racer
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Posts posted by racer
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Hi kwh,
If there is "extra grip" left over, wouldn't it be preferable to use it to carry more speed, rather than use it to slow down?
(Aside from say a decreasing radius turn, of course.)
Hey, can you post a clip of one of those on-screen telemetry readouts of mid-corner braking? That sounds really cool!
Erm...maybe not...copyrights, private use, etc. Maybe if there were a clip posted on youtube or somewhere that we could link to?
Perhaps you could simply cite a specific example from your own experience that we can refer to? Like this rider in this corner from this and such a race broadcast on this and such a date?
Cheers,
r
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The only dry clutches I have personally experienced were on TZ's. And the two times I ever rode one, I never thought to conduct tests of this particular phenomemon...lol.
However, I can imagine that even without oil there is some contact and friction going on between the plates while "disengaged". Of course there is simply the rotating mass of the mainshaft itself to consider. I wonder if shifting really quickly to reduce time (in false "neutral") between engagements would have some effect on the characterisitic of "the clunk". Or if a faster more forceful shift would merely reduce the time the synchro's had to "help"? Hmmm...
IN any case, if the dogs are worn more on one side than the other, it sounds logical to account for a different sounding "clunk" while catching a gear off-speed in one direction or another. As for the rest of your points/questions ... I'm going to have sit down with a pot of coffee and think all of them through when I can devote the time. For the moment, I'm just going with overall limitations of the synchro-mesh no matter the circumstance. I mean the friction bumps are smaller than the divits in a bloody golf ball!
Oh, I definitely had professional "adult" supervision the first time I swapped out shaft and gear in my "old" RS. No shame in that. Just plain old common sense! And I was still gritting my teeth the first time I let out the clutch...reeeeal slow!
Of course, the "newer" model RS's have a "cassette" style tranny so that the cases don't need to be split at all! Although it sorta leaves one fat fingered and fumbling in the dark by feel for shift forks and farside shaft/bearing insertion (sorta like the first time...er...nevermind). It's always something of a trade off I suppose.
At the end of the day, it's just a machine. A machine designed and assembled by a human being. And, generally speaking, what one human can do, so can another. If you ever have need to attack a tranny, I'm sure you'll do jus' fine. Nuttin' but a few circlips, really.
"Spoons in a disposal" ... LMAO. Yeah and that's pretty much what they look like when yer done, too!
Have a great day!
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Wow!
Great report!
Love the drama!
Keep 'em comin'!
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I am not jealous. I am not jealous. I am not jealous. I am not jealous. I am not ...
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While running lower pressures or cutting a tread may heat them up more, I don't think it will heat them up much faster to make a significant difference for you.
Honestly, there is no substitute:
http://search.ebay.com/motorcycle-tire-war...dZm37QQfromZR40
This was merely the first place I looked. With bit of effort, you can surely find an inexpensive used set for your bike. I would suggest trying the GP websites like fatbaq.com or the GP chat site which I can't remember right now. Try approaching the USGPRU for 125 riders. Surely some 125 rider has an affordable set of used warmers for you.
Where there's a will there's a way.
r
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Yup that was my bad. Nearly all manual transmissions are constant mesh, there for all gears and moving the same speed. Sorry for the confusion and sticking it to your "Craw".
. I gotta lay off the grape juice.LOL. No worries. I take full responsibility for clearing my own craw.
Sooo ... about that "clunk"?
Perhaps, in that circumstance, the difference in RPM between the fibers and steels inside the "wet" clutch creates some resistance due to hydraulic stiction applying a negative torque to the mainshaft during the "false neutral" between gears which might be more than the synchro-mesh is able to compensate for?
In other words, if the clutch basket/fiber plates and steel plates were closer in RPM during the shift, the oil might be less of a "brake" and the synchro's more able to overcome any rotational resistance when attempting to match the next gear for the dogs to engage?
If so, would that mean a "dry" clutch would not experience the same "clunk"?
Or I could be drinking too much grape juice myself...
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Think of it this way. If you were to travel down a (long) staight of way, pull in the clutch and hold it (without shifting), the engine RPM would drop and go to an idle. At this point, the bike would be coasting, EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE STILL IN 6TH GEAR. If you let the clutch out, the engine will rev back up to match the speed of the rear tire.
OK, if you were to do this and down shift, the transmission would give a big "clunk" because the gears are traveling a very different speeds, since 6th gear is engaged (traveling at the speed of the rear tire) and 5th gear (not yet engaged) ***is traveling at the speed of the motor.*** By blipping the throttle you are raising the RPM of the motor to help match the speed of the rear tire. The closer these two gears are in speed, the easier the bike will shift.
Now blipping the throttle in normal riding (fast paced) puts less load on the tranny, but also smooths out the transition between the two gears
Hey there 2big,
How is it that 5th gear (not yet engaged) is traveling at the speed of the motor when the clutch is pulled in at high road speed with 6th gear still engaged and engine RPM allowed to fall to idle?
BH
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I'm glad you enjoyed my "story". I hope it answered your question(s) regarding my motorcycle experience with enough relevant detail.
You will undoubtedly have mad fun and learn a lot with CSS at Barber and I am looking forward to hearing all about it afterward.
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Ok, so here's the question ...
If the clutch separates the engine from the tramsmission, why does letting the rpm fall while the clutch lever is pulled in and while the engine is separated from the transmission seem to affect the nature or characterisitc of a shift?
Above, 2big said:
Think of it this way. If you were to travel down a (long) staight of way, pull in the clutch and hold it (without shifting), the engine RPM would drop and go to an idle. At this point, the bike would be coasting, EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE STILL IN 6TH GEAR. If you let the clutch out, the engine will rev back up to match the speed of the rear tire.OK, if you were to do this and down shift, the transmission would give a big "clunk" because the gears are traveling a very different speeds, since 6th gear is engaged (traveling at the speed of the rear tire) and 5th gear (not yet engaged) ***is traveling at the speed of the motor.*** By blipping the throttle you are raising the RPM of the motor to help match the speed of the rear tire. The closer these two gears are in speed, the easier the bike will shift.
Now blipping the throttle in normal riding (fast paced) puts less load on the tranny, but also smooths out the transition between the two gears
While I am familiar with the "clunk" that happens just when, where and how 2big describes, the more I think it through and look at the sequential transmission diagrams ... the more confused I get.
There is definitely something happening ... but what?
How does the rpm of the motor affect the transmission if the clutch is pulled in?
And since the gears are essentially freewheeling and matched to the next gear by synchro-mesh, why does it matter what rpm the engine is moving with the clutch pulled in.
It took a few minutes of working through the standard transmission shift process before it occurred to me, and, after a few years of not looking at tranny shafts, I wanted to be certain so I dug up some diagrams which are linked above.
The phrase I highlighted with triple asterix in 2big's explanation is what really stuck in my craw. It sounds logical if we think about a transmission as being like a mountain bike's gear sets where the two sides of the gear set are in fact separated. However, looking at our transmissions diagrams, this does not seem to be the case.
It looks like each gear set is in fact constantly engaged with each other (input/mainshaft side to ouput/countershaft side) and that what is separated is one gear from the shaft on one side or the other.
Perhaps I am seeing it wrong and someone else would be kind enough to comment on what they see before I go out on a limb to offer my "final solution"?
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I'm diggin the websites. Helps tremendously. And I'll definately be looking for cornerworking classes. Since you have been a wealth of information, I have another question if you don't mind. The blip technique calls for engaging the clutch after each shift. I know this is because sequential transmissions need to be reloaded, but why? Any ideas?
Slept about 4 hrs and got up about 3am to skywatch for Perseids. Bear with my blurry head ...
While you might "get away" without letting the clutch out between every shift, it IS a very good idea to do so.
Off the top of my blurry head, I would say it (reloading) maybe helps a bit to "set" the dogs after each shift so they don't "pop out" and create a "false" neutral. The edges of the dogs are slightly beveled, or should be, and might not settle all the way to the bottom of the "hole" or "slot" in the mating gear unless the mainshaft is loaded a bit.
Anyway ...
Maybe it helps to spin up the mainshaft to be closer in rpm for the next shift, making for better chance of smooth engagement between each new gear ratio?
I think this (the mainshaft rpm issue) goes back toward what 2big said about letting the engine rpm fall to idle, and the blip assisting the actual gear engagement ... and is precisely where I am feeling hazy myself. I'll need to think it through later when I am sharper.
I don't know whether to make more coffee or go back to bed. I'll compromise and lay on the couch
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WOW! I had to get my tech manual out.
It's been a few years since I rebuilt a motorcycle tranny and I was feeling a little hazy about some of the details of the motorcycle sequential transmission and all this blipping intrigue myself today so I went and found some links to try to get clear about it all. Here is some of what I found:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/sequential-gearbox1.htm
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/motorcycle2.htm
http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/honda...ansmission.html
The first two links may take some time to download but have really good illustrative detail and descriptions.
The last link is less detailed but is really cool and good because it lets you shift at your own pace.
I'll be back soon to try to sort it all out.
Have a great weekend all.
BH
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Edit my last post, use the blip to save your clutch. I actually clutchless upshift, and my understanding is that helps save the plates too. I have the factory book for my bike, but it doesn't even mention things like the gear position sensor, or even the FI light. My owner's manual had more in it than the factory manual. The manual does give some steps, but not pictures for the specially educated, such as myself. Maybe I have the wrong one? It's a cd-rom adobe version. Anyway, thanks for your help racer. I noticed you did a lot of cornerworking, and I am quite sure that it helps with your riding, any advice?
Yep. Not using your clutch saves wear on your clutch.
And blipping the throttle to match engine to road speed (or to transmission speed) will also avoid unnecessary wear as the plates won't spin against each other so much when they come back together.
The service manual will have information necessary to repair and maintain your machine. Sometimes, more basic maintenance spec's and service limits will be found in the owner's manual along with operational imformation like how to operate the bells and whistles or interpret the various indicator lamps or readouts. I have no idea what an FI light is. (fuel indicator?)
The only information I would expect to find on "indicator lamps" in your factory service manual would be harness layout and wiring schematics to trace or troubleshoot electrical problems. They sort of assume you know how to use a screwdriver and change a light bulb .. and would think to test a bulb in any case before tracing the entire electrical system for a fault.
Tips? Yeah ... go cornerwork!
It is a required duty to receive a racing license in at least some of the clubs I know of. Personally, I believe it should be mandatory duty for every rider/racer to volunteer to work some minimum schedule like once or twice a year. Broken into half day shifts if necessary. Working practice days are especially encouraged as this is when corner crews tend to be short handed.
As a rider, not only is it an invaluable learning tool to gain information from studying what the "experts" are doing with their lines and throttle in any specific corner from a more "up close and personal" angle and distance than the typical spectator's vantage point, but; cornerworking is the foundation for creating the environment that allows any of us to ride on track with any expectation of safety. They inspect the track surface and conditions and communcate with the tower and stations around the track to warn riders of any changes in conditions from the last lap or from standard/safe conditions in upcoming corneres by waving colored flags or hand signals.
Without corner workers, the race track would be only marginally safer than the street. You would never know what might be coming around the next bend. I have ridden practice days without a good flagging crew before and it is a truly scary thing. i have also seen practice days canceled outright for lack of a minimum crew and ambulance.
So, sure, I can be relatively certain that there won't be any little old ladies crossing the road or ten ton trucks coming head on "in my lane", but, that doesn't mean that the track won't be blocked by some level of carnage or covered with oil from a leaking bike as I tip into that next blind sweeper at something over 100 mph.
And the only way any of that mess gets cleaned up ... bikes and riders picked up, surface cleaned up ... is by the efforts of cornerworkers. And, the ugly truth is, chances are, it will be you or one of your buddies whose life depends on somebody's quick thinking, quick action or level of first-aid training on a corner while waiting for the ambulance. Racetrack riding as we know it today could not exist without cornerworkers.
So, do your duty, and do yourself and your riding skills a big favor, and go work a corner. Better yet, work all the corners. And do yourself and all your buddies a favor and take a basic first aid training course. And when you meet someone in whites around the paddock, make sure to thank them and treat them with the greatest respect as your life is literally in their hands.
In hindsight, I should really add to my little riding history/story that I posted yesterday to say that, in addition to crediting Keith Code's training for my taking second place in my first race ever, I would also have to credit the fact that I cornerworked every corner of Bridgehampton for two years before I raced there.
Hug a cornerworker today, your life depends on their well being tomorrow.
Cheers,
BH
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I've recently done a track day and was picked up for "Powering round the corners". I was told not to get on the throttle until I hit the apex of the corner otherwise I would could highside. This has me confused as I thought it was best to get on the gas as soon as possible. If I was near to highsiding then could I simply be applying too much throttle? When I tip the bike in should I apply a small amount of throttle and then increase this very gradually through the turn?
Hi qzrlsd,
Someone like Kevin Kane or 2bigalow who are more familiar with the current teaching methods at the school would be better equipped to answer this, but, I will take a stab at it.
First, it is always difficult to say anything without "being there" to see what the coach sees. That said ...
Chances are that you are/were not carrying anything near to the actual limit of corner speed or lean angle, hence, there is more traction available than ordinarily would be were you actually near the limit and you are/were sort of "getting away" with more throttle than you otherwise would at a more spirited pace. Hence, although you are "getting away with it", so to speak, you might be learning what amounts to a "bad habit", as it were .... AND .... yes, I would say that you are correct in your last question: tip the bike in and apply a small amount of throttle and increase gradually through the turn.
In general, it is possible to get on the gas too hard, too early and risk applying a sudden "shock" to the coefficient of traction, so to speak. In other words, although there might be enough traction available for the cornerspeed you are attempting to achieve, it is the sudden application of acceleration (rate of change) that will break the tire loose before the contact patch has a chance to "react" or adapt.
Tire compounds are almost alive in the way they "react" to inputs of force. And there is a delay, that is to say, it takes a certain amount of time for a particular compound to reshape or adapt itself to irregularities in the road surface or to stress forces applied. And it also takes time for the compound to "recover" or "remember" its original shape or condition. There is literally a "hysteresis" curve or loop between reaction/adaptation time and memory/recovery time that applied force or stress needs to stay within from a scientific point of view.
The contact patch viewed in slow motion would be seen to be constantly growing and shrinking a little bit while gripping and releasing the road as the tire turns onto each little new part of "tread" or rubber surface.
Anyway, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable about the school's current policies and procedures can give you a more direct or concise (if practiced) answer to your question.
Cheers,
racer
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Well, believe it or not, all you had to say was, "If you don't use the blip technique, you'll chew up the gears." Enough said, that works for me. However, I did thoroughly enjoy the read. I'm a bit of a grease monkey myself, although I'm not a tranny rebuilder in the least. Maybe this is why it helps me to be a better rider, because I understand what you said. Anyway, thanks for that post. Awesome stuff. And I'm looking for a tech manual for my bike, any thoughts on the Clymer?
Erm, sorry. That's what I was afraid of. Technically, the purpose of the blip technique is to smooth out the clutch re-engagement if you are using the clutch.
If you are not using the clutch, then, yes, the blip will allow you to shift without chewing up your gears.
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Nothing wrong per se with Clymer or Chilton. Often times they will include 'tips' that a factory service manual doesn't.
Personally, I used them all the time to keep my jalopies running and teach myself how to work on machines.
That said, nowadays, I always buy a factory service manual because they tend to be more model specific with certain spec's and some info a Clymer's won't have. And sometimes you can get factory technical updates that your Clymer won't have.
When I went from weekend warrior working on my worn out Subaru to serious race wrenching and motor re-building, I went full time to a factory service manual. It may be more expensive, but, to me it is worth it and I can always use the other for a fall back.
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Well since everyone comes here to talk about bikes....lets talk about them.
Racer - what do you ride? How long have you been at it (riding that is)?
Well, that really would be talking about me as opposed to riding techniques or motorcycle tech/set up. But, you are right. I should probably post some of that info in my profile since I have taken a more active role in the forum of late.
For now, I will go off topic here and say that I started riding in 1977 on a Yamaha DT100 and bought my first roadbike (a 1983 Kawasaki 440LTD) after I graduated and moved out of my folks house as I was not allowed to own one while living under their roof. Two years and 50,000 miles later I got a 600 Ninja. The following year I bought a GPz 750 for road trips. The next summer (1987) I attended my first race meeting as a spectator at Mid-Ohio AMA National and the following year (1988) I took my first CSS class at Watkins Glen on a Ninja 600 and my second class on a Ninja 250 at Mid-Ohio later that summer.
In 1989, I attended the AMA National at Loudon, New Hampshire where I began cornerworking for the US Marshalls and CSS. I worked some more events at Mid-Ohio and Bridgehampton and reversed my CSS schedule to ride the 250 at Watkins Glen and the 600 at Mid-Ohio.
The following year (1990) I worked a couple more weekends for CSS and almost moved to California to work full time for the school. Instead, I continued cornerworking events all over the eastern US including but not limited to Bridgehampton, Loudon (AMA National), Nelson Ledges (WERA 24 Hour Endurance), Mid-Ohio (AMA National), and Charlotte (AMA National) where I once picked up Freddie Spencer from a first lap crash. (That might have been July '91?)
I think F-USA started that year. I worked the Pocono events where I got to see Ulrich's Monsters and Kenny's Kids on "screamer" YZR500's ride the Pocono speedway high banks right here on American soil, yep yep. And working at the Road Atlanta round, I couldn't believe my eyes watching Robbie Petersen and Rich Oliver carry the front wheel of their 500 Gp bikes out from under the bridge and all the way down the hill only to use the exit curb at the bottom as a berm onto the front straight. I still get goose bumps just thinking about that.
I think the cornerworking highlight of 1991 had to be the Aurora Borealis blazing above the infield campfires overnight at the Nelson 24 Hour race while my best friend and I worked the corner station at the back straight kink to call in any bikes that rode off into the swamp. (Not an uncommon occurence.) Jimmy was blown away. His head kept swinging back and forth from up at the northern lights to back down at several sets of headlights emerging from the darkness through thick fog at 150+ mph not ten feet away from us and saying over and over, "I've never seen anything like that!" and "I can't believe they let people do this!"
I was never quite certain whether he was talking about the aurora, the race bikes or us.
I bought my first race bike in August 1991, a Yamaha FZR400, and took the Penguin School at the traditional Labor Day Bridgehampton AMA/CCS weekend where I earned a second place trophy in my first race ever. I credit my learning experiences with Keith Code and CSS for that. The following weekend at Loudon, I won the second race I ever entered. I take credit for that. Sorry Keith. I have to give myself some credit sometime, eh? At the AMA/CCS Pro-Am champs at Daytona that fall, I started last row in a points gridded field of about 50 bikes and raced my way to ninth place before running out of fuel on the last lap because, although I measured the fuel correctly for the race, I had forgotten to turn the petcock to RES. DOH! I think I finished 11th or 13th or something after I realized what happened and turned the petcock. I still carry a proof sheet photo of myself (riding over Scott Russel's crash marks) in the International Horseshoe from that weekend in my wallet.
Over the next two years I rode an FZR600 and built an FZR 400/600 (stuffed the 600 motor into a 400 frame) to race at the last ever 1993 WERA 24 Hour Endurance Race at Nelson Ledges (true Le Mans start). We broke a chain, lost about 40 minutes and finished about 7th I think. Anyway, I continued racing my FZR400 and won a box full of podium trophies. I also got to "test" a TZ250 at a Nelsons practice day.
In late October 1993, hours before I was to leave for the GNF at Road Atlanta where I intended to win or die trying, I was hit by a car on the GPz750 and shattered my left arm and wrist (almost lost my left hand), sustained other internal injuries and spent the following year (1994) recuperating from four operations with big hunks of metal hanging out of my arm and working as a CRC or WERA official helping out Linda Lu with course control at Nelson's or hanging out with Kurt Hall in the announcer's booth at Savannah (Roebling Road). I also started a race shop/race team with some racing "buddies", but, my "business partners" turned out to be more interested in "hanging out" than working so I took my money and split. Oh well. Live and learn. I don't rightly recall if I got back on course that summer/fall or not. If I did, it was only once or twice at Loudon and Nelson, but, I don't really recall anymore.
I never bought or rode another street bike after the accident, but, in 1995 I bought a Honda RS125RR factory roadracer and went GP racing. And fell in love with it. I mostly ran the WERA National series and won enough money to pretty much cover my expenses every weekend. I have an ESPN tape of the Gratten F-USA/WERA National event somewhere around here with Kurt Hall announcing my name over and over again as the pack drafted and battled down the front straight lap after lap with me repeatedly winning the braking duel for turn one. That was ESPN in case you missed it.
1996 was a busy year at home and I honestly don't think I raced at all that year.
In 1997 I bought a leftover new 1996 RS125RR from Moto-Liberty and took delivery at Road Atlanta where I renewed my relationship with Keith Code and friends. (Unless that was 1995 spring weekend? It's a bit hazy.) Over the next couple of years I tweaked and modified the '96 RS with B-kits, A-kits, airbox, pipes, wheels, interchangable head inserts, electronic shifter, unobtainable by civilians at any price D-bore factory carb with fully adjustable power jet from WGP (MotoGP) circuit in Europe, etc, etc, etc and basically continued to have a lot of fun. The highlight of '97 was driving to GNF at Road Atlanta with comet Hale-Bopp keeping me company out the right side of the van windshield all night.
The highlight in 1998 was pitting with Bruce Lind, working with Rodney Fee and Ben Solis, making new friends and re-connecting with old friends at the Laguna Seca WSB round where I got bumped off in the only qualifying session and had to wait on the bubble until Sunday when two riders withdrew due to injuries suffered in morning practice crashes and I was able to petition the AMA with Audrey's (event sponsor) help for the last grid position (50th) less than two hours before the race.
After all that drama, I feel compelled to share a race synopsis ...
From dead last 50th (couldn't even see the flag drop), I worked my way up to 20th in 6 laps (passed 29 other riders) and was again bumped off on the white flag lap but remounted to finish like 25 or 27... something like that. Whatever. It was only like 8 or 10 laps. Had I been able to post a qualifier, I would easily have qualified in the top third of the 60+ entries that included riders from England, Canada and Japan in addition to the USA. That was the first time I ever rode that track. I raced a few more events after that, but, homelife took precedence for awhile.
In 2003, I sold the bikes and moved to New Zealand to help out with Midge Smart's 125GP effort down under. My A-kit tuning experience opened the door for me and Mitch's amazing riding ability earned the team four NZ National Championship titles. I could fill a book with stories of traveling New Zealand with a bunch of utterly mad Kiwi racers like Jason Easton and Shaun Harris. But having emergency surgery to repair a broken tooth by Andy Stroud's dentist would have to take the cake ... lol.
Well, except maybe for being able to claim that I've ridden the southernmost race track on the planet at Invercargill, NZ.
Right now, I'm looking around for something special to start a new collection. And, if things go well, I may find myself back on track sooner rather than later. Time will tell.
I realize that barely scratches the surface, really, but; it should give you something of a glimpse into my motorcycles and riding experience.
So ... what about you?
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So it is considered bashing her whenever I am just saying that she was being a smart a$$ to me?
Yes, it is.
All I am saying is that it was not handled very professionally.Sooo ... that is a reason for you to handle "it" and yourself unprofessionally?
If you are unable to resolve a personal issue with her, the indicated course of action is to address the issue through proper channels. Bad mouthing her (or ranting as you put it) behind her back on the school's forum is not a proper channel. And essentially ineffective. If she did, in fact, behave in an unprofessional fashion, the folks who need to know about it to be able to correct the situation are not being informed.
As for voicing your opinion, valid or not, about the office girl here ... well ... I can't speak for everyone, but, I come to hear about motorcycles and riding techniques, eh?
I am bringing my lap timer for two reasons.....first they are new and I would like to see if they work before I go to another track day and second I don't want to have to pay for my lap times from the school if I have a device that can tell me right then and there for free.I was unaware that the school had begun charging for laptimes. If that is true, I can see why you would want to be able to record your own. Laptimes are a foundational element of Keith's philosophy of the proof being in the pudding, so to speak, and were always an integral tool used at the school when I attended. I would be surprised to learn that laptimes are no longer provided.
That said, the school has changed since I was a student. Perhaps the new teaching philosophy has moved the focus away from laptimes at the lower level schools to focus on learning riding techniques and avoid folks seeking a personal best lap time as it could be a distraction to the learning process. I could certainly understand the thinking behind not providing them to discourage a competitive attitude while learning.
In any case, the time and attention you spend on your personal timing system will, by definition, be a distraction and leave you at less than 100% to learn about your riding. IMHO the school is the place to learn about your riding, not your new laptimer system.
Look, I have talked to a lot of people that have said this school is wonderful that is one of the main reasons that we chose to attend it. I am sorry if me posting on here, valid questions and opinions, has ruffled anyones feathers.My feathers are just fine and are my responsibility in any case. No need to apologize nor to defend your actions or opinions. I do not know the office girl and I am not "defending" her or the school. Honestly, I am only trying to help you.
Have a better one,
BH
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Thanks for the info and input guys.
Racer...I know what you are saying and believe me I am one of the nicest people in the world and very easy to get along w/. I like to be over prepared for everything and just want some answers to some quick easy questions. All I wanted for this girl to do yesterday was say, "give me a sec and I will find out the answer for you." Thats it! But then she flips the table and becomes rude to me. That is all I am going to say about it.
I will be there w/ bells on and looking forward to getting a ton of first hand knowledge that I know I need to make me better.
Thanks again!!
Personally bashing her on a public forum will not resolve the issue.
Best wishes,
BH
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Hey Lance,
Don't make it bad.
Take a sad day and make it better.
...
Chill. Someone will get back with you before Barber.
And if not...
My advice is to just go and show up early. If the track said that it is up to CSS, it would seem that the track is OK with it. I would simply roll up and expect to be accomodated.
There are times when a friendly smile and a shrug can carry you to the ends of the earth.
"Well, I dunno. I just came from really far away and thought it would be OK...gee, shucks, whadya think?"
"Aw shucks" goes way further than an attitude of self importance.
In twenty years of setting up early at racetracks, it has been the rare exception that I find a local person so uptight as to not be happy to be of a service to a friend. And a rare thing that I couldn't make a connection as a human being and make friends with anyone if I concentrated on doing that. It is rare that a friend won't do all they can to help you, eh?
Of course, if I fronted up with a face full of ME ME ME or NOW NOW NOW, I generally was disappointed in any event.
The one major exception to that rule being Daytona.
And even there I found a vendor who was willing to bring me in with them on vendor set up day to store my stuff in their garage. Of course, I made a huge concession to run a couple of his stickers. And that company ended up being one of my biggest long time sponsors for ten years and did me more favors and saved my life more times than I can count. For instance picking me up and loading all my stuff into their truck when my van died on the I95 just north of the Florida state line headed back to Daytona the following year. And his entire family are folks I am proud to call "friends" to this day.
Lemons to lemonade. It's all an adventure, mate. And every moment is 100% within your control to make good or bad.
There are times in life when having every little last t crossed and i dotted is a prioity. Other times, it is possible to be so worried and micro-managing as to create more problems than you solve by getting in your own way. Let it ride amte and trust it will turn out for the best.
The folks at the school are some of the coolest people I have met anywhere and I have been pretty much everywhere.
It'll be OK.
Some more unsolicited advice ...
If you think of your school tuition as your contribution to help keep such a wonderful experience as the school alive to exist for everyone ... instead of say your personal price tag to entitle you to being treated the way you want or demand, you will get much more out of your whole experience at the school and probably in the rest of life.
In any case, venting your frustration and dissatisfaction on their public forum after not getting instant results for minimum effort to satisfy YOUR personal requirements is way bad form, mate.
racer
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WOW! I had to get my tech manual out.
I just came back and read through that all ... holy ######. That is without doubt my longest post anywhere ever. And I was stone cold sober. Scary.
What I'm really afraid of is he's gonna read it and think, "Cool. So ... why do I have to blip the throttle?"
Groan.
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I finally found the original thread where Keith covers the technique, and it brings up more questions. I believe that I have the right hand action down, meaning I can adjust(or maintain pressure of) the brake lever any way that I want while blipping the throttle. But I guess that my busy little brain has to understand the whole point, the mechanics of, the importance of the throttle blip. I'm reading that it makes it easy on the tranny, gearbox, etc., and if that's the case, I'll do it just to save parts. But how is it making downshifting smooth? I'm just not seeing it while I ride. I can bang down the gears and it seems smooth enough to me. Am I not going fast enough or something to fully appreciate the technique? Or am I not doing it correctly and have nothing to compare it to?
Hey AJ,
I know just what you mean about understanding the mechanical process being helpful to understand the technique. I am exactly the same way.
I have found however, that it can be a case of TMI (too much information) to assimilate and digest the clutch and transmission all at once. So, I ususally do not start off with the mechanical overview as it seems that most folks eyes start to glaze over somewhere between the words "throw out bearing" and "synchro-mesh".
That said, I would like to add a few more ideas to 2big's in my own words ... and I find it helps to start with the concept of upshifting which everyone seems to get straight off and then seems to have less difficulty turning the idea around for downshifting.
The critical point to be aware of is that the clutch separates the engine (motor) from the transmission.
I think everyone is familiar with the basic function of the engine ... to spin faster to create more power by increasing revolutions. Add gas, go faster. When the engine reaches the top of its rev range the tacho communicates this visually with the infamous "redline".
So what happens when you reach redline and are not satisfied with your velocity through space and time? Like the greedy little speed demon you must be if you are here, you want to go still faster!
Heh heh heh heh (insert maniacal laughter here)
So, we "shift gears", right?
OK, so, think of a multi-speed mountain bike.
The bicycle has an engine (namely you) which imparts energy to a crankshaft with pedals for our legs/feet (instead of con-rods and pistons).
And you, the engine, are "connected" to a manual transmission that is held together by a chain. Due to the nature of the chain/gear/derailer realtionship, a separate clutch is not needed to disconnect the engine on your mountain bike. Instead, a derailer feeds the chain off one sprocket onto the next without upsetting the smooth operation of the system. Technically, the entire chain/sprocket/derailing action might be considered an automatic-clutch transmission, but, for our purposes...let's just concentrate on the end result for now.
So, when you can't pedal any faster, when your tired sweaty body reaches "redline", you "shift gears"...right? (Same thing as a motorcycle or car or truck, etc.)
You reach down and move the shift lever which is connected by a cable to the derailer at the rear which pushes the chain onto a smaller sprocket.
VOILÁ!
Suddenly, You don't have to pedal as fast to maintain the same road speed! AND you can now pedal faster again to increase your velocity toward warp one!
The smaller circumference of the new smaller sprocket has less teeth and now the front pedal sprocket will turn less for each revolution of the rear wheel!
You can also think of it as the rear sprocket and wheel will go around more times for each turn of the front pedal sprocket.
Either way ... c'est fantastique!
Now, another terminology/concept connection ... more rear wheel turns equals higher road speed.
Seems like a "well, duh" moment, but, I just wanna be sure to cover all the bases.
OK, so ... what happens when you are pedaling in like 39th gear (I don't how many gears a mountain bike has these days, they just have more than the ten I had as a kid and seem to have more everytime I ride one)...
So, you're jamming along in 39th gear and a really big hill arises on the horizon (whoa dude, that's a really big hill!) and what happens?
You hit the bottom of the hill and your engine's rpm's start to fall and you start to go slower. It gets harder and harder to pedal. The pedal crank goes around slower and slower. And, eventually, your pedal rpm gets so slow that if you don't do something, you are gonna STOP.
Now THAT'S a four letter word for any greedy speed demon!
So, by inborn instinct, we speed demons go reaching for that lovely little lever, and, we (all together now) DOWNSHIFT!
The chain goes onto a bigger rear sprocket, the pedal rpm's go back up again, (and it gets easier to pedal (less torque required)) ... and little Willy speed demon is happy again.
OK...for anyone who is still here enjoying this little story and hasn't already skipped to the end to see whodunnit ...
The critical commonality between going up a big hill on your mountain bike and negotiating a turn on the road/racetrack is the part where you slow down.
Less "roadspeed". From warp speed to impulse.
Now by experience, we tend to discover that if we try to shift gears on our mountain bike while pedaling hard, the process can become something less than "smooth".
In the upshift, the chain grinds while coming off the teeth of the big sproket and kinda SNAPS onto the smaller sprocket with a big ... well ...SNAP. or perhaps a big KA-CHUNK!
In any case, it is sort of an ugly sound. Not very pleasing to one's ear and one generally gets the impression that it might even be doing some damage ... which it probably is.
If we are pedaling hard when we try to down shift, chances are we might not even be able to move the bloody gear shift lever because there is too much "lash" or tension at the chain/tooth interface. The chain is gripping so hard to the sproket that it won't lift or slide over.
Now, comes the critical point of crossover between the motorbike and the pedal bike.
On the pedal bike, we need to not push so hard on the pedal so as to *let off some of the pressure on the drivetrain* (or chain and sprokets) to allow a smoother shift.
Same deal on the motorbike.
Imagine the inside of the transmission as a front and rear sproket set like the mountain bike except the motorbike doesn't actually have a chain between the front (input shaft) transmission gear and the rear (output shaft) transmission gear.
The gears mesh together directly. No chain. It would be like having no chain between the front and rear sprockets on your mountainbike. Like the front and rear sprockets were right next to each other and connected teeth to teeth.
And on the motorbike, instead of the chain sliding off one gear and onto the next, the entire rear gear slides over and another takes its place. Like that whole gear set on your rear wheel just moved over to engage another gear to gear instead of the chain moving over. (No chain)
Far out, huh?
Now, just like the mountain bike if you are pedaling hard ... if you are on the gas, it is difficult to slide those gears over because there is too much tension or lash on the gear. It is sticking too hard to other gear.
Enter ... the CLUTCH!
MOO HAA HAA HAA HAAAAA (more maniacal laughter)
The clutch disconnects the engine from the transmission so you can move that lovely shift lever which is rotates a beautiful round shift drum which is connected to a cute little shift fork which rests in a circumferential groove beside the teeth in the new gear to slide that puppy over with no lash or pressure on the gear teeth ... equals smooth snickety-snick gear shift.
So...that is the general idea. In fifty words or less...
A bigger sprocket at the rear means the pedals (engine) will be spinning faster. More teeth per rear wheel revolution means more revolutions up front.
Using the clutch separates the engine and eliminates any drive forces on the gears. You need to spin the engine up (like you would be pedaling faster) so when you let out the clutch, there is no slipping or shock. Just smooth mating of the clutch plates fibre to steel.
Draw some pictures of two diferent size circles touching each other and imagine them spinning. The bigger circle spins slower than the little circle. Adding teeth makes it easier to calculate since you can count the teeth, but, you can simply measure the circlearound the circumference and do the same thing.
And now a break for some interesting bicycle tech...
On the mountain bike, when you downshift from like 39th gear to 35th gear, the derailer is spring mounted and essentially matching the CHAIN length to the new gear and roadspeed by releasing or taking up slack. Due to this action, you can basically match revs on the fly as you shift. The chain climbs onto the new gear and automatically gets longer to accomadate more teeth and essentially absorbs some of the difference in torque in doing so. As long as you aren't pedaling too hard. all you the rider know is that suddenly you are pedaling faster because that's the way it is.
Utterly ingenious. And, actually, I have to thank you for making me go through all this because I never actually realized that before. Damn! That is SO cool!
And some more advanced details of the sequential transmission on your motorbike ... this may be impossible to imagine without pictures, but, I'm on a roll...
When you move the gear shift lever, it rotates a drum with squiggly grooves in it. These grooves are like a "transmission program" for where the shift forks will move. The forks are like they sound. They are a fork with two tines and at the shaft end are held and ride back and forth on a rod near the drum. The fork end rides in circumferential groove on the active sliding gear. So the active gear is between the times of the fork.
Now, the active new gear(s) that you slide over to mesh with the new input gear are not actuallay connected or "splined" onto the shaft which they are riding on. In fact, they are 100% "freewheeling" and they only connect to the driven shaft by way of "dogs" on the gear face of the gear next door that is actually connected or splined onto the shaft. These "dogs" are like little tabs that fit into little slots on the next gear AND these freewheeling gears need to get spun up to speed as well to match the dogs and slots on the gear next door BEFORE the dogs engage. This is accomplished with a little disk with little bumps like a golf ball on it that rides outboard of each gear and touches before the little boy dogs tabs can catch the little girl slots thereby mating the gears together. These little bumpy disks are called "synchro-mesh"...oooo aaahhh.
Because they ...."SYNCHONIZE" the "MESHING" of the gears.
We will now take a moment of silence to meditate on the miracle of the synchro-mesh. Please feel to worship or give thanks to the great creator of the synchro-mesh in whatever manner works best for you. Some folks prefer incense and candles while listening to new age music of the spheres. I prefer burning castor oil in a forged piston with the Matrix soundtrack. Whatever works best for you ...
I will share with you this mantra I learned from an old monk while studying at a Buddhist monastery in Borneo many years ago...
Oooooommmmmm. Oooooooommmmm. Oh mommy bring money home. Oh mommy bring money home. Oh mommy bring money home ...
OK ... we feel refreshed for the final leg of our spiritual journey down the rabbit hole of matching rev's tonight. Anyone who took the blue pill should log off now as there is no coming back.
Alrighty then ... God, I just love this stuff.
So, when you are moving that gear lever, the sliding gear must spin up to speed to connect to the gear that will actually connect it to the output shaft while meshing to the new input gear AND you must blip the engine to get the engine to match the new speed of the tranny that is spinning faster now because the gear set is a lower ratio. So, just like the mountain bike, there is a bigger gear on the output side now, so less reduction and you will be pedaling faster.
So, there is a whole 'nother level of things matching speed inside the transimission when you are shifting and blipping and hoping it doesn't blow up.
Mind blowing, eh?
We will discuss the mysteries of the manual clutch at our next gathering.
Peace, love and high octane baby!
racer
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hmmm- that is an idea. I could just sleep in my gear so I'm ready to go as soon as they roll up. But I don't want to seem too eager.
I'm going to have to take my ADD medication because I'm driving people nuts I'm so excited. We fly out tomorrow. Watch the AMA on Sunday. And then I get to go learn for two days.
You'd have to be dead to not be excited.
I envy you.
Mid Ohio is the first road race course I ever saw and I spent many days of my younger years attending the AMA National there and staying on through to attend the Keith Code school. The traditional weekend falls on my birthday which was yesterday. (For awhile they moved the AMA weekend to mid-July and got rained on every single year and finally got smart and moved it back ... lol.)
Anyway, some of my best memories are there. I saw Wayne Rainey, Fred Merkel, Jimi Filice and Bubba Shobert race Superbikes head to head that first weekend in 1987. I was traveling two up on my GPz750 and camping under the stars with my best friend who has since passed. I saw Randy Renfrow skipping the rear wheel of his 250 in the dirt as he slid sideways on to the front straight kicking up little puffs of dirt on each lap and I was instantly hooked and knew I had to go racing. I can still smell the castor oil and race gas wafting from the 250's that day.
I also really envy you for getting to ride on the NEW PAVEMENT WITHOUT POLYURETHANE APEX PATCHES. That was my dream for many years. Oh well, maybe I'll be able to make it over on Monday or Tuesday to say "Hi".
Have fun, dude. Mid Ohio is a fun fun fun track. It's like racing on a golf course. Just beautiful.
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When does first bell ring? I don't want to be late and have to get a tardy slip.
I'm getting ready to head to Ohio tomorrow and would like to know what time I need to be at the track Monday morning.
I'm planning on being there by 7:00am
I always rolled out my sleeping bag under my bike blocking the front gate at Mid Ohio so Keith would have to wake me up to get in.
That way I could never be late.
No, really!
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Significant edits to previous post.
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This should clear things up a bit. I'll test it out and let you know how it goes. Thanks.
You do not want to get distracted or caught up looking at the tacho while riding. That said ...
I don't have a speed in gear chart handy, but, off the top of my head, the amount of rev's you'll want to blip might be like 3500-4000 rpm between 1st and 2nd gear and maybe as little as 500 rpm between 5th and 6th gear depending on the bike. And that difference will be progressive, like each gear shift will need a bit more blip as you go down through the gears. The lower the gear change, the bigger the ratio change, the bigger the blip. (If you can really call a blip 'big' ... lol.)
Try blipping the throttle while sitting curbside to get a feel for it. And remember that when you are off idle the blip will happen faster and easier. So try blipping from different points in the rev range, too.
It should not take a big handful of throttle to "blip" an inline four sportbike. It shouldn't take more than the slightest twist of your wrist on the throttle to get just the right amount of 'blip' with the clutch in. Small moves. Start small and add a little more if the clutch is still slipping when you let it out.
You shouldn't need to really WHACK it. Just a little blip'll do ya to bring the rev's up just enough to match rev's without going too far. Blipping too hard might be what is giving you "clacking" noises inside the tranny because it is resisting the gear change.
Also, if you downshift before you are going slow enough for the next lower gear, you can lock up the rear and make it hop. So be sure to wait long enough until the roadspeed and rev's are down low enough before blipping and downshifting. Like you don't want to be trying to catch 1st gear at 50 mph ... bad deal.
I hope that gives you a bit more than I had time for yesterday.
Good luck.
Be safe.
. I gotta lay off the grape juice.
Sideways Pitch Of Rear Wheel.... Sudden Tightening Of Line
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
My best guess:
Although they do offer more grip and are better at absorbing bumps, I find radials give much less feedback and a leave me with a sense of being "out of contact" with what the tire is doing while the radial carcass *deforms and flexes* during steering changes before the tires "settle in" to a corner. In fact, I found the switch from bias ply to radials a bit unnerving until I learned to "trust" what the tires were going to do as I couldn't really "feel" them like I could a bias ply anymore. For a while, I didn't know if I was falling or not until I had made the corner...lol.
You said that changing tire pressures didn't alter the feeling ... this also seems to fit the general profile of radial carcass flex. However, the carcass flex of a tire like the D208 definitely increases at lower pressures. I'm not familiar with the new Qualifier. The last one I had on a street bike was bias ply...lol.
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I seriously doubt you are experiencing much frame flex. That phenomenon was generally associated with very powerful engines in weak frames. And neither of those conditions are associated with the EX500. So, unless there is a broken weld joint somewhere, I wouldn't worry about that. That said, have you inspected all of the frame's weld joints?
One potential trouble spot could be the rear arm and link bearings. The bike is six plus years old, have you ever checked for play in the rear arm bearings or shock link bearings? These need to be serviced with grease to keep them tight. Steering head bearings, too.
Why are you running 20 wt fork oil?
Using heavy fork oil is not a substitute for proper spring rates. I would consider a new, perhaps heavier (aftermarket), fork spring rather than running heavy fork oil if you are having front end issues. I don't know what the recommended fork oil is for the EX500 (probably 10wt?), but, maybe try going with a 15wt oil for more damping rather than the 20wt which is *pretty* heavy fork oil, IMO, and could degrade the proper functioning of the fork altogether, as well as the damping system. You might also consider running a bit more oil outright to reduce the compressible air space in the fork in lieu of a new spring. I would certainly go that route before running 20wt oil, but, that's me.
What makes you say the rear shock is past its prime? Simple age or mileage? Or something more significant?
Anyway, if I had to offer another guess, if it isn't simply a matter of radial carcass flex or a busted frame or loose arm/link bearings or some combination of all of the above ... it might simply be an unbalanced suspension response due to a worn out rear shock and heavy fork oil causing a "sinking" feeling in your rear end. Erm...in the bike's rear end that is.
Or perhaps a bad shock combined with the mis-matched rear tire (size AND profile!) causing a sudden change in the suspension and/or geometry during steering/throttle inputs that is altering where the contact patch is located on the rear tire (like at a steeper point of the profile) due to the shock compressing more than the fork during whatever inputs you are making?
(That one feels like a stretch.)
However, sometimes a different size tire is enough all by itself to create weird handling or traction, add a different profile and you double your odds of having weird stuff go on. When you inspect the tires, do you notice a difference between how much of each tire is being used? Is one "chicken stripe" wider than the other? Is one carcass maybe stiffer than another?
At the end of the day, at 200 lbs, you are near the upper limit of the standard suspension rates for an EX500 anyway, and that is if the components are fresh and in good condition. Depending on how much mileage is on the bike, you might want to replace the fork springs and/or rear shock anyway. I know that probably sounds about as likely as buying a new bike to you right now, but; fork springs should be fairly cheap. Progressive's probably run about $50 new for an EX500. Make sure you specify your weight and what sort of riding you do, ie. racing or street. (Fast street is still street.) Sometimes a good place to scrounge a "new" stock shock and fork springs is a low miles 'wrecker' machine at the local boneyard. That shouldn't run more than $200 for the shock with spring. But make sure the machine is low miles and there is no damage to the shock.
In the meantime, you might try cranking up the rear compression damping (if you can) to try to compensate for or "match" the heavy fork oil up front to see if that helps with any "rear end sinkage", but; that would not be a real long term solution (especially if the shock is bad or has no compression damping adjuster, in which case it won't do anything). You might also try cranking the spring a tad to run a bit less sag in the rear, but....again, this is taking you further and further from the real solution and will, at the end of the day, be trading off essential suspension characteristics to work around something that *may or may not be a real problem*.
Cheers,
r