YellowDuck

Your butt seems to be in about the correct place (maybe even a bit too far off the seat?), but your upper body position needs work. To my eye, you could slide back further from the tank, straighten, your outside arm a bit, and get your head down and further to the inside. Normally your face should be just back of where your mirror would be. Currently your head is nearly in line with the centerline of the steering head - it should be much farther to the inside. Once you get your upper body more to the inside you could probably also rotate your hips a bit into the direction of the corner. Are you a bit on the short side? That can really make it harder to get your body mass over to the inside, especially on a Ducati which usually has a long reach to the bars. Not sure about the 848 specifically.

Yes, wonderful. Really well explained. My major issue in achieving the ideal position is that with my butt in the correct (I think) position, my knee has no contact with the tank - only the inside of my thigh is contacting the back of the tank, and only at one point. In my case I think that the problem mostly derives from the fact that the bike wasn't designed for that sort of riding, and the seat and tank are shaped for a specific style more than for an optimum sport riding position in corners. I may swap out the seat unit for something narrower and see if that helps the geometry at all.

I am hoping to get to this point in the near future. I would love to take up street riding again, but I found it so hard not to push the limits of safety and the law. If I do get back on the street it will be on something with very low hp, maybe a V7 or even a Royal Enfield. Putt, putt, putt, putt.....

I'm no expert, but I can certainly sympathize with you, having done a lot of my sportbike riding in the north Georgia mountains and a little bit also in the hills around Rimini, Italy and down towards Misano. I am a bit surprised by your problems on the uphills. I always felt like a hero on uphill corners because if I overcooked it I could just roll off and let gravity do the braking. To me the only difference there was that I could stay on the throttle longer and harder, which was an easy adjustment. The downhills were murder - too much weight on the front tire, too much extra braking taking away from the traction available for cornering. Even difficulty keeping loose on the bars with gravity trying to push all of my weight forward onto my hands. That said, all of that mountain riding experience predated my initiation to track riding and racing. At my current skill level, no doubt I would have a different set of problems, maybe more similar to yours. Sorry, no help to you I know. Just sympathizing! To be honest, the concept of trying to explore the sport riding performance envelope on public roads is not one I can really get my head around anymore. In my mind, no speed that could be considered prudent, with oncoming traffic and close proximity to guardrails, requires much in the way of advanced track riding skills. For me they are two different worlds.

Sponsorship package? Singing with the Eagles? How do I enter your universe?

Very similar to the previous round. When I had something to chase, or knew I had to make up a pile of time, I got faster and faster. When I am in front with clear track, I sometimes slow down. I haven't the faintest idea why. Obviously it's psychological. Possibly when I am behind I have nothing to lose (or, less to lose), so I take more risks, but when I am in front I am very conscious of the danger of chucking it away with a stupid error. Or maybe chasing someone is just more exciting and it stimulates me. I really don't know. Obviously in this last race I did put together some really good laps at the very end. I am not sure where that came from.

Maybe, but as I wrote, I am pretty mindful of the fact that at this point the only things that can keep me from the championship are a DNS or DNF. I'm really only taking passes that I can make with a wide margin of safety...and going over the bike with a fine-tooth comb to try to eliminate any possible mechanical issues. Clutch is back together with loctite...

I just learned yesterday that Bob has purchased a 749 ( ). That should make things interesting if he has it race-ready for the September round.

...and how flexible are you in the hips? Some people (e.g., my brother) just can't stick their leg out sufficiently perpendicular to the bike. But then of course the stoopid fast guys (MotoGP etc) end up having to bring their leg back in some to give themselves enough cornering room.

What is this "loctite" you speak of? I don't pretend to have optimized my lines or maximized my corner speeds on any of the track layouts. I am sure that there are still full seconds to be had just in riding skill without touching the limitations of the suspension or tires. On one of the corners you speak of (leading onto the long back straight) though there is some very poor asphalt directly at the apex, so I purposely avoid that. There are quite a few possible lines through that corner at my current corner speed but yes, as I manage to crank it up a bit a more "ideal" line is going to be necessary. By the right hander just after the straight, do you mean the very long "carousel" turn? That corner is so long and so wide that, again, there are about a dozen suitable lines through there at my current speed. Even at pro pace there are lots of options in that one. Our class designations get a bit complicated, but here is what the rulebook says for BOTT LW and BOTT HW: Lightweight: 800cc Liquid Cooled Multi Valve 1100cc Air Cooled OHV 1400cc Pushrod Unlimited Four Stroke Single Heavyweight: 1400cc Liquid Cooled Multi Valve 1650cc Air Cooled OHV Unlimited Pushrod So, multivalve liquid cooled twins are LW (748, 749, SV650, Kawasaki 650 twins). My bike makes it in because it is air cooled and under 1100 cc. The R1200S is also admitted by virtue of being a "pushrod" design. HW is everything else (bigger Ducati liquid cooled twins like the 1098 and 1199, KTM RC8, RC51, TLR1000 etc). Of course you can enter a LW bike in HW as well, and many (like Bob) do that. The HW class is not very well populated currently and so LW is more competiive.

Round 4 blog post. This was fun to write: http://prairiedogracing282.blogspot.mx/2015/07/round-4-your-jedi-mind-tricks-dont-work.html

Awesome post lampstax, and a great result, congratulations! As a rider who was in a similar place to you not very long ago at all, I can relate exactly to everything you observed. I still am more comfortable turning left than right, although the difference is decreasing over time. I also find that relaxing on the bars to avoid unwanted steering inputs is something I have to concentrate on continuously. Judging by hotfoot's comments it seems that even very experienced riders can continue to struggle with this in certain situations. As I mentioned to you previously learning how to steer the bike hard can bring another major step forward - but it sounds like you have already bought into that idea and intend to work on it. I look forward to reading more about your future progress.

Ha ha. I really like the duck you suggestion. And no it is not too soon for finger jokes. They starts days after I lost it and it has been nearly a year. Great qualifying race today. Finished second but thinking I can challenge for the win tomorrow. Sitting by the camp fire having a whiskey and reading all your posts. It's so nice having cyber friends to share the experience with.

Round 4 is this weekend. I am going for Friday practice as well. Should be a full field - I think all of the fast guys are going to be there this round. I already have a enough points to be admitted to the provincial championship round, but rounds 4 and 5 are all that is left to determine the series championship. I really should be just riding conservatively to cruise to the championship at this point, but I doubt that is how it will work out...if I have a chance for the race win I am sure I will try to take it. I was several seconds per lap faster than everyone else in Round 3, and the track configuration this weekend favors my bike even more. Stay tuned....

Thanks Kevin - it takes me forever to write those posts so I really appreciate the positive feedback.

Round 3 blog post: http://prairiedogracing282.blogspot.ca/2015/07/round-3-universe-tells-me-not-to-race-i.html

Wow. Total, complete incompetence. Not meaning to derail the technical conversation here, but that video is the best argument for mandatory rider training I have ever seen. Also a pretty good demonstration of why ATGATT is a good idea.

I was in a similar place three years ago and came to this forum for help. Here is the thread, which documents my progress: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3438&hl=%2Btrust+%2Btires %

I was in a similar place three years ago and came to this forum for help. Here is the thread, which documents my progress: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3438&hl=%2Btrust+%2Btires Long story short, the biggest jump came for me once I forced myself to start turning the bike a lot harder (quick turn). That was easy to do and really got me to start understanding just exactly how much traction was available. Your issue might be totally different but I'll bet you can pick up some useful stuff from that thread. Other things that really helped me were getting more relaxed on the bars, especially mid-corner, and progressively ramping up my entry speeds on corners where I found I had lots of extra room at the exit. It is amazing how thrilling it can be chucking the bike into a particular corner even just a few mph faster than you ever have before. In reality it is nothing but it FEELS really different and takes some courage. Then you get to the exit and think "hmm...could have done that a lot faster still". I am not saying that you should try to terrify yourself (that can trigger SRs), but expect to at least excite yourself a little as you increase your speeds.

I'd need to sit and think a bit longer about this to give you the best answer, but a few things off the top of my head. 1. The CBR1000RR is often mentioned as one of those models that have long topout springs that mess with preload / sag adjustments. So no surprises there. 2. Yes, having a really small difference between free sag and rider sag is normally diagnostic of a spring rate that is too high. But remember that having topout springs engaged creates exactly that impression, since the effective rate is higher in the top part of the travel. 3. In the absence of "normal" behaviour, a good alternative way to set preload is to ride the bike as you normally would with a zip tie on the forks and check how much of the total travel you use. If you are not getting to within 30 mm of the bottom even under super hard sustained braking then the setup is likely too stiff. All that said, yes, 2 mm difference between free sag and rider sag is whacked. If that is indicative of the effective rate in use it is going to feel REALLY stiff. Are you 100% sure you are measuring right (accounting for stiction)?

Thanks for the suggestion. That's what I was thinking too. I was also considering getting a bike cover to keep it from collecting so much dew in the morning.

The method your friends describe is called trail braking. It has advantages and disadvantages. A disadvantage is that if you are still on the brakes, you have less traction left over for steering, so you can not turn the bike as hard - you have to steer more progressively. I think it is fair to say that trail braking takes more skill or at least caution, since if you steer it too hard while on the brakes you might lowside the bike. If you are already completely off the brakes well before turning in you can generally steer it as hard as you like without breaking the front tire loose. In my opinion most intermediate level track riders will go faster and be safer getting the braking done before turn-in. Street riders should generally avoid trail braking (again, in my opinion). In a racing situation, late braking can sometimes be the easiest way to carry out a pass into a corner after a straight, and so in that scenario trail baking is pretty much mandatory. That doesn't mean it necessarily produces the best lap times overall, but it can momentarily put you ahead of someone and once you have that position the other rider is going to have to do something beyond simply being faster than you to get it back. Another advantage is that, done properly, trail braking can lead to a more stable chassis as you enter the corner, since as cornering forces build you release the braking forces and the suspension (at least the front suspension) stays pretty much in a constant stroke position. I think you can see that I consider aggressive trail braking a fairly advanced technique. For most riders who are still rapidly improving on track, there is so much speed to be found just in things like quick steering, hitting apexes, proper throttle control, increasing corner speeds, etc., that trail braking should be well down the list of things to try to master.

Well, that certainly went well. Round 2 blog post: http://prairiedogracing282.blogspot.ca/2015/06/season-two-round-two-and-first-win.html Includes some Brody content for Kevin...

The other weird thing about topout springs is that they can mess with your sag measurements. Look again at the diagram from Ohlins that I linked above. If the topout spring were not there (i.e., you had "hard topout"), then the fork would have the same fully-extended length whether or not the main spring was installed. Once it is fully extended it is fully extended - it doesn't matter how stiff a spring your squish in there. But, with a topout spring, when you install the main spring (with preload - there is always installed preload in a fork), the topout spring compresses enough to balance the preload tension in the main spring. This allows the fork to extend beyond what previously seemed to be the fully extended position. This extra extension, equal to the distance the topout spring compressed, is marked as "growth" in the top left of the diagram. The upper part of the fork is higher in the right figure than it was in the left figure. Get it? Okay. So say now you are setting sag. Rider is aboard and the topout springs are disengaged, so only the main springs are supporting the weight. You measure 35 mm total sag. You crank in 5 mm additional preload. Sag will now be 30 mm from the *original* fully extended measurement. That's normal - add 5 mm preload, lose 5 mm sag. But if you re-do the fully extended measurement, you will find that it is greater than before. For example, if the topout spring rate is 2x the main spring rate, then in the fully extended position the fork will have "grown" by 2.5 mm when you added 5 mm preload (since the topout spring had to compress by 2.5 mm to build enough additional tension to counter the additional 5 mm preload on the main spring). So, your actual sag from the *new* fully extended position is going to be 32.5 mm, not 30 mm. It gets even stranger on certain modern suspensions where there are long, soft topout springs that are normally engaged even with the rider aboard. Now, even your static sag position will not change in 1:1 correspondence with the preload you add. Instead, the reduction in sag will be equal to the added preload x (1 - main spring rate / topout spring rate). I think. And that is pretty much all I know about springs and preload. Shall we go on to linkage rates? Or am I just talking to myself at this point?

Okay, here is one more thing about springing and preload – this is getting into more advanced stuff. It relates to topout springs and how the forks behave near full extension. In the simple model described by the figure on the previous page, at full extension we have 15 mm installed preload and 10 mm adjuster preload, for 25 mm total. With our 1.0 mm / kg springs in each fork leg, that means we have to apply 2 x 25 kg = 50 kg force before the suspension starts to move at all. Think about that…under hard acceleration with the forks extended fully, even if compression damping had no effect, the forks wouldn’t move at all unless the force applied to them exceeded 50 kg. So, if the wheel is skimming the surface, any bump that supplies anything less than a 50 kg force is going to be transmitted directly through the suspension to the chassis, as if there was no suspension at all! That is going to feel harsh. Put another way, below forces of 50 kg, the suspension behaves as if the spring rate were *infinite*. In practice it doesn’t work like this in modern suspension, because the phenomenon of “hard topout” has been eliminated by the incorporation of topout springs. These are (usually short, stiff) springs that are engaged as the forks approach full extension. Here is a diagram from Ohlins that shows the typical configuration, with the topout spring installed inside the cartridge. http://propilotsuspension.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/New-Bitmap-Image2.bmp So, when the forks are at full extension, the force exerted by the main spring is countered by the topout spring. Neglecting the weight of the wheel and lower suspension (just to keep things simple), at full extension the force from compression in the topout spring will equal the total preload force in the main spring – the forces are in balance and nothing moves. But because the spring forces are just exactly in balance, *any* additional force will cause movement. If you hit a bump, the main spring will compress a little more and the topout spring will extend the same amount - and you will get some suspension movement rather than complete rigidity. But here’s the weird thing…when both springs are engaged in this configuration, their rates *add*. Not obvious why that should be, is it? I can explain that later if anyone likes, but maybe for now just take my word for it. This means that in the range where the topout springs are engaged, the suspension will still move in response to an external force like a bump, but it will have a much higher effective spring rate and so the stiffness will be higher than normal – but at least the effective spring rate is not infinite! This diagram from Andrew Trevitt shows how the effective spring rate changes with suspension position, with and without topout springs. http://www.sportrider.com/sites/sportrider.com/files/styles/medium_1x_/public/import/page_element_images/146_1010_02_o%2Bchart%2B.jpg?itok=78f215lu How the suspension behaves near full extension depends significantly on the length and rate of the topout springs. With short, stiff springs (most common in the past) the suspension will be very rigid near full extension, but once it compresses even a little the topout springs are disengaged and the rate is determined just by the main spring. By contrast, incorporating long topout springs allows the engineers to use topout springs with a lower spring rate, so the suspension will not be so terribly stiff near full extension – it might be just, say, 3x as stiff as normal. But, the range over which that rate applies is much larger because the springs are so long. So, you could be under mild acceleration with the forks just barely extended past the static sag point, and the topout springs are already engaged, making the suspension feel very rigid.