel the tire's traction.

There's a reddit discussion about the Q5 being a replacement for the Q4 to solve a wear issue. The tire seems to be available at online vendors. I would think CSS could get them as a Dunlop vendor. Roadracing World is calling it a track day tire. The tire is listed on Dunlop's website. And the marketing people have published a commercial about it: That's all I got.

Since a tire will never reach similar temperatures, I would imagine the skating sensation would be ever present? I recall a conversation I had with a buddy about waiting until the tire is warmed. We were on the same size and model Michelin 2CT. He was believer in the magic of the tires and wouldn’t heed any warnings. Next time I saw him, he had low sided and then had become more skeptical of cold tires. Although I could feel the change in those tires on track I am not sensitive enough on the street. I recall a session where you @Cobie Fair yelled out to me that I needed to get the tire working, that I was too timid; it was still early in the session. I’m glad you did that- I am still working on finding that good pace to work the tire up to temperature but even when I get up to my full pace, I still don’t have a trust in the tire. I still forget to do the hand check on the temperature of the tires. I do agree that it’s a valuable tool to get a sense of how it’s working. I’ve previously been looking at the surface tearing to get an idea of how I’m working the tires.

Is the skating sensation more pronounced based on speed? Probably. And that's the rub: not going so fast as to make unnecessary risky, yet fast enough to feel the tire skate. How does one sneak-up on the sensation? Of course, ignore all of this if skating isn't speed induced.

I’ve ridden the No BS bike 2 or 3 times now. It really drives the point home.

In my industry, before a publication is released to the public every word has been “refined” by different internal interests. Sometimes the end product bears only a vague similarity to the original. In the case of a tire manufacturer, I’m willing to bet that any temperature recommendation discussion starts in Engineering and ends with Public Affairs. A prior Dunlop release came dangerously close to “debunking” heat cycles as a myth by excluding Dunlop from the phenomenon as a concern for the tire consumer. That discussion can be found on this forum. I take note that no tire manufacturer makes warmers. I also take note that motorcycling being a niche market has little in-fighting among product manufacturers, presumably because every dollar spent in the industry benefits everyone. The Q series tires are marketed to performance oriented riders and retains an ability to operate in dual environments , street and track. It would have been nice if MotoAmerica would have retained a 600/1000 stock class, running the Q tires and leave the slicks to Superbike only. All that said, I scratch my head at the warmer recommendation. A street rider wouldn’t use them and although I’ve read reports that they do fine at A-level trackday pace, I haven’t personally seen many riders continue to use them, instead opting for more expensive rubber.

I’d be interested in knowing how to tell if the tire is ready to perform. When I was on Michelin there was a discernible feel to the tire, but not so (to me) on Dunlop.

While we wait for other participants, Josh Hayes has returned to racing at ViR. I won’t spoil it, but it was said that he had been training.

Trackday organizers here are getting less permissive about inside passing in the braking zone. One organization divides riders into 4 skill groups and only allows inside passing in the 4th group. While the objective is safety, I think it's going to have unintended consequences in rider skill, judgement and higher traffic areas but I digress... The fact you are able to observe this, gives you tangible data about your relative cornering capability and validates your plans for that corner and shortens your learning curve.

With your level of experience, you use 3-mos as a baseline for yourself. Do you have any thoughts (or maybe even some data) about how frequent mere mortals like myself should get to the track to maintain or improve proficiency?

I once overheard a conversation that the act of turning in reduces the speed of the bike. I've also heard that an acceptable definition of the apex is the slowest part of the turn. Do you want to use braking to set the speed for the TP or the Apex?

I’ve probably ridden ViR about a dozen times in my lifetime. I feel like I should know it. Parts of the track are familiar, other parts seem new with just a memory of having traveled that asphalt before. Now that I’ve had a week to think about my 2days with CSS there, I recall the semblance of some words that I spoke to my coach when asked about a particular turn at the end of a session: I feel that I spend too much time looking for the TP and then start looking for the Apex RP too late (and then feel rushed, and overbrake or blow the turn, etc). This was a clue, now I am beginning to unravel it. ViR has it’s fair share of blind sections of pavement, and the sun sometimes reflects at the places where you want to put your eyes, track memory certainly helps. For me, it’s toward the end of day 2 where I begin to feel like I remember where I want to be and what I want to do next. This is about the time where I have enough attention to be able to articulate what’s happening and almost enough to listen to what’s coming out of my own mouth (LoL). I discovered that I don’t drive on the road this way. The way I use my eyes on the street is very different from the way I use them on the track. Although I can, I don’t 2-step, 3-step on the street in the car and I occasionally do it on a bike, but not usually. Which is correct? TOTW1 pg2 it says: “Highways are constructed so that motorists can travel from Point A to Point B very easily…A racetrack is another sort of beast. Not much of anything is done for your convenience. The designers have purposely constructed a course…to fool and challenge (the rider).” 100% in agreement here. Buried in my subconscious was the idea, and I find on p19 wherein it says: “You must work from the end back to the beginning of the turn to establish your product. Decide in advance, before you go in to the turn, where you are going to exit. You must be able to “see” the product of the turn in your mind as you enter it. This enables you to keep the pieces and parts of the turn working toward that product. This overview allows you to figure out each step necessary to arrive at the product or destination.” This accurately describes how I drive on the public road. This next sentence that follows describes how I felt at ViR: ”You can become hopelessly lost by continuing to “look” at a turn from beginning to end instead of from the end back to the beginning.” This idea of working the turn backward has my mind going. I am now “looking” at this completely different, and now this sentence on p99 of TOTWII has new meaning for me: “Am I saying to abandon RPs? Yes, when they are just distracting things and not true Reference Points.” I can tell you, I don’t recall ever having read that sentence this way before now. One of the things I observed is that when I can use a piece of pavement and decide that I want to use that piece of pavement it becomes an asset. At all other times, it’s a liability to me. I believe that once I get a handle on this vision thing, I will have overcome the obstacles occupying my attention and can reach a new level in my riding. The question is: How do I get my eyes to work on the track the way they do on the twisties near home? On the track, my limits are my visual skills. On the road, the limits are checked by the law, the idiots, vermin, debris and compromised pavement.

It's still a bit vague for me, but I did find that my willingness to DRIVE off corners has improved A LOT and is solid. I also think I'm better at some of the vision skills than I have been in the past. James, my coach said (paraphrasing) that I have solid fundamentals and he has no concerns that I would make some major error (we rode that session just after a thunderstorm had passed). Keith, in my final consulting session brought this up (he was there for the feedback) by reiterating what James said and opined that James isn't into making people 'feel good', that if he said it, I can take it to the bank. This means I need to work on some self-doubt to let those abilities shine through. After a conversation with a friend this morning, I now have more honesty about my personal expectations. I expected to take every element I've ever maximized and put them all together into a track session and to do them consistently and automagically - nirvana. I expect too much (too soon). I am convinced that despite not getting all of the details right, that looking at the big picture my riding has in-fact improved. I am safer, cleaner and more intentional. The result is that I am also a lot less tired after 2 days at speed and my body doesn't ache all over like it used to. Ian even asked why I always look so calm. That's an intangible improvement and counts too. 😃 Thanks for the inventory exercise. Any chances of getting you on the East Coast?

Ding, ding, ding, ding!!!! You win the prize! That was my takeaway from the School this time around. I don't have enough frequency of big-track time or training to solidify anything and I'm starting to see that many of the skills are perishable.

Oh, how I wish I had printed and brought this thread with me to school. We could have used this as a starting point.

Some forward progress and then some regression...ah that's the way it goes. I was naive to think otherwise.

Now having watched your video, I think that camera angle is gold.

I was right behind you and saw this happen in real time. You'd passed me about 3/4 a lap earlier and I was working on vision drills. The timing was perfect to help me work on that. Sorry you broke your rhythm, we were moving like an accordion for awhile. When you went off, it was a good confirmation for me that I had my eyes in the right place and I could even see you miss the T7 turn point out of my periphery.

I believe that I'm a better rider than I was just a few years ago. Some new understandings, a couple CSS school days over the last few years (okay more than a couple), and a trackday or few thrown in. I've used the level groups with an organization to give me a target on my progress. It seems like that organization isn't riding the same tracks in 2022 as they used to. I'll need a new carrot. Chasing lap times for me doesn't provide an emotional hit, no immediate satisfaction. I get great satisfaction when I know I have a well-done corner, a well-done section and I begin to string together a few good laps. What do you use to keep you coming back for more?