Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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I went to several schools when I first discovered track riding. I did not find any of the other schools to be anywhere near as organized and professional as CSS. At the other schools I was nervous, was never quite sure what I was supposed to be doing, and I didn't have an instructor assigned specifically to me so I didn't get any help on track unless I asked for it, and no one noticed anything about my riding unless I made an error.
Another big difference was that some of the schools spent a lot of time telling me what NOT to do, and not much time telling me what I SHOULD do or how to do it - at least not in any clear and useful way. For example, I heard a lot of "look through the corner" and "trust your tires" but those instructions were far too vague to be of any real use to me. One school in particular spent nearly an hour talking about all the things that "could get you killed on a motorcycle" and by the time I went on track I was scared half to death.
Did I improve at each school? Yes, I did, I learned some things and I improved a little at each one. (Well, except for the one that kept telling me all the ways I could die, that one was a step backwards for me because it scared me.) But when I came to CSS I improved in much more dramatic ways, the gains stayed with me, and I most importantly I understood what I had changed, how I changed it, and why it was better. I was so impressed that I started asking questions about how the school works and that eventually led to me wanting to be a coach for the school.
Sometimes organizations look impressive from the outside but not so much from the inside. Now that I am a coach at CSS, I see the inner workings of the school, and I am astounded at the level of organization, the incredible focus on continuing improvement, and the genuine desire from everyone to see students make big improvements and have a great time at the school.
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If you know that (1) leaning the bike over compromises traction (because the suspension has to work harder at higher lean angles), and (2) getting on the gas increases the load on the rear tire... does it seem like a good idea to do both simultaneously?
The big problem with adding lean angle AND throttle at the same time, is that you can overload the rear tire so rapidly that you don't get much (if any) warning that it is about to slide. However, if the lean angle is constant or the bike is coming UP as you are getting on the gas, you have more opportunity to feel the back tire if it is starting to get loose. (There is also a drill in Level 2 that can help with preventing/recovering a rear wheel slide.)
So, on to your real question:
1) Ideally, you would turn the bike into the corner and then apply good throttle control throughout the corner. (Do you remember throttle control #1?) If you only turn the bike once (which would be the correct approach!) your lean angle would not change and thus you are never adding throttle AND lean simultaneously.
2) Whether you roll off entirely, dip the throttle, or hold it flat at the turn points in a series of transitions will depend on the type of corners and on the characteristics of your bike. If the corners are each progressively faster (like 4, 5, 6 at Streets) it may not be necessary to roll off the throttle completely to get the bike turned adequately, especially if you ride a lightweight, low horsepower bike like a Ninja 250. However it is generally easier to get a good effective quickturn if you roll off entirely or at LEAST dip the throttle, since the weight shift to the front compresses the front suspension and steepens the steering angle. What you would NOT want to do is INCREASE throttle (roll ON) WHILE you are steering it (leaning it over) because that WOULD be adding throttle and lean angle simultaneously, and could make the rear tire slide or make the bike wheelie as it comes up from one side and over to the other (wheelies are not so great when you are trying to steer!
)If each corner was SLOWER (tighter) then the one before, you would of course have to roll off or possibly brake to set the proper entry speed to make the corners.
Does that make sense?
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Welcome! I am very happy to see another female rider joining us on the board.
I am a rider (horses), too - rode jumpers for years but now with a young son at home I can't seem to find time to show; now it's mostly trail riding for me.
I saw your other post about the Ninja 250 - I had one, I'm short too and found it to be a terrific bike, forgiving but still really fun to ride.
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This is slightly off-topic from your question, but it reminds me of a story... on my FIRST race day I was chatting with a guy that was in my race. I said something about I how like to ride within my limits, I don't want to be scared when I ride. He seemed totally taken aback. He said, "If you aren't scared, what's the point?" His viewpoint was so totally different from mine, I was shocked. I couldn't imagine enjoying riding if I was scared all the time.... and he couldn't imaging enjoying it if he WASN'T.
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At the ripe old age of 45, I plan to start racing next season. It will be fairly low key - endurance events on a 600 with a team consisting of myself, my brother and a friend, and also running my air-cooled Ducati in the lightweight Battle of the Twins class (mostly racing against SV650s). I may enter another class as well (old boys or lost-era) later in the season if I feel like I need more.
Honestly, I am not 100% sure I will like it. I am certain that it will improve my riding, but on the other hand racing kinda seems, fundamentally, like one big game of chicken (brake later, corner harder, until you make the pass or crash...or chicken out and don't attempt the pass).
I have pretty good idea of what is required on the technical side - tires, warmers, tech requirements for safety wiring, bellypan, numbers etc. I have access to a good riding coach for Friday training when I can afford it.
Interested in comments / advice more on the mindset - making the transition from trackdays to racing. At trackdays I am always looking for clear track to set a time, avoiding other riders however possible. In racing, I will need to pursue and actively engage other riders, trying to make a pass while keeping a margin for safety. It's really very different, and takes a lot more judgement. How does one strike that balance and adopt the right state of mind?
FYI, our organization does not do timed qualifying - on Saturday each class does a 6-lap qualifier race to determine grid positions for the Sunday races.
I don't think of racing as a game of chicken - if you focus too much on other riders you can end up riding their race and making their errors! For example, trying to "outbrake another rider" generally doesn't work, you end up blowing your entry speed (too fast or too slow) and screwing up your corner. Often as not, if a novice rider tries to outbrake another rider, they end up running off the track or running wide and blowing the corner. You must ride the TRACK and make your own decisions - but you can observe other riders and if they are doing something that works better, you can try it in the next lap.
The best learning experience for me in racing is when I have a rider ahead of me that I am trying to catch. I can see where I am catching up and where I am falling back, and it motivates me to drive harder and find places where I can be on the gas earlier or longer.
As far as passing goes, opportunities do present themselves, and as long as you are ready to take them (ie, not riding over your head) you can sometimes get passes without having to work hard for them. In the novice classes most everyone is nervous and they make errors that cost time - bad starts, missed shifts, coming in too fast, running wide, overbraking, late on the gas, you name it - so as long as you don't get so focused on them that you make the SAME error, they hand you a passing opportunity on a silver platter.
If a rider is competent and similar in pace to you, you may have to plan ahead and set up a pass in a place where you are confident and can see that you are faster, by squaring off the corner and getting a better drive (if you have a fast bike), or by carrying more entry speed at the entrance, or by just getting on the gas earlier than the other rider. Passing on the brakes can work but you will need to have very solid reference points in that turn for start of braking, end of braking, turn point and apex so that you can confidently adjust your line for different turn point, higher entry speed, etc., without falling apart later in the turn.
PS - I'm STILL not 100% sure I like it.
I didn't start young, either, and I definitely do not want to get hurt. But it does make me improve my riding and it is always an interesting experience - for one thing, I've made lots of friends at the races! -
For entertainment value. My FZR getting crashed by it's former owner.
What happened in this crash, do you know? Seems like weird place to crash, did someone hit him from behind?
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I rode dirt for years, but never had rode a street bike until last year in November. I took the MSF class through Harley Davidson which was an excellent course. Not the regular 2 day msf with 125cc bikes. This was a 5 day class and we used Buell Blasts which were 4 stroke 500cc I believe. We had 5 females in our class and they did great. These bikes are hard to come by these days.
I rode a Buell Blast once on the track at a test day - I was amazed how much fun it was to ride, and easy to manage, seemed like it would be a fun canyon bike. It is aptly named.
I'd seriously consider the BMW F800 if I was in the market for a street bike - it is comfortable but you can still go like hell on the racetrack with it. It would be a good bike for shorter riders - the only tough part is standing it up off the kickstand, it is rather heavy and the kickstand has it leaned over pretty far.
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I think older Ninja 250s are a great choice for starting out. They are inexpensive and easy to find, low seat heat, fun to ride but mild enough in acceleration and braking that they are not intimidating. Controls are easy to reach for small hands, too.
Suzuki DR200 dual sport is a good first bike, too, easy to ride, lightweight, low seat height - but for higher speed street rides (45mph plus) it isn't as stable or fun or comfortable as the Ninja.
I haven't sat on the new Ninja 300 but the more recent generation 250s seemed to be taller and harder for a small rider to manage than the older ones; the brakes and suspension were much more modern, though.
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That's pretty cool! How did the race car compare to your race bike??
Hm, that's an interesting question. Well, with four wide race tires it felt like it had an incredible amount of cornering grip, but it was a mid-engine car and was inclined to want to spin on the exits of turns, particularly on cold tires if you got on the gas while still turning. Being an open wheel car it felt sort of like a giant and very LOUD go-kart!
Some noticeable differences from being on a bike: it felt cramped, with a very narrow cockpit, and the sensations of being pressed against the sides of the car during hard cornering were foreign, compared to a bike. It was lower to the ground and felt more stable than a bike so it was less intimidating to push hard entering and exiting corners - I didn't want to spin out, but at least I didn't have to worry about highsiding!
Driving it overall seemed to take less muscle effort (I didn't have to hang off!) compared to a bike but felt more physically abusive since I banged and bruised my ribs, knees, and elbows due to bumps and cornering forces bringing me and the sides of the car together a lot. I imagine with a properly fitted custom seat much of that could be eliminated (the seat was too big for me and I was sliding around)... but not all of it; I think many drivers wear rib protectors.
It was fun, for sure, and had its own type of thrill... but I have to say, nothing I have ever ridden or driven has compared to the S1000RR for sheer mind-blowing acceleration.
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In Twist II Keith describes four different types of information you could receive about riding.
I'm curious about what sorts of things YOU have been told about riding (outside of the school), on the road or track, on the internet, from riding buddies, or motorcycle salesmen, etc. - whether it is funny, scary, misguided, true but not helpful, or just downright bizarre...
Challenge 1: name the four categories of information from Twist II.
Challenge 2: share with us what you have been told, and which of Keith's four categories you think best describes it.
Here are some things I have been told over the years:
"You just need to get more aggressive with your riding."
"Don't worry about adjusting the suspension, that really doesn't make any difference." (this was from a motorcycle dealer, BTW)
"Trust your tires."
What category(s) do these statements fit in, and what other examples can you share? -
I had no idea that clutchless downshifting was even possible until I read it on here. Tried it on the road and then on the track the other day and I'm completely sold. Far easier straight away. Felt much more comfortable in the braking zones, to the point that my braking markers were deeper yet I was more relaxed on the bike.
Brilliant technique.
Excellent! Glad to hear it worked so well for you, and I completely agree - it takes a lot of the complexity out of braking and downshifting together and makes it all quicker.
I got an opportunity to drive an open-wheel race car on a track recently, which required me to use the heel-toe braking-blipping-shifting technique. I have gotten so used to shifting without the clutch on the bike that it took some real concentration for me to re-coordinate using a clutch and getting the timing of using the clutch and blipping the gas properly!
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Benny - you asked for a reference, up above - Chapter 16 in A Twist of the Wrist II covers this whole topic really well.
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Glady you are here, and have decided to speak up.
Welcome and we look forward to your input! -
Seriously, though, your point is well taken. Where does basic become too basic? The reason I chose to start with steering is that I've seen a surprising number of experienced riders who still don't really understand how to properly countersteer a bike.
Benny
While I get Tyler's point about countersteering as a very basic skill, we did say "effectively steering" which, to me, defines the difference between a rider who can stay mostly in his lane on the street (basic skill) and a rider who can make the bike go EXACTLY where he wants it to go, with a rapid steering rate and no wasted effort (advanced skill).
As Benny says above, we see a remarkable number of riders that either don't specifically understand how countersteering works, or add some sort of (or VARIETY of) extra effort that they think is needed to turn the bike. Examples would include pressing down on the bars, gripping the bars tightly, trying to use leaning to steer, being very tense in their back, etc. - there are a multitude of ways a rider can complicate the simple action of countersteering the bike. Their relief in learning how to do it right is palpable, because it is invariably much simpler and more effective than what they were doing before.
On a more subtle and more advanced level, small errors in steering at a fast pace can create barriers to entry speed - the rider knows he can't go into a corner any faster because he perceives an instability in the bike (or just can't get it turned enough) - but has no idea why it is happening, blaming it on his tires or suspension, or maybe he just thinks he is "not brave enough".
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It would be interesting to know for sure, but my guess is that Rossi, Spencer, Roberts etc. didn't care much about steering inputs or throttle control initially. Instead, they likely had balls and they pushed until they crashed, climbed on board again, pushed to another crash etc. until they began to slowly get the message. Rossi writes in his book how they would end every day with a swim in the ocean because the salty water was good for cleaning up the road rash they had collected.
This reminds me of the section in Ch 6 of A Twist of the Wrist where Keith discusses the Trial and Error approach versus Think it Through, he talks about the advantages and disadvantages of both methods. Anybody remember what he says to use?
In the new movie Rush you get to see a great comparison of a thoughtful and methodical racer versus one who takes the "big balls" approach (his exact words). It's a GREAT movie and a true story. It's intense but I HIGHLY recommend it!
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I've done a little googling, but I can't seem to find a good answer to this question
How much of your total fork travel should you be using ??
obviously you don't want to be bottoming out your forks, but should you be fairly close to using all of it ? or 3/4 of it ??
after a few track days with a Zip Tie on my front fork , and some very aggressive braking on the straight at SoW I've only managed to use 84-86 mm of my 120 mm's of total travel. Should I be using more or is that perfectly fine ??
I think you have to go by feel on this, if the bike feels good to you (front end planted, good feedback, bike is holding a line, and is stable under braking) AND you are using at least 60-70% of the travel, you should be fine. SoW is not necessarily a track that would use all of your front compression - the same settings at Fontana, for example, would likely put that zip tie lower on the fork.
However if you were using less than half of the travel and the clickers were set at or near full soft, I'd want to check whether the front spring was too stiff for your weight and riding style, or if there is some other problem (oil or valving or bound forks).
If the bike feels stiff in front to you, where do you have the clickers set? If you haven't changed those at all, consider doing the suspension set up drill available from CSS, it goes through a settings checklist that allows you to try a full rage of settings to see how the bike feels in various scenarios, it helps a LOT in getting a good feel for what happens when the front is too soft or too hard, rebound is too slow or too quick, and various other setup problems.
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That would be Bob with eTech Photo. He does not have a website but you can reach him at etechphoto@usa.net.
I will send you a PM with his phone number.
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What Benny said!
Great post. I agree that visual skills are critically important, but visual skills won't do you much good if you can't make the bike go where you want it to go (using proper steering and throttle control).
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I drink about a gallon of ice'd tea a day
Tyler
Well, T, you are what you drink...
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Welcome to the forum, I look forward to meeting you in Vegas!
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Here are some disadvantages to holding in the clutch while downshifting multiple gears:
1) You can't really be sure that each downshift occurred - if the bike fails to shift a gear, went one too far, or hit a false neutral you wouldn't know until you started letting out the clutch, and if you did that while leaned over you could have a big problem. If you do each gear separately you can feel the gears change and know where you are.
2) It requires holding the clutch in longer so the rpm falls off a lot during that time, so when you do start letting out the clutch in the final lower gear, the engine speed will be too low to match the speed the rear wheel is spinning, which can cause the rear tire to slide, unless the clutch is let out very slowly, or the throttle is used to match the revs. (Slipper clutches help with this problem.) Usually you would use a quick throttle blip during your downshift to match the revs but that is a lot harder to judge properly when you drop multiple gears at once.
3) You have no engine braking while you are holding the clutch in, which means the bike is free-wheeling into the corner, which can feel too fast and cause a feeling of panic or cause overbraking, and also means that all the load for slowing the bike is on the front tire.
Generally the most reliable way to downshift is to do it by shifting one gear at a time, blipping the throttle to match revs, which prevents rear tire lockup and reduces strain on engine and clutch. It can be done very, very quickly, especially if you can learn to do it without the clutch; you can do a forum search for "clutchless downshifts" for more info on that.
You also mention letting out the clutch while already leaned over - certainly this is possible but it would take a LOT of attention on getting the clutch let out at exactly the right rate. While leaned over and trying to get back on the gas, any error with the clutch (letting it out too slow or too fast) OR the throttle (too much, too little, or too late) would compromise your traction and could cause a slide. Concentrating on getting the clutch let out at a perfect rate to maximize traction while also paying attention to lean angle, throttle, speed, and direction sounds like a lot to manage all at once!
At the school we have a braking/downshifting drill to coach riders through learning to brake and downshift simultaneaously (with or without the clutch), while blipping the throttle and matching engine revs. Once a rider is comfortable with this it can all be done prior to leaning the bike into a turn which makes turn entry a lot simpler overall!
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Folks if you know you are going to the track, or are going to partake in other strenuous activities you need to start your hydration prep (Beer doesn't count, it hurts
) a day or days ahead of the actual start date. Be advised that there are also limits to the amount of fluid intake per day!!!A good rule of thumb is 1ltr/ 1qt per hour during times of strenuous activity.
What is your regimen for getting hydrated the day (or days) before? I could use a better plan than the one I have now.
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There is a section in Twist II called "Discharging" that specifically addresses how to increase corner entry speed without firing off SRs. If you get the eBook you can just search the word Discharging and it will take you right to it.
Regarding laptimes, there are great GPS timers now that allow you to view your whole lap on your pc, and even compare two laps simultaneously so it looks like you are racing yourself. It can be enlightening! The one I have is a Starlane.
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As Eirik says, increasing the engine idle speed can help this. Have you tried downshifitng without the clutch? If you are already doing that, are you blipping the throttle to match engine rpm?
Also, you sound like a pretty advanced rider, do you have a laptimer that you can use to get some actual data on entry and exit speeds? If so, you can experiment with going in one gear higher and see if that allows you to carry a little more entry speed - you'' have less engine braking and the higher corner speed might get you into an rpm range where you can still drive out in the higher gear.
It can be very hard to judge whether you are faster overall through the corner in one gear versus another unless you have specific data to compare.
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) a day or days ahead of the actual start date. Be advised that there are also limits to the amount of fluid intake per day!!!
Spartan Leathers.
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
I have a custom suit from Z Custom, I love it. I was sort of forced into it originally beacuse I couldn't find women's leathers made for racing, everything was just made for street/passenger riding and didn't have knee sliders which were a requirement. But I was really glad I did it, the cost wasn't much higher and the quality is fantastic. I had a second set made recently - nothing wrong with the old ones, but I'd had them for years and I wanted a new design.