yakaru
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Posts posted by yakaru
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Looks like good news:
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1 hour ago, 53Driver said:
I just watched all the train tracks he was juggling at any given time. Hell of a logistician's mind in him.
I'm planning a budget to come out west next year. 2 Day Camp. In the mean time, I'll work on what I learned and then be ready for more Level IV training.
Hopefully get to meet you then.Cheers,
SteveIf you're heading out west here's my track comments:
The Ridge: one of my favorites -- both fast and technical, which is a fascinating mix of skill needs. Big straights and semi straights along with a variety of corner types and elevation changes (including the turn 13-16 "Ridge Complex" super corkscrew)
Streets @ Willow: suuuuuuuuuuuuper technical and short. You'll get lots of laps in and learn skills, but it is in rough shape pavement wise and you won't really get to 'wring out' a superbike much. CSS's "home" track.
Laguna: Fun and historic, the corkscrew is neat but I'll admit as someone who has done the Ridge complex for years before going to Laguna got used to it pretty fast
Thunderhill: Really interesting track -- one of the most challenging tracks to pass on, which made it an area I was able to work on my passing a lot.
Vegas: flat as a pancake but 'in town' so you don't have far to go like you usually do for a track. Very frequently offered on weekends making it a great 'get away' school.
If you want to try somewhere else out east VIR is the one I'd pick.
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Trevor really is the best of the best. I've actually said MANY times CSS should offer a "track control" school for orgs to learn from them how to manage a closed course. Glad you had a great time, @53Driver hope you'll be out again next year?
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A lot of this has to do with the specifics of the corner but for the general approach:
- You usually want to shift the weight balance forward to change direction. Depending on the bike and corner this can vary from a pause in the roll on, a partial roll off, a complete roll off (preferably with intent, not just chopping the throttle), or application of the brakes.
- Once on line you roll back on, moving the weight back, stabilizing the bike. Again depending on the corner and bike the nature of this can vary.
There's a corner at one of my local tracks which, on a 250cc bike, I don't even roll off -- the lean needed is not high and the power of the bike is such that I can keep it pinned very safely within the bike and tire's limits. On the S1000RR then it depends on how I came to that section -- on a 'good lap' I need to roll off (though not brake), if my approach is slowed for whatever reason then instead I pause or perform a very mild roll off (very comparable to the "Double apex" throttle control described in TWOTW).
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Sorry to hear about the down.
I think Apollo has the core of it, and if your lecturer didn't say to obviously use the brakes if you needed then that does seem to be an oversight. I'll put a clip in at the end from the Superbike UK's level 1 presentation -- should jump to 18:16 -- which is the clearest explanation of 'how' and 'why' to do the drill (including using the brakes if you must).
In my experience, the no-brake drill is best approached in a stepwise manner and helps tune entry speed and understanding of slowing from things other than the brakes (tire drag, lean angle, engine braking)... I can say I definitely cover the brakes but don't need to trail brake in for this drill (and a mild brake application mid turn can be done safely -- just be smooth and be open to needing to stand the bike up a bit, and definitely don't be adding brake while you're still trying to bend the bike over further).
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1 hour ago, Hotfoot said:
That makes sense all around. Glad you had fun. As you say, Streets really can be a blast on a lightweight bike!
I'm pretty happy. Got to grow my trophy case a bit.
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7 hours ago, Hotfoot said:
That reminds me, you were debating before the last CodeRace which bike you wanted to take and what you wanted to race. What did you end up doing and what was your final take on one versus the other?
I enjoyed the 300 a lot more on the school day, was really fun, but decided with likely quite a few new racers that the potential risk of needing to do more 'in corner' passing instead of exit out-driving would be a risk so I went with the S1000. Wish everyone had been on lightweights though
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On 5/15/2020 at 2:56 PM, Cobie Fair said:
Good to hear this, maybe I'll get a leg over a modern 300, give it a go!
Push comes to shove I'll have mine with me at the Ridge and for the the October school set around Code RACE if you want to give it a spin (Streets was super fun when I took my 300 on it this March)
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1 hour ago, Cobie Fair said:
Yakaru,
How do you like that 300 for the street? I normally want a little more torque, but that's mostly cause I'm lazy and don't want to shift that much.
Yeah, it definitely makes you use the gear box more -- though I notice that more on the track than on the street where being a bit out of the power band is okay as well as generally being able to maintain speed when you're just going down major roads. I'm pretty happy with it -- I've only taken bigger bikes out on the street in special circumstances (e.g. rentals on vacation, borrowing a friend's bike for some reason) but I usually find that I don't have much use for the extra power other than just being lazier with shifts but maybe that would change if I rode one more consistently on the street. It actually took me a number of school days over a couple years at the Ridge (2014-2015 I think) until I would hit the throttle stop on the front straight on the S1000 because I'd gotten used to it just being a thing that took a long time on the 300.
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Ugh, I'm so sad I'm missing this but budget is taken up among other things this year
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3 hours ago, Spinto said:
i get the same race feel from the Ntechs.....if you can't trust your tires....or feel them....you won't go as fast. Sport touring tires....pilot road 5s.....what are is your race bike? street ride?
I have a Ninja 300 for the street (running Perelli sport demons), track & race wise I have another Ninja 300, S1000RR, and an HP4R, mostly on Dunlops.
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On 5/4/2020 at 10:32 AM, Spinto said:
racing regionally i used Dunlop Ntechs...exclusively....hard carcas.....better feel for me. Racing our National series, we were forced to use Pirelli. Soft Carcas....worked well until they let go and you're thrown off the track.
Something I've heard before is that with the Pirelli's you're "being held up by the hand of god... until you aren't." I love my sport-touring Pirellis though, I'll say that, but very different use case.
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I'd really love Cobie's input on the standing up with throttle at this point.
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I'll expand on this some -- weighting the pegs by moving the body is vaguely effective. You see this in Dylan's video on youtube about the No BS bike. You're moving the bike's center of gravity very slightly and so it'll 'self counter steer' just slightly to compensate. Weighting the pegs without doing this is basically pointless. Think about using your calf to go 'tippy toe' while standing on the ground -- you're not pushing on the earth any more than before (equal and opposite reaction). In a similar way, look at astronauts in zero G if you can, it's an amazing example of these physics properties -- they can move their arms and legs internally, but they can't turn around without something to put the counter force on or a form of propulsion.
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12 minutes ago, Spinto said:
so you've been racing....not just track days?
Correct. My last race, before the lock down, was actually with CSS.
Edit to expand: I'll admit I'm a newer racer, but I'm a physics simulation programmer and I gave the equation and explanation for why. Honestly that should have way more credit than any race experience. I also, as I said, invite you to try it. The lean bike at CSS is an excellent example, as is the parking lot. Racing experience is fine and good but CSS mentions many times how many pro-racers they have who don't know they counter steer or other basics.
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Racer, I've been riding for 10 years and have been a track rider the whole time.
Also a bit, uh, unkosher? to do this perhaps but this is well documented. Here's YCRS covering it. Nick's bio:
https://ridelikeachampion.com/teams/nick-ienatsch/ (He has a pair of AMA #1 plates on the wall and deep ties from 35 years in the motorcycle industry.) I've read his book and will say he has incorrect information in it (peg weighting) but on this he's dead on.
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As an addendum -- With cars you can balance by distributing the weight differential between the tires, but that's why when you do a high speed turn you get burning rubber and sliding.
Same equation but the balance of where the load goes differs.
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2 hours ago, Spinto said:
why does it run wide? the turning circle has gotten bigger?...how??
First off, think about hairpins -- why do you slow for them if this isn't true?
Second off, while this isn't a 'straight' comparison, I believe (part of the equation involves the forward tracking of the bike which means it would be the same at any speed) you are going to have a few reasons:
1. You are going to hit your lean angle sooner in the corner, as the counter steering force will get you there while covering less distance
2. The way counter steering works is you are balancing the centripetal to the centrifugal force
excellent video here:
The centripetal ('center-seeking') acceleration is the motion inwards towards the center of a circle. The acceleration is equal to the square of the velocity times mass divided by the radius of the circular path. (the mass is why light bikes steer more easily!)
F = mv²/r is the equation. Since you must balance the centripetal with the centrifugal that means you must hold the force constant. If v goes up you must also increase r.
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32 minutes ago, Cobie Fair said:
Back to the point of the bike running wide when it slows: if the rider is rolling on the throttle, then rolls off, it will run wide initially.
Good discussion here.
Yes, sorry, I meant to say that and it got missed as I typed it.
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1 minute ago, Spinto said:
Since you're doing the course at Barber shortly....i'll leave it them to teach you in their words and style that knowingly works.
Just one point....Slowing the bike while in ca corner will cause it to fall NOT stand up.....more throttle in a corner will cause the bike to want to stand up!...therefore more steering input required.
These guys and gals at CSS know what they're doing....don't assuming anything.....go in with an open and blank mind.
My PB laptime at Barber on my r6....1:32
Heh, opposite myth -- speeding up won't make the bike want to stand up. It will widen the turn but go out in a parking lot and just spin circles and roll on, careful not to steer. Your circles will widen but the bike won't stand -- slow back down and your radius will reestablish itself.
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I will at least voice a few, though Cobie is of course welcome to tell me if I'm full of it. I'll also ask forgiveness for not following the 'helping think through it' instruction style of the school, given that I believe you've never attended and thus might not have the previous instruction that helps with that method.
"1. Increase the lean angle through more aggressive counter-steering - if traction is available for that (as mentioned above by Spinto)"
I have concerns about how you explained this -- once you're at lean you stop counter steering, the bike maintains the line. If you need to tighten it then you can counter steer more, though there's concerns here (e.g. rolling on and adding lean is a quick way to crash). The term "aggressive" is a flag for me -- while there are advantages to a decisive countersteer input you don't want to be 'stabby' about it and if you're already at lean I might back down my rate in order to 'listen' to the bike better.
"2. RPMs (maintain or increase because slowing makes the bike stand up)"
I'm really curious why you feel this is the case. While a sudden chop of the throttle will send you even wider, a slow roll off won't (see the double apex mention in the Twist film, if you have access). In fact, it is usually the opposite -- why do you slow way more for a hairpin? To quote another school "Speed equals radius" (at a given lean angle, bp, etc.)
"5. Peg pressure (in conjunction with weight shift to amplify/stabilize a pivot steering point)"
your mention of pivot here is throwing me, as usually I think of pivot steering as having my weight 'cross body' (balance my left hand to my right peg) for "strength with stability" in fast steering situations (especially to overcome momentum effects at higher bike speeds) whereas most people who talk about peg weighting discuss it in regards to weighting the inside peg. The fact of the matter is that "weighting" the inside peg really doesn't do anything. The majority of what you notice if you've ever tried it is usually more the shift of body weight which is far more effectively done by moving the upper body to the inside of the bike. Since you're on the bike you're fighting physics -- for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. The forces you're putting into the peg just act back upon you and you're effectively in a closed system due to the tires not really taking the load (since overall it's the same) and inputting them into the road (since Earth IS a separate system). Check this out:
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I see VIR is closed through the end of this month and seems likely to be closed in May -- I was wondering if Superbike School has made a call on if they're going, not, or waiting to hear. I cancelled my school days there already due to unrelated issues but hadn't heard anything from the school in general and was curious.
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On 4/20/2020 at 6:19 PM, Cobie Fair said:
Jeremy, glad you are posting! I was just curious if had been to a school, we could refer to some of the material if you had.
Back to your question: if the counter steering is done, what will make the bike lean over more? If you want to tighten the corner, what makes the line tighter, with the bike leaning over more?
I believe from what he said he was saying the opposite -- by pushing right/pulling left after countersteering into a left turn that would upright the bike not tighten.
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Are you referring to pulling left / pushing right to upright the bike? Go past upright for something like a chicane?
There's also a technique where, especially at higher speeds where the force needed to overcome momentum and get the bike turned quickly that you 'push/pull' with both hands to 'balance the load' on your arms and have more available 'soft force' (vs "stabbing" which can be destabilizing)
Twist II on Prime Video!
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
I've got to say that the most valuable parts have changed drastically for me over the years; but my favorite parts are probably the technical demonstrations.