rchase
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Posts posted by rchase
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Wow. You learn something new every day!
I did not realize there was an audio CD of the books! I know what I'm going to be ordering soon. Those long drives out to the track are going to be a lot more productive now.
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Let's just put it this way. I started Level 1 with CSS with no experience whatsoever on a track. Going through all 4 levels of the school I'm pretty comfortable with most of what you mentioned in your questions.
Level's 1 and 2 deal with line, throttle control and visuals and lots of other stuff I'm forgetting. Level 3 is mostly body position and Level 4 is a free form program where you work on specific to you problems. The school's format is a classroom portion and then an on track session where you ride what you just learned. During the track portion you have an on track coach who interacts with you at times and monitors your progress with the drill. Coming back into the pit there's a briefing where you get feedback and can ask questions with the on track coach. (lots of AH HA! moments there) Level 4 expands this coaching a bit and you have a Level 4 adviser and an on track coach between the two coaches to bounce questions off of it's absolutely amazing the progress you make.
From what you described and from my experience with going through all the Levels I would say the school would help you out a LOT. It took me from being a somewhat nervous street rider and gave me a HUGE amount of confidence and ability. It literally transformed my riding.
One other thing to take a look at if you are considering the school. Grab a copy of Twist of the Wrist II on DVD. I would also recommend the book as well. The books and DVD's cover a lot of the theory that's taught in the school. It really enhanced my experience having read some of the books before I attended.
Here's a link to the School's store site.
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BTW. Here's a video that might be helpful. Nate Kern has described the S1000RR as "one of the safest performance bike on the market". He talks about a lot of the systems on the S1000RR in this video.
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The S1000RR is a big pussycat and is not intimidating at all. The first time I went to the school that was one of my concerns. After the first session I had forgotten all about the 193hp monster that I was renting from the school and focused on all the other stuff.
The power modes and TC make the S1000RR very predictable and easy to handle on the track. In fact I loved the school's S1000RR's so much that it was the obvious choice when I needed to buy a new bike. It's even more well behaved on the street where I thought it might be a bit out of it's element.
My experience was much the same as others here. They start you out in rain mode to get you used to the bike and then the coaches and Trevor work together to get you into the mode that works best for you. Even in Race mode the bike maintains it's composure and predictability.
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Drop your inside elbow more.
I agree. Utilizing the "screwdriver handle" hold on the grip helps with this.
In regards to the helmet. If it's restricting your visibility or causing strain on your neck trying to get that visibility the fit can probably be improved upon. Here's a helpful video that Dylan did. It's helpful to "see" his demonstration.
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My one problem with dropping my head down though is that I seem to really be straining my eyes and my neck to keep myself looking ahead.
So. Tell us about your helmet. Most specifically how it fits. If you are getting neck strain you are likely having fit problems with your helmet due to the positioning of the eye port during turns.
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Now a couple questions for Robert ( or anyone for that matter
), which might get us a little off topic, How do you break through a mental barrier ? If you never approach your personal "limit" how can you move it ? And if you never encounter your SR's how can you hope to tame them ? If you were able to quickly gauge your lean angle mid corner, would that free up some of your attention span ? If something is consuming a unnecessary portion of your attention while you're riding should you address it, regardless of what IT is ?
Some REALLY good questions that have been root of evil with many of my own riding problems.
I think I read in one of Keith's books a section related to gradually increasing corner entry speeds. You can do it a little each time without triggering SR's and stretch your comfort zone. This past Level 4 I discovered my corner entry speed issues were mostly related to visuals and obsessing over the turn points. The turn point itself grabbed so much of my attention that the rest of the important stuff got lost in the shuffle ultimately killing my mid corner speed. By not obsessing about the turn point and by gradually increasing the speed I was able to make a remarkable improvement remaining well within my comfort zone.
In regards to the "common lament" thing. That's also an attention thing as well if you think about it. If you focus on the goal of getting a knee down you can overlook some of the other important issues causing the actual problem. In my case my problem was my obsession over the turn point that caused my corner entry speed to be so low I did not need to use as much lean angle to get through the corner. I could have forced myself to use more lean angle than needed but that would not have ultimately solved my visual problem and probably caused other problems. The knee down is a byproduct of getting it right. It's really a question of focusing on the product than the byproduct. The product is getting through the corner as fast as possible.
It depends on your point of view and goals if that advice is "wrong or right". I do however agree with your idea of "digging into the problem. I'm really glad it happened in this thread as I have learned a lot of stuff from many people sharing their experiences.
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Let me just remind both Robert and Tyler that physical differences in the body (leg length, flexibility in the hips, etc.) and bike configuration (rearset position, tank shape, etc.) can have a considerable influence on how easy or difficult it can be to get the knee down, even with steep lean angles and good body position. For example, I have three bikes. On one I can get my knee down consistently and on another occasionally, but on the third one, I am not anywhere near touching my knee. The third bike is taller, has an odd tank shape and REALLY high rearsets.
I know both of you guys, and you are built totally differently, so much so that you will both need to take each other's comments with a grain of salt, because I am confident that your respective experiences - even on the same bike - would be quite different. Robert, I think you would have to go considerably faster around a corner (and/or carry a higher lean angle) to get your knee down, compared to Tyler, who has long legs and a lot of flexibility in his riding position. Also I'd hazard a guess that Tyler can more comfortably ride in rearsets that are lower than what would suit Robert.
Another item to consider; Robert, the recommendation to ride at 75% of your ability is for learning, to give you enough free attention to observe your riding or learn a new skill, instead of riding at your absolute limit. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to ride at 75-80% of your ability all the time - it's not a bad idea, because you have some margin for error, but if you are going all out in a race you may not leave that much safety margin. I wonder if Tyler is talking 100% full out pace when you are talking 80%? That distinction would make a difference for me, I am not dragging knee at my 75-80% pace, I have to be going as fast as I can go (OR use bad technique) to get my knee down.
Hotfoot. Your knowledge and ability to share it never ceases to amaze me! The bike does make a huge difference in the equation and is something that we never really even touched on. Something that should have been fresh in mind with all the troubles I had with one of my bikes. Beyond the bike body size, shape and flexibility plays a huge factor as well.
I also never took into account racing which is a whole different ballgame. I go to the track to stretch the legs on my bikes and have a good time and rarely if ever go beyond my 75-80% unless presented with a situation where I really need to. That alone probably explains the rarity of my knee scrapes. Goal and purpose has a huge bearing on what an individual considers to be important. Someone who races is going to have a different perspective on what's important than someone who's casually doing track days for fun.
Personally as long as I'm making improvements I'm happy. Knee on the asphalt or not.
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In regards to the photo. I agree with what everyone else is saying here about being able to refine body position a bit.
The thing that stuck out to me a bit was the position of the head and shoulders and the position of the inside arm.
How are your feet positioned on the pegs? One of the huge problems that I had for a while is foot position. Since I was scraping them on the track I used a very unusual foot position up against the frame of the bike to combat this for a while. It solved the problem in the short term but caused other issues. With decent rearsets and revisiting my foot position getting into a hang off position was a lot more natural for me. Being able to pivot on the ball of my foot allowed me to get more knee out while maintaining ground clearance.
It's not all bad news. I do notice your rear end is off to the correct side of the center line. Your back is relatively straight until it gets to the shoulders. Should just be a little refinement to get you where you want to be.
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Oh Ok. I just thought we were getting off on a tangent. I did not want to take away from the original question. In the interest of transparency this is what I sent via PM to T-Mckeen.
"Hey,
Thanks for the healthy debate in the Knee down topic. I don't think we were helping the guy with his question so I decided to PM instead.I'm sure your familiar with the 80% rule from the school? The thing to keep in mind is that your 80% is different than my 80% or even Valentino Rossi's 80%. You mentioned the following in the topic.
"but you're not using up all your available lean angle, you CAN go faster, you're being held back by mental block, not mechanical
limitations."
Even Valentino has that problem. As human beings we just can't keep up with the machinery no matter what. Riding above your limits opens the door for all sorts of SR's that can ruin your riding.
Relatively inexperienced riders like myself are trained by the school to throw away a little bit of that entry speed to have a SR free entry and a better exit. That's where our bang for the buck is. Eventually we do increase our entry speed but that's a gradual process. You can always go faster but when you trip an SR going in too hot it's very destructive to your riding." -
Looks good rchase.. -- Greg from STT forum. I finally made it on the forum. Going to CSSS Sept 15 at Willow.. Studying up now..
AH HA! I'm glad they finally got you sorted.
For those scratching their heads Greg is a really nice guy that I bumped into through my track day group's forums. I had commented on the forums here and the positivity found here. He's an S1000RR rider and is going to be doing a CSS very soon. Judging by the video he sent me after he gets through the program he's going to be SCARY fast as he know's his way around the BMW's power band.
Welcome to the forum Greg! If you haven't already put up a post introducing yourself.
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there is no one answer its entirely situational
That's one thing we can agree on. There is no one answer. Here's some
observations that I have come to just from this conversation.
1. Knee contact can be due to rider error.
2. A knee down is not an indicator of maximum lean angle as the pro's continue to lean even after they touch.
3. Certain corners are impossible for even the pro's to get a knee down in.
I'm going to pick up this conversation with Tyler offline as I don't want to derail the topic any further. Someone asked specific questions and our healthy debate is not adding to that at this point.
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Tyler,
You are a good sport. On many of the more technical tracks there's always a lot more to the corners than meets the eye. I threw in my question about camber to demonstrate sometimes it's more complicated than your scenario accounted for. At my favorite track Barber Motorsports most of the corners have interesting surprises engineered into them to keep you on your toes.
To answer your question in most off camber turns the angle of the surface brings your knee closer and reduces the lean angle needed to make contact. You are rarely at maximum lean angle when you make contact in an off camber turn. The problem of course though is the negative camber reduces your traction and makes it much easier for the bike to get out of shape on you ruining your opportunity for a fast drive out of the corner if you overcook your entry. Even in a completely flat turn when your knee is fully extended you are still not at your maximum lean angle. If you watch closely many professional riders will continue to add lean angle after they make contact.
So here's some interesting questions.
Which of these give you the fastest lap times? A fast entry and mid corner speed? A slower entry and better drive out? A combination of both? Which should a less experienced rider focus their attention on first for the biggest bang for the buck?
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Rchase,
Imagine a hypothetical corner, where you're doing everything right, good reference points, body position, throttle control the whole thing is just flawless, and despite having your knee stuck all the way out you have no contact with the pavement. What does that tell you about your entry speed ??
Tyler
In theory it tells you your entry speed could have been faster. But what if the turn was off camber? Could you or should you use maximum lean angle?
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There are lots of elements of geometry and technique that determine when and if your knee will touch down. For me it happened in more or less the normal way - I got faster and introduced more lean while maintaining the same body position and eventually started wearing down pucks. But if I had shorter legs, less hip flexibility, bum more on the seat, higher rearsets, more ride height etc etc it would have happened later if at all. Lots of people go fast without dragging their knees, and lots of people go not-so-fast with their knees on the deck nearly every turn.
That said, if you don't change anything else about your body position or lines but start dragging your knees, then yes, you are probably getting more corner speed. So, it *can* be a mark of progress. For me, when I am just learning a new track I am not knee down much, but as I figure out the corners I get my knee down in more and more places. For me that is useful information. So, personally I am not neutral on this - knee down = good.
Interestingly enough I agree with you on this. As much as I don't really care about my knee making contact it does provide information. The key of course is maintaining good technique and not "trying" to get the knee down. While it does provide information to the rider that information could be misleading in certain situations. A mistake can easily reduce ground clearance and cause contact without an increase in corner speed. Something to keep in mind.
I'm actually going to make a point to check my corner speed and lean angle data off of my datalogger when I make contact to make sure that indeed the scrape was not due to a mistake on my part.
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Replace those tires ASAP! As others have mentioned go with the Q3's. Great tires.
I took one of my bikes to a track day with tires that were about 3 years old. They looked brand new and easily flew through tech inspection. When I got out on the track I quickly realized the logic behind using fresh tires. In the corners the bike was sliding around and was a handful. It was so bad that after one session I had the tires replaced at the track.
When I bought my newest bike I had the dealer install Q3's before I took delivery. I had to do 600 miles before my first service to get the rev limiter turned off. The tires were fine. In fact with about 1600 miles on my Q3's I'm going to be doing a track day on them. The tires will be fine with 100 miles on them. I would replace them before you head to the school for the convenience factor and so you can get some street miles on them and get used to them.
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I'm in the same situation myself. This past Level 4 was the first time I ever had knee contact with the track. It does not bother me one bit that I'm not scraping my knee on the track through every corner.
Think of it this way. Using the correct technique decreases the lean angle required and increases the speed you can use through the corner.
I think that a lot of riders look at knee pucks as a measure of ability which is misleading at best. Many of them use an exaggerated technique that ultimately slows them down in the corners just to get their knee down. Don't worry about it. Use the technique that works for you the best.
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Wow! Thank you Slasher! As with Hotfoot's reply it's going to take me a bit to absorb all of that.
I have said this before but I'll say it again. I have never seen a more helpful bunch of people than here on the CSS forums!!
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Just wanted to mention. Trevor is pretty awesome at his job. Out of all the track events I have attended CSS has the safest environment I have ever ridden in. That's kind of amazing too considering the mix of abilities of people on the track together. Out of the 6 days I have attended with CSS at Barber I have never had a single session red flagged due to an accident. Accidents have happened but they have been cleared off very quickly and efficiently. During those 6 days only one session has ever been cut short and that was due to a sudden storm. We got all of that time back too "somehow" with some creative schedule bending.
Other track experiences I have had have you can count on at least one red flagged session if not more on a single day. I have seen tracks completely shut down due to being out of Ambulances. A harsh contrast to the safety and efficiency at CSS.
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If you sit UP and back in the saddle, you are putting most of your weight behind the COG, AND putting some of it ion a long lever (the height away from the COG) and it will make the bike more likely to wheelie. However, if you slide your butt back but get into a tuck with your body down low to the tank, you aren't shifting enough weight back to make a big difference, since most of your upper body is still in front of the COG and the weight is low on the bike.One question though. With the riders weight farthest back in the seat would the bike not have a higher probability of lifting the front wheel? When it comes to mental issues that's a big one for me when I realize that 90% of my braking ability just went away and even after the wheel lands it will take a moment for it to settle before I have 100% braking capabilities again.
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The BMW can power wheelie no matter where you sit, if you throttle on hard enough, but keep in mind that if you do wheelie, the front will come down immediately when you let off the gas. Immediately. There is not a long lag waiting for the front wheel to land. Out of curiosity, have you had the bike wheelie on you? If so, where were you, how high did the wheel lift, etc.?
I asking because, generally speaking, with good throttle control power wheelies are usually low and very smooth, often the rider is unaware the front wheel is off the ground until they feel it come down.
That makes sense. With the body weight over the tank in a full tuck there's less weight over the back of the bike.
I have felt the front of the bike get extremely light but I have yet to have it wheelie that I'm aware of. It's more of an irrational fear based on a lack of experience more than anything. Moving from a bike that you can easily pin all the time and still not catch up to a powerful monster like the BMW presents a lot of unknowns. Thanks for defining some of those. I might have to explore Race mode sometime on the track now that I realize the front end leaving the ground suddenly is not such a big deal.
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I hope we don't get rained on -- 999s are notoriously finicky in the rain electronically!
And here I thought I was the only Italian bike owner that hated getting his baby wet.
I'm even afraid to wash my MV and use silicone cleaner and microfiber towels to keep her clean unless she gets REALLY dirty.
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Not going to be able to make it this year. Just bought the bike on Fathers day weekend and have spent any extra $$ I had on crash protection. Mabe in Ma of 2015.....
Sorry to hear that. But when there's a will there's a way they always say. Trust me the school is worth waiting for.
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Consider the pitbull trailer restraint system. . 10x easier than anything else out there. . . The baxley chocks are ok, but you still need to strap down. The pitbull just roll in, lock the latches and pin them in. . maybe 30 seconds. .
Yeah. I have looked at those. There's a few things keeping me from pulling the trigger on the Pitbull system. My bikes are a combination of different styles and sizes from little 400cc framed bikes to big 1000cc bikes so that's a bit of an unknown. I also have an MV Agusta F4 with a single sided swing arm and a very sensitive and expensive rear hub assembly that I would be nervous supporting the whole bike's weight from. I also use the trailer when it's not in use to provide a bit more security to the two bikes I keep inside. One of the advantages of the Baxley's is being able to "roll right in and park" without getting off the bike or adding anything to it. One of the cool and unintended side effects of the woodcraft axle spool / slider system I had installed on the BMW is it makes the PERFECT tie down point. The BMW can be tied down in less than a minute.
I still have yet to pull the trigger on the A/C unit. This topic has been quite interesting and informative and I'm considering all the options. One of two things will happen. I'll either come across the perfect solution for me and make it happen or I'll schedule some awesome track day in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the summer and I will kludge something together the best I can last minute. I hope it's the first one.
Thanks for the suggestion though. You did spark an idea there. My trailer is small but I could likely get a 3rd bike in there if I kept it towards the back. A pit bull restraint in the center towards the back might be the the perfect solution for a third bike as it's completely flat and out of the way when it's not in use.
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Robert, are you feeling forces (like wind or acceleration) that are pulling on you, or is this a mental thing, worrying about the speed itself?
At 120 mph the wind forces are significant. Are you well tucked into the 'bubble' created by the fairings and windscreen? If you are sitting up and trying to see over the top of the windscreen, the wind will pull on you hard and you will have no choice but to hold onto the handlebars tight, no one could keep a light touch on the bars while being dragged backwards by a 120mph wind.
Are your knees tucked in? If you are going around a corner at 100+ mph, sticking your knee out will create a lot of drag and want to twist your body around. Usually it is better to tuck both knees in tight for very high speed sweepers.
Do you scoot all the way back to the stop on the seat in fast straights? You may need to, to get a full tuck. If a full tuck doesn't put you back that far, you may need to add a pad BEHIND you, to give you a backstop. At full acceleration the BMW pulls really hard and you need a support at your butt to keep you from sliding back, otherwise you can end up exhausting yourself trying to hold on.
Are your leathers fitted well? If your leathers catch air and balloon out at the shoulders or back, they can act like a sail and put excess forces on your body at high speed.
If it is strictly a mental thing, if you are just concerned about the speed itself, here are some ideas :
1) tape over your speedo so you can't glance down and see triple digits.
2) get really good earplugs to minimise the roar of the wind, often the most intimidating factor
3) make sure your helmet doesn't do anything goofy at high speeds, like smush into your face.
4) try death gripping the bars ON PURPOSE for a few laps, then on the next lap relax your hands and observe the difference
If you think it is just a mental issue, pay attention to your body and your bike for a few laps and see if you discover that there is something physical going on that is triggering your worries - is the bike shaking or doing something weird? Are you getting pulled back on the bike physically? Are your eyes keeping up with the speed or does everything suddenly feel rushed? Does the sound of the engine or the wind become intimidating? Etc.
Hotfoot. REALLY helpful stuff here. It's going to take a bit to absorb all of that. Thank you for all of that great advice!
I think it's a combination of factors. I'm running a factory screen on the BMW and I'm not a tiny person I can probably work on my tuck more but as well a better wind screen would help too. I feel the sensation of the wind trying to tear me off the bike and my body reacts on it's own. I used to be afraid of higher speeds until I realized that straight up and down rocketing down the track at 100+ is probably the most stable the bike can possibly be. So there could be a mental element to it as well.
Part of it's the speed itself but also the brutal acceleration the BMW has that I have yet to get used to. I think revisiting my seating position would help too to support my lower body and that alone would also help in giving me more room to fold my body behind the screen more. Having some support from the back would counteract the BMW trying to rip my arms out of their sockets.
One question though. With the riders weight farthest back in the seat would the bike not have a higher probability of lifting the front wheel? When it comes to mental issues that's a big one for me when I realize that 90% of my braking ability just went away and even after the wheel lands it will take a moment for it to settle before I have 100% braking capabilities again.
I have a list of stuff to work on. Thanks again!
), which might get us a little off topic,
Time For School, Badger!
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
No problem at all. I think you are going to have a great time and make lots of improvements.