racer
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Posts posted by racer
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Honestly Ben,
I don't think it is personal, I think that most of the members reading your questions simply don't have the answers you seek. And those who might have a viewpoint to offer know that it isn't really the sort of thing one can apply a simple 1, 2, 3 set of rules or steps to, hence, advanced riding schools.
Then there are those like me who are ashamed to admit that they never gave a whole lot of thought to how they managed to find themselves still on the brakes in the middle of a last lap corner thanking god they hadn't crashed in yet another braking duel.
And I stopped using the rear brake for slowing down (except in slippery conditions) when I started road racing and have rarely raced a bike powerful enough to consider using the rear brake to modulate or control wheel spin under acceleration. Even most of the pro's who used the rear brake flat-track style "pre-slide" steering into the corner gave it up as a standard technique and it went out of fashion. That is not to say that nobody ever uses it, and it is dramatic and fun to watch, but, the place I would seek information on that is a flat track riding school. I suggest Danny Walker's American Supercamp here: http://www.americansupercamp.com/
There may be another flat track school closer to you, but, this is one whose owner I am familiar with and trust.
The rear end lifting and snaking under heavy braking is sort of a "so what?" for me. I consider it a normal fact of life. It doesn't really bother me and I don't pay much of my ten dollars worth of attention to it.
That said, much of what you seek has been discussed at length here and Keith himself has discussed some of the areas where you want advice here in the forum. I suggest using the search function to find some of his posts.
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LOL! Racer, you been hangin' out with Stu lately?
LOL :chagrin:
I've been biting my tongue working doubleshifts six days a week for almost a month.
I definitely need a time out!
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You will probably have a better chance of finding an answer for that in "School Questions".
I believe someone from the school said that the 2008 schedule is being worked on right now.
Ah, here it is : http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.ph...post&p=4896
Gotta love that search button up top.
Of course, I don't know if the UK handles their own schedule. You might try contacting Andy Ibbot or one of his managers on the UK contact list here: http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk/contact.php
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I've been wondering how to do international track days...did you ship your bikes there? Rent bikes? Or are you lucky enough to live nearby?
We've been waiting two months for bruntr's Brno update. I hope all is well.
Some years ago in my nearly forgotten misspent youth, an obscure magazine writer published a story about riding a track day at the Nurburgring on the original 28 km "long course" (they don't race on it anymore). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring
Riding the old course has been a "childhood dream" of mine ever since.
I seem to recall the magazine writer rode a BMW (motorcycle) that he simply rented over there in Germany (not at the track). In any case, I would think that unless one is racing, renting "over there" would be the way to go.
ETA: it seems that with the construction of the new GP track that the old course ("north loop") has been shortened a couple of miles. Still, at 70 + corners of closed course, one might spend a lifetime learning it. I can hardly imagine a cooler challenge.
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Hi all, I'm Kristi, local to Southern California.
I'm new to the forum, but not to the Superbike School. Whether being a student, corner worker or Mechanic's Little Helper, I find a way to be around the track as frequently as possible. I've been riding for 1 year, and have been getting into club racing with my '06 Kawasaki ZX-6R. Nice to meet you folks.
Dobro po¾alovat'
Willkommen
Benvenuta
Witamy
Aloha
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Lazy works for me, too.
The new bike sounds hot! Is it for the street or for the track? Or both?
not sure which new bike you are refering to.....
the 99 ZX6e (new to me, but.....) is mostly for the track. I ride it on the street occasionally, but w/o mirrors I'm doing it less and less.
the bike to be (probably a 08/09 ZX6R) will see some track time, but it won't be dedicated.
Whoops, my bad. I tend to skim thru stuff when I have a minute to spare and I see now I got confused.
So, what spring did you use for the Works shock? Did you use the stock spring or a new one?
How do you like the 1 kg springs up front? Do they feel too "hard" for riding on the street?
I don't have a specific frame of reference for the fork spring rating (or shock), do they require much pre-load? Less than before?
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Lazy works for me, too.
The new bike sounds hot! Is it for the street or for the track? Or both?
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I always recommend using the school's bike for a number of reasons.
My favorite reason is because their bike's are very well set up and prepared for the track and will allow you to experience just what a properly set up track prepped bike is SUPPOSED to feel like.
(It always uesd to mess with my head to get back on my street bike after riding a school bike all day and becoming adapted to it...lol)
Moreover, riding a street bike on track is like, well ... like riding a street bike anywhere else. It feels like the same bike and acts like the same bike and compared to what is available on the school bikes, IMO, it could be limiting to riders who really want to get what it feels like to track ride, so to speak. That doesn't mean that riding your own bike will not allow you to perform the drills properly or reduce one's learning experience in any way ... except for learning what a really well set up track machine feels like.
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Hey, that's a great article with Tony Foale on the home page.
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Hey if ALL THE PROS are doing it then you should do it that way too. Sorry for the bad advice. Just do it the way the pros do and I'm sure you'll be fine.
ROFL
(Does somebody need a "time out"?)
Ahem...when I rode big heavy diesels, erm ... I mean four strokes ... I remained on the seat for prolonged heavy braking like one might do at the end of a straightaway slowing for a sharp corner (like not a sweeper) and squeezed the tank with my knees to keep my weight off my hands and the handlebars. I would then slide my butt and hang off immediately prior to initiating turning inputs.
On some other types of turns I would hang off first (with my knee tucked in) and use the inside of my thigh to hold myself up. And I would only drop my knee near the apex of the turn to use as a feeler gauge. This could tend to put me in a crossed up position for hanging off (which was what most people tended to do to some degree or another at the time), especially if I sat up from behind the bubble to any degree. Many riders, even PRO's still do that today. That doesn't make it the best way. I would narrow my view to take a look at what most pro champions (winners) are doing.
I found using my core muscles to curl my butt under my body and keep my weight in my feet was also helpful. In any case, I have not studied much of the latest riding tech from the school and am not as well versed as some others in what is currently being taught, but, I've heard expressions like "locking on" bandied about and from the context assume that this might have some relevance to what is being discussed here. I'm sure a PRO rider/PRO riding coach like Stuman could fill you in better than I could.
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They have a website. Here is the contact page: http://www.roadracingworld.com/contacts/
You might try the "Letters to the Editor" address to reach Editor Ulrich directly.
There is also a search function on the website you might use to look for info on glove tests.
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Hi guys. Newbie here. Ive been looking at the alpinestars gp tech gloves. When I called to order them from a company, the salesman REFUSED to sell them to me saying he would not have a clear conscience because of the poor quality of these $239 gloves. Please I would like to get some advice from track experienced people on the quality of these gloves at high speed crashes. Thanks, cya.
Roadracing world magazine used to publish annual "crash test" results for various gloves. You might get some good info there. Try emailing them or John directly with an inquiry. I'm sure he'll be only too happy to give you his opinion.
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The truly proper spring rate requires no pre-load. Under normal circumstances, the weight of the bike alone would hold the spring in some compression. As I understand it, under negative G-loading, the rear of the bike would lift off of the spring. The basic idea is that the pre-load adjuster would be backed off such that the spring is left loose on the shock when the rear is on the stand (negative pre-load). I've never done this myself, I've only been told about it by others who said they have. (They were national champions and I took their word for it.) I'm not sure what modifications (if any) might have been needed.
After re-reading this post, I think I can make it easier to understand.
In the last part of the sentence: "The basic idea is that the pre-load adjuster would be backed off such that the spring is left loose on the shock when the rear is on the stand (negative pre-load)" ... the phrase "on the stand" could be misinterpreted to mean 'side stand'. And a rear race stand generally holds a bike at the swingarm or rear axle, hence, the swingarm and suspension are not "hanging free" (like under heavy braking). And even if a street bike has a center stand, unless the bike is weighted onto the front wheel, it may still rest on the rear.
The main point is that the rear suspension would be free hanging when considering a lack of pre-load or "loose spring" setting. I generally accomplish this by jacking/lifting and resting the frame bottom on blocks. Dirt bikers frequently use a milk crate. I don't recommend the milk crate technique for your Ninja...lol.
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Hope you are feeling better, Stuman.
Get well soon.
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The truly proper spring rate requires no pre-load. Under normal circumstances, the weight of the bike alone would hold the spring in some compression. As I understand it, under negative G-loading, the rear of the bike would lift off of the spring. The basic idea is that the pre-load adjuster would be backed off such that the spring is left loose on the shock when the rear is on the stand (negative pre-load). I've never done this myself, I've only been told about it by others who said they have. (They were national champions and I took their word for it.) I'm not sure what modifications (if any) might have been needed.
Hmm, that's just not jiving with my data. I thought the purpose of preload was to force the wheel to the ground when the bike goes over dips. If there's no preload, the wheel wouldn't react fast enough to the bumps in the road.
What data are you referring to, Greg?
The purpose of pre-load is to compensate for a too soft spring rate.
Due to gravity, the weight of a bike and rider will compress any spring to "force the wheel to the ground when the bike goes over dips". The critical issue of "fast enough" is a matter of spring rate. Pre-load will effectively increase the spring rate (essentially at the expense of geometry and suspension travel).
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I would think that the salient point is the *correct spring rate* combined with zero pre-load.
Momentum could be lost due to a too soft spring rate and the excessive damping rates required to control it. Lots of energy being dissipated and "lost" there. The more energy that is loaded into the spring itself (as opposed to the damping system), the more it will be recovered, translated and maintained as momentum.
Another reason for using the correct spring rate is that adding pre-load effectively alters ride height and geometry.
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The truly proper spring rate requires no pre-load. Under normal circumstances, the weight of the bike alone would hold the spring in some compression. As I understand it, under negative G-loading, the rear of the bike would lift off of the spring. The basic idea is that the pre-load adjuster would be backed off such that the spring is left loose on the shock when the rear is on the stand (negative pre-load). I've never done this myself, I've only been told about it by others who said they have. (They were national champions and I took their word for it.) I'm not sure what modifications (if any) might have been needed.
I've heard this too, but I think this applies to 125's and 250's since the bikes are so light. If memory serving me correctly Keith rode 250's in AMA. He could answer the question for sure.
Actually, although one of them was a 250 national champion, both the guys who told me about it were superbike racers at the time and were discussing superbikes from the late 80's and early 90's.
In any case, I'm not sure why a GP bike being lighter would have any bearing on it. And being that the technique is all about keeping the rear wheel in contact with the pavement under *heavy braking*, in my opinion, a GP bike probably wouldn't benefit much from it.
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The truly proper spring rate requires no pre-load. Under normal circumstances, the weight of the bike alone would hold the spring in some compression. As I understand it, under negative G-loading, the rear of the bike would lift off of the spring. The basic idea is that the pre-load adjuster would be backed off such that the spring is left loose on the shock when the rear is on the stand (negative pre-load). I've never done this myself, I've only been told about it by others who said they have. (They were national champions and I took their word for it.) I'm not sure what modifications (if any) might have been needed.
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Due to a glitch, this post was originally a copy of the previous post, hence, I edited it to a period or "oops".
However, as I was reading through the thread looking for a specific previous post/quote, I noticed that jrock has continued to extensively edit the salient points of his previous post which mine was a reply to (even adding the physics link I posted for him) many days after his original post (with many edits) rather than creating a new post with his new points at the end of the thread.
Had I not been reading back through the thread, I would never have noticed the addittional new points/edits and anyone reading this thread for the first time might find my reply post an apparent non-sequiter.
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Check two things:
Firstly as above, your front forks could be bottoming out and the rear wheel lifting as a result. Check your travel with a cable tie/zip tie to see how much travel you have left. If there is none, preload the front more.
If you are not bottoming the front then the rear rebound damping is too hard. Dial off rebound to allow the wheel to return to the ground and track in a straight line.
If you are going to get serious and acquire the perfect spring, you can forget (rear) preload altogether and even leave the spring loose when topped out (like negative preload) allowing the rear of the bike to lift completely off the spring without lifting the rear wheel. This was a common trick used by some superbike racers back in "my day".
Rear End Wiggling Around While Braking
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
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