mugget
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Posts posted by mugget
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I don't think you have to specifically be cornering in order to add to the time quota, you could spend that time studying in an effort to improve, analysing video or photos of you on bike and that sort of thing.
I think I get what you're saying - there's so many different aspects to riding that sometimes you've just gotta take a step back, sit down and think something through. I can definitely see how that could be beneficial and improve someone as a rider, but you won't actually see the benefit until the next time you go for a ride and try it out. Practice is practice, thinking is thinking... but for sure, you can't really do one without the other!
Fair point Releeuw46 - everyone has different goals and there's no point in pushing the 'practice' side of things to a point where riding becomes so onerous that you no longer have joy in it.
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Well, never say never, you could always become "jack of all trades, master of one".
Good point about track days. That's one thing that changed so much with how I approach track days. Used to just be that I went out to them with the aim of "going faster", but now I have specific points to work on each time. But that requires much more concentration... is it possible for concentration to cause bloodshot eyes?
I felt good, but somehow managed to finish those two days with fairly bloodshot eyes.Another thing that really stood out to me on my recent track days - if you don't go out with your own plan, and you end up just following everyone else around, you'll be really screwed. I took notice of the turn points that different people were using, and for the most part they all turned way way too early. For someone who didn't know better - they would go out there and just follow other people and try to "find the line" or "learn the racing line" - and they'd end up learning the slow way around!
A funny thing - I overheard a bunch of guys that were pitted next to me, at the end of the day they were raving to each other, all excited about how they're scraping knees and boots and everything else (as if that were a measure of speed or skill). Mind you, they were in a slower group. It was an interesting insight into the mind of an enthusiast track day rider. Meanwhile I'm yet to scrape a knee or even use my rear tyre to the edges, but I have moved into a faster group, poor me.
Call me old fashioned, but I just think that going fast is fun. 
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That's really strange. Have you ever had a front end slide previously? If not, it would be possible that the front had momentarily lost traction and was sliding. But if you have experienced a front slide before I'm guessing you would know what it feels like...
My preference would have been to go straight to my Coach and get that sorted, but anyway... if it happened to me my checklist would be something like this:
- Did it only happen once?
- Did it only happen at one corner, or at different places around the track?
- Was the track surface good where it happened?
- Was I only pushing on the inside handlebar (or both)?
- Was I moving my body while turning?
- Did I accidentally roll the throttle while making the steering input?
- Would the shape of the track affect my steering input (ie. negative camber, top of a hill etc.)
Personally I like to play it safe and so I don't even attempt a quick steer unless I'm well off the brakes. I do sometimes trail the front brake a little into the corner, but then the steering input is definitely not quick.
I wouldn't think it's because you didn't have enough weight on the front tyre. The only situation where I can see that being a problem is if you had been accelerating very hard and made the quick steer input very quickly before the front wheel had a chance to settle (or some other situation that would cause a similar result). When I was doing the Quick Steer drill I was coasting up to one corner for at least 80 metres or so, then quick steering with no problem at all, no braking beforehand. But the track was dead flat.
From what you said I am guessing that it only happened once? Was it a left or right hand corner? And do you remember if you were only pushing on the inside handlebar, or were you also pulling on the outside handlebar?
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Hi All,
My Dad mentioned something interesting to me during the last week - he heard a radio program that was talking about becoming an expert in a given field. Some may have heard this figure mentioned before, but it seems like the consensus is that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become a true expert. I started to think about that from the point of view of riding motorcycles (everything has something to do with motorcycles, to me at least
), and especially cornering. Yes, there's alot of practice time needed, but that's not what I thought was really interesting...The really interesting part is what qualifies as practice towards those 10,000 hours. The point was made that it must be concentrated, deliberate practice. So applying that to riding - in order to be doing real practice we must be concentrating and making a deliberate effort. If we're just out for a cruise, enjoying the roads and scenery - that does not count as practice.
It just made me realise how important it is to make a deliberate, conscious effort to practice something whenever I'm out for a ride. Even if it's just a run down to the shops, maybe I only practice on one or two corners. But every bit helps, because that kind of practice isn't easy to do for long sustained periods, and 10,000 hours is alot of time. Otherwise it's easy to switch over to "auto pilot" and not only does that put a stop to improvement in our riding, but it's very easy to slip into bad habits again.
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by their standards i have a sh*tty bike , by my standards they have sh*tty abilities.
I like it.
But to be fair, being on a lighter machine you will have a larger safety margin for a given speed... but I know what you're saying.
How to know when you nailed a corner... I did that while attending CSS Level 1 earlier this week. Only did it once the entire day, in fact it is probably the only time I've done it in my entire life... but I had turned in and was on the throttle, then hit my apex and it just felt good, I thought "perfect!". Kept the throttle on all the way out of the turn without running wide on the exit, the next corner linked together perfectly as well and I just did it all again. Two perfect corners in a row... you know it when you do it!
If I had to define it, I would say that you really nailed it when you only make one steering input, open the throttle smoothly and without hesitation, make your apex, and hold your line on the exit. You can't ask for any more than that, right?
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Is this a pic from your recent track day following CSS L1?
No, not me.
I'm still working towards that...
It's interesting to note that despite riding faster now than ever before, I'm yet to put my knee down. (Not that 'knee down' is a goal for me, it will just happen when it happens.) It's a funny thing that when you start riding effectively you don't use as much lean angle etc. Riding faster and faster, yet keeping more and more lean angle & safety margin in reserve... But that would be a subject for an entirely new thread...
If we separate the lock on part from this question and just look at the weighting, since both pegs are connected to the frame, doesn't that minimize the importance of where the weight goes?
CF
This may not be an accurate way to think about it, since a bike always has cornering forces applied - but... I visualise the red lines in the above diagram as an actual physical structure, say it was created out of steel tube. Now if you set it on the ground and try to balance on it - which peg will you use? You could probably succeed using the 'outside peg', but if you try to balance on the 'inside peg' leant over like that... not a chance. That's a very simplistic example relating to stability, but may not even be valid once you factor in cornering forces...
Great example with the barbell, Hotfoot. Makes sense to me.
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Thinking about the question of peg weighting when leaned over at speed, the best explanation of the effect on traction that I can come up with is the 'box' analogy I mentioned on the previous page. Hopefully this diagram will better explain my reasoning:
Thinking at extremes makes it easier for me to understand, so imagine that the rider in the above picture is right on the limit of traction. If you look at the angle of the outside peg to the tyre contact patch - it's basically straight on top of it. If I can use the 'box' analogy again - weighting the outside peg would be the equivalent of pushing down on the top of the box, which isn't very likely to make the box slide along the floor.
But if you look at the inside peg, any weight there will practically be pushing at the contact patch from the side. This would be the equivalent of pushing on the side of a box - it's going to slide along the floor.
Does that make sense? What do you think?
It's entirely possible that I have it completely wrong as well!
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With the rider locked-on, the net forces on the bike are determined only by the rider's relative position w.r.t. the bike. A lateral displacement of the rider to the inside does have a a slight leaning effect, which is the equivelent of a streering torque of +1..4 Nm. Since most bikes have a small negative steering torque at typical lean angles and path curvatures, an optimal hang-off position will completely balance the steering torque, resulting in neutral steering.
Hey, no cheating. People like me require 'plain english', please.
I'm a bit confused by your last sentence... do you agree that a motorcycle with a constant speed requires no steering input to maintain a path through a corner?
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With the bike leaned over and with any decent speed (say over 50mph) how much will it matter which peg is weighted? Both are connected to the frame...any engineers want to take as stab a this? (try to esplain in real English for the geometrically challenged).
CF
Ahhhh... just to clarify I have only been talking specifically about reduced traction situations like hard acceleration (enough to make the tyre slip), or riding on dusty/sandy/dirty surfaces.
If we're just talking about a relatively sedate ride, not pushing the limits of traction, then in that case I'd say no - peg weighting would have (very) minimal effect, if any.
Some years ago after I read about outside peg weighting, I used to think that somehow taking weight off it would be bad (causing a loss of traction). Well I eventually got over that idea. I remember one WSBK race, it was the final chicane at Magny-Cours and Troy Bayliss (probably his last year in WSBK) was exiting that section and as he was making the final left corner his outside foot came off the peg. Of course that means that he would have been using a fair amount of weight on the inside peg to hold himself on the bike, and he didn't crash. Which put paid to the idea that the outside peg needs to be weighted all the time while the bike is leant over.
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I'd say yes absolutely it matters which peg is weighted. And just to clarify - the only reason we're talking about the affect on the rear is because we're focusing on acceleration out of a corner, right? Because most of the weight/forces etc. are transferred to the rear tyre under acceleration? But I'd also say that it could have a big affect on both front and rear tyres mid-corner as well. It would make sense that as the lean angle decreases, the difference between outside/inside peg weighting would not be as much, you would expect to be able to transfer the weight to either without much change.
Thinking about this some more, I realised where I may be able to use some peg weighting. Just about every time I open the throttle to drive out of a corner, the rear tyre will slip just a little bit. Never even occurred to me that I could do something to stop it, I thought that was just the limit of the tyres (Power Pure - definitely a street tyre, the Michelin usage chart recommends 20% track riding). So I'm guessing the right time to add some weight to the rear peg is mid-corner, right at the moment (or just before) the throttle is opened? I will try and experiment with this and report back with my results.
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Cheers for that, good to know. Not that I have warmers or anything, I stick to the old school method of parking my bike in the sun to warm the tyres.
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Hmmm... I've gotta get up to Level 3 and see what this is all about...
I think I just have a different idea of what 'weighting the peg' means. To me, if I told someone I was weighting the peg, I would mean that the majority of my weight was on the footpeg (rather than the seat). But as I ride now I just 'lock in' my outside leg, but I am well and truly sat on the seat with the majority of my weight. I wouldn't say that I 'push' on the outside peg at all.
I've never had a problem when moving my body to get setup for a corner. I always do that when the bike is upright, so it's just as if I'm making a movement to 'stand up' with both feet. Then at the end of that movement I make a quick check with the foot which will be to the outside of the corner to make sure my foot/ankle/knee are 'locked in'.
But I'll see if I can have a play around and find out what you guys are talking about.
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Wow - thread resurrection!
But yes, very important topic. I've often thought about confidence and it's role in motorcycling. I came to the conclusion that if there was a pro racer, but they were very nervous and not at all confident for some reason - racing against a novice who was overflowing with confidence, I would put my money on the novice.
I have often wondered if confidence is actually one of the most important attitudes/attributes when it comes to motorcycling. Thinking back on my own experience, it's amazing how blind confidence has brought me through difficult situations. I think if you're confident, your thoughts won't even go to SR's. And as long as you don't lock up and target fixate etc. most times the bike will sort itself out and it'll all be fine. Of course that needs to be real confidence, since you don't really "think" about SR's, they're more of an involuntary/sub-conscious reaction as the name suggests. Which is why having a crash and knocking your confidence can bring about a whole lot of unpleasant and uncomfortable feelings when you get back on a bike...
I will do anything possible to avoid losing confidence. If I crash, I will start to track down the problem as soon as possible. Once I know the problem I can make a mental note and make sure it doesn't happen again. Then I know that I can stop it from happening again, confidence restored. At least that is the theory. It's not always so easy in practice...
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Mmmm... Speedy Triple... hold on tight to your license.
warregl - dangerous comments, some people may think that what followed you home and what you were dating were one and the same.
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I'm using one of the slightly older Forcefield back protectors. Why? Because I needed one for this particular weekend, only had time to visit one shop, and that is what they had in stock. Most track day organisations recommend/require back protectors for the faster groups and I was moving up so I guess riding faster is the real reason why I needed one. Thinking about adding a Forcefield chest protector as well. Probably some hip & leg protection in the future also. I've never yet crashed on track, but as the speed increases so does the potential for bad consequences if you get something wrong.
As (one of) my personal motto goes, "I don't plan to crash, but I do plan to make it home."
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Great idea for another sub-forum!
On the subject of helmets: another good tip is to not rest your helmet on top of the fuel cap/tank. Reason being that fuel vapours will likely rise and can eat out the foam insides. Maybe not an issue for short periods, but if my bike was in storage or sitting for weeks at a time I would not leave the helmet on the tank...
The local track day organiser here in Brisbane will actually cut the helmet straps off if a rider had an obviously big impact and is going to hospital etc. Which I think is a good idea. It's not worth the risk of someone else (or even the same rider) trying to use the helmet again. That would be like riding in a set of leathers that have a hole worn in backside... Helmets are just another wear item, and it's good to keep that in mind when deciding how much to pay for one. (Just talking about obvious big impacts here... for example if the rider is K.O'd, no way they would go around cutting everyone's helmet straps after a small spill.
)I know that alot of people say "how much is your head worth? Cheap helmet = cheap brain." or something to that effect. My very first helmet was a Shoei X1000, definitely not cheap... but then when you have to buy another the choice could be an entirely economic one. Or if you're a frequent crasher you may think twice about spending $1,000 on another helmet a month after you just bought one... Personally I am comfortable with cheaper brands like KBC. They still have the appropriate certification, they are well within my budget so I'm happy on all fronts. I'd rather ride those 3 or 4 track days instead of having to skip them to afford an expensive helmet.
I think it's safe to say that the main difference with more expensive helmets will be comfort and features. I've noticed that cheaper helmets are more noisy (they let more wind in), are bulkier (a consideration if you ride in traffic alot and your helmet touches your shoulder each time you try to look around), the fittings on the vents & buckles etc. are usually a bit more tedious (my KBC is very difficult to remove the visor, whereas Shoei are very easy, Shoei also has super-easy buckles but KBC is a bit more fiddly).
But in the end it may just come down to fit. Some people will only fit a certain brand because of their head shape, some people just have very large or small heads that are only accommodated for among more expensive brands. So in the case of fit, cheaper or expensive is irrelevant - you've just got to buy whatever fits your head.
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Ahh... the chain lube question. This ranks up there with the old "should I use synthetic oil" question.
I've heard stories from people that would seem to back up cleaning and not cleaning. Even using lube and no lube. Some people say they clean and lube their chain often, I have heard from one person who actually cleaned his chain but never used lube, and others who never clean - but just keep adding lube as it looks like it's needed. Even someone who cleaned and lubed so often and they feel that it actually shortened the life of their chain.
That white lube on a new chain is just there to protect it in storage/transport etc. I'm pretty sure the chains I've installed both came with manufacturer instructions saying to clean that gunk off the chain before use, using kerosine or similar. I used kerosine applied to a rag, then wiped down the chain.
I think most chain manufacturers will also say that WD-40 is fine to use as a cleaner, but I have never used it because of hearings stories of it penetrating the o-rings and separating the lube from the internal surfaces and then you've got no way to re-apply lube in there.
Keep in mind that the single purpose of using lube on a sealed chain is to stop the seals (o-rings, x-rings etc.) from drying out and failing (that's when a chain will develop tight/binding links). You can't actually add lube to them because they're sealed, and the contact surfaces (chain rollers, sprocket teeth) do not require lube. Ideally I'd like a needle-nose applicator, but instead we get aerosol cans that just spray the stuff as wide as possible. Go figure?
I suppose each person needs to come up with their own maintenance plan according to how and where they use their bike.
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You can get some cool warmers here: Dunlop Logo Warmers
Are you sure they work okay? I've always thought you want hot warmers?
Another question about fit - is it true to say that a tyre warmer should be large enough to be in contact with the rim? I remember hearing something about warmers saying that they shouldn't heat only the tyre, but also the actual wheel to help maintain the temperature?
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Nice Tony - I can't wait to see some 1199's out on the road and track!
Well my list would go like this:
- K5 GSX-R600 (yes, first bike - didn't last too long unfortunately...)
- Z750 (my only bike owned from new, was very fun, but I have sportbikes in my blood...)
- K5 GSX-R600 (I started off with a fairly shocking record, a new bike each year for the first 3 years I had been riding )
- K6 GSX-R1000 (Still have this one, it's a keeper. Had it for about 3 years now, used it for commuting, touring, track days, everything.)
- XR400 motard (I have this one mainly for around town. Had this for a bit over a year.)
In the future the only bike I want to add is an RS250. If I especially like the 2T experience and feel a bit mental I'd go for a CR500 motard.
I plan to keep the Gixxer until it stops running, at which time I am open to the idea of owning an electric superbike...
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Ahhh... the old question of 'peg weighting...
When I first read that part in Twist I spent an age thinking about it as well. The conclusion I came to was that it had more to do with traction. I may be wrong, because I haven't been game to keep experimenting with this - but one afternoon on my way home from work I kind of 'stomped' on the inside 'peg mid-corner. It made the bike slide (maybe it helped that it was a bit of a dusty corner as well). No matter how much weight I put onto the outside 'peg I have never had a problem with losing traction. Try it yourself if you're game. I'm interested to hear other people's experience with that as well.
I visualise it this way - imagine that you have a large heavy box sitting on the floor. In this case we're relating it to cornering, so we don't want it to slide. But let's say you have an energetic young child nearby who is not going to leave the box alone, but he will either push on it or sit/jump on it depending what you tell him to do. If he pushes on the side of the box, it will obviously slide (and we don't want that). But no matter how long he sits on top of it, or how hard he jumps on the top of it it won't budge. Now applying that to a bike: if you picture a bike at mid-corner (from either the front or the rear), the inside footpeg is actually to the side of the tyre contact patch. Therefore if you put alot of weight on that inside footpeg, it's as if you're pushing the side of that box. But if you picture the outside 'peg it is above the contact patch, so if you stomp on the outside 'peg it's as if you're jumping on top of the box - much less affect on the traction (if any).
Does that make sense? That's how I've always thought of it. Anyway I've got enough to think about with my riding at the moment, I'm not going to think about footpeg weighting until I get to do the CSS level that covers it. I still manage to be comfortably 'locked in' on the bike, but if I had to put a figure on it, I'd say that 10% or less of my weight is going to the outside 'peg, the rest is simply sitting on the seat.
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Hey Deep,
I think what JeF4y means is that if you're 'pulling' yourself onto the bike you will have a tighter grip on the 'bars because you will actually be trying to pull yourself closer to them to hold yourself on the bike (as if you're trying to do a 'pull up' with the handlebars). But if you are pushing up with your legs that will keep you positioned on the bike, which means you can relax your grip on the 'bars yet still be stable on the bike (that will be more as if you were doing 'squats', to put it in exercise/weightlifting terms).
Proper body position helps alot with that, and if you're using proper BP it will actually be much much less tiring. One racer has been quoted as saying that you should grip the 'bars as if you're holding a little bird. You don't want it to get away, but you don't want to hold so tight that you hurt the little fella. However I don't use much strength from my legs either, my body position allows me to keep my entire body relatively relaxed most of the time.
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It would be interesting (and entertaining) to see a top fuel dragster equipped with both types of tires...
Not quite in the same league, but you might find this interesting. A reasonably powerful car (480bhp) which usually has 255 section tyres, running on 125 section space savers.
edited to add: yes the tyres did eventually delaminate, check here for more discussion about that (skip ahead to around 2:40):
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If this is true I'd like to "challenge" the cornering guru Keith Code to share his opinion on the topic. As far as my memories don't play funny tricks with me I think Keith said in a movie of his that we have to roll on the throttle evenly smoothly and continuously throughout the turn so that we offload the front tyre *AND* make use of rear tyre's larger contact patch.
I tried this technique thanks to CSS and it definitely makes miracles. BUT is the second part of the sentence true? Can we really load the rear tyre more than the front because it has a larger patch OR do we just have to offload the front as it needs grip to counteract cornering forces and to also steer the bike vs the rear tyre only having to counteract the cornering forces?
Yes, I think that's still accurate to say that rolling on the throttle causes a transition that makes use of the rear tyre's larger contact patch. If you don't roll on, you won't have as much weight on the rear tyre, therefore it won't be as 'squashed' and won't have as large a contact patch on the ground. Right?
As discussed, there are a lot of factors that determine how a tyre will work. It's not just about the technical aspect that we've touched on here...
Have a think about this: how many times have you seen a motorcycle and rider (racing, or maybe just showing off) exiting a turn and they are still leaned over and the front wheel is off the ground? Compare that with the number of times you've seen someone braking into a corner and the rear wheel is off the ground... while the bike is leaning in?
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Great info, Timmer!
The below especially makes sense, never thought about it that way before.
For the same engine, and assuming it doesn't knock, you will actually make MORE horsepower with the 85 octane fuel!
Getting Locked On To The Tank
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
For some reason your diagram wasn't loading properly for me, but I went searching for some images of the new R1 and from what I can see the tank does look a bit tricky... as if it just tapers from the bottom to the top with no cutouts? At least they really don't stand out in photos...
If you can't move your rearsets to adjust your knee position, maybe worth considering adding a little bit of a foam stopper (or similar) above your knee position to give you something to lock into? Or can you play around with your body position, maybe moving where you sit to give your knee a better angle to 'point' into the tank?
That's a strange one though. Never noticed that on the R1 before, seems like a really strange way to build a tank!