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I Keep Washing My Front End


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using surf board grips on my tank i was able to put all of my weight on my toes and holding the tank with my knee leaving very minimal pressure on the bars (ala lean bike). this has worked very well for me in controlling the bike, but occasionally i still wash the front end. i have caught it a few times but most of the time it leads to me low siding. i had my suspension tuned for my weight and i am running qualifiers.

 

when i turn my weight is already shifted (i do this before braking) i am "calf raising" the outside leg gripping with my knee, pressing against the bar until i reach my lean angle then relax and let the wheel rebound (i seem to be crashing before the wheel rebounds) and pressing down on the inside peg (which seems to help me turn a lot faster).

 

on a good corner i can drop the bike ('06 ninja 636) into the turn and when i am mid corner i can take my hand off of the bar and control the throttle with only a few fingers. i usually feel so stable that is why it is frustrating when i seem to low side out of now where.

i am also low siding at different lean angles from peg draggers to chicken strippers, but it is always before the tire rebounds after turn in.

 

any ideas???

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Are you trailbraking?

 

What do you mean, "before the wheel rebounds?" Why would the wheel be rebounding? Do you mean before the radial tire "sets"?

 

Weighting one peg as opposed to another does essentially nothing. I wonder what else you might be doing when weighting the inside peg.

 

If you are "locked on" with your outside leg before you turn in and using that for your pivot point, isn't your weight there? Or at least half of it? I mean, how do you weight the inside peg if you are really locked on with the outside leg?

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by "rebounding" i meant when the tire falls back towards the turn after countersteering to get the bike leaned over. i have had a few snappy standups under heavy TB (usually under "oh sh**" circumstances), but i havent tuck it yet because of it. my weight is split between my outside butt cheek, outside knee (against the tank) and my inside foot. my outer leg is really only "calf raising" against the tank and foot peg but holds my body up.

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by "rebounding" i meant when the tire falls back towards the turn after countersteering to get the bike leaned over. i have had a few snappy standups under heavy TB (usually under "oh sh**" circumstances), but i havent tuck it yet because of it. my weight is split between my outside butt cheek, outside knee (against the tank) and my inside foot. my outer leg is really only "calf raising" against the tank and foot peg but holds my body up.

 

You mentioned you feel the tire rebound back. Yes, the tire does go out of track for a moment, but with a properly executed quick turn you shouldnt feel the tire rebound. You mention only applying pressure to the bars to get the bike to lean over then let OFF. That should be a perfect quick turn. What are you doing with your opposite hand?

 

If your getting a "rebound" or bobble as you reach the desired lean angle, your forcing the bike to stop leaning by either pushing pulling on the bars. IE push / pull to countersteer and arresting the movement as it nears the proper lean angle. all you need is apply pressure, lean, stop applying pressure to stop leaning.

 

And Racer is correct about weighting the pegs to turn in. Does nothing to acutually TURN the bike in. If fact check out the last GP. Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa, and Edwards were all taking their inside foot off the peg while turning in on particular corners.

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Weighting one peg as opposed to another does essentially nothing.

I would want to disagree just a tiny small bit with the statement as set forth. Understandably a dirt bike is lighter than a Supersport and so reacts more to body weight inputs, however the following principle still applies to at least some degree, I believe. Take a dirt bike and a steep downhill switchback that creates a severe off camber turn, make it a muddy turn without ruts and berms to set the tire against. Try and slide around that turn (without a foot dab) with the inside peg weighted. Secondly try and slide around that corner VERY heavily weighting the outside peg. The only way you have a prayer of succeeding is with the outside peg weighted. There is some level of increased stability (beyond the body mechanics of locking into the bike) that can be had through weight on the outside peg. The inside peg weighting can make the bike slide out a bit more easily. I've not thought through why, but it's been my experience. I personally I think it crosses over some from the dirt, and prefer to have some weight in the toe raised outside foot as opposed to the a lot of weight on the inside peg. At the least it's great over a rough patch in pavement, helps with lock in, helps with lack of body disruption, helps with countersteering too. Again that's just me and I've been known to be wrong, I just think I have a point with this one.

 

As to the question, Is the answer "yes" to "are you trail braking at the time?"

 

I'm only guessing but since this doesn't happen every time and you have some corners you state as being good ones, and you state it happens at variable lean angles. That sounds like you are doing something different when the front lets go, and you are doing something yourself to cause it to let go. You might need to identify what that is. Are you on the brake, what is up with the throttle, what are you doing with your hands, what is your exact upper body position (front, back, and sideways), is something different about the way you are locking into the bike, is it only right or only left turns etc. etc. If you're not on the brake (because if you are that's probably the answer right there), most likely you are going to need a smart knowledgeable coach to check you out and see if the problem can be spotted.

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Weighting one peg as opposed to another does essentially nothing.

I would want to disagree just a tiny small bit with the statement as set forth. Understandably a dirt bike is lighter than a Supersport and so reacts more to body weight inputs, however the following principle still applies to at least some degree, I believe.

 

Street bike wheels are comparatively heavy and create significant gyroscopic forces at speed which stabilize the machine such that weighting one footpeg over another is essentially meaningless.

 

Not to mention the relatively low speed and near zero gyro forces created while negotiating your hypothetically steep and slippery switchback goat path.

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Weighting one peg as opposed to another does essentially nothing.

I would want to disagree just a tiny small bit with the statement as set forth. Understandably a dirt bike is lighter than a Supersport and so reacts more to body weight inputs, however the following principle still applies to at least some degree, I believe.

 

Street bike wheels are comparatively heavy and create significant gyroscopic forces at speed which stabilize the machine such that weighting one footpeg over another is essentially meaningless.

 

Not to mention the relatively low speed and near zero gyro forces created while negotiating your hypothetically steep and slippery switchback goat path.

 

Interesting point, and I'll play a little again the next time I'm out, probably tomorrow. It's been a long time since I've messed around with footpeg pressures odd to my normal thing. I'll reserve opinionated comment until I play with it again. My memory says there still are differences to be found, could be wrong though. If I am wrong, there's no harm in my weighting the outside peg more anyway then. :-)

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I had a similar problem a few years ago. I thought there was something wrong with the front end of my bike. I would get the feeling that the front was sliding at every turn in. I knew it wasn't, and it sounds similar to your "rebounding".

 

The result of this was a slight delay in getting back on the throttle. Then the front actually did start pushing. I was basically out of control for way to long getting into a turn.

 

I learned that I was sitting on the bike wrong. I found the solution was to not "try" to have the "right" postion on the bike, but to set my position based on the turn and use my upper body to adjust before turn in. (I mean, seriously, you can only shift your lower body over so far before you become unstable.)

 

It took someone looking at me ride and asking me if I knew I was moving/sitting oddly on the bike. I basically followed him and mimiced what he did.

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Street bike wheels are comparatively heavy and create significant gyroscopic forces at speed which stabilize the machine such that weighting one footpeg over another is essentially meaningless.

 

Not to mention the relatively low speed and near zero gyro forces created while negotiating your hypothetically steep and slippery switchback goat path.

 

Interesting point, and I'll play a little again the next time I'm out, probably tomorrow. It's been a long time since I've messed around with footpeg pressures odd to my normal thing. I'll reserve opinionated comment until I play with it again. My memory says there still are differences to be found, could be wrong though. If I am wrong, there's no harm in my weighting the outside peg more anyway then. :-)

 

Where are you holding on when you weight the inside peg? Are you "locked on" with outer leg?

 

Is it possible that your body position (hence CoG) changes and could have some effect when weighting the inside peg? Or inadvertent handlebar inputs might be occuring?

 

I haven't played with this much on or off the track and I have heard other road racers say that weighting the inside peg helps them to initiate a slide or weighting the outside peg helps them control a slide, but, Keith claims that weighting a peg in and of itself effectively does nothing.

 

Now, I don't know that it holds true for dirtbikes as much, especially at low speeds, but, maybe you could think about these questions while riding tomorrow?

 

Have fun!

 

r

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Street bike wheels are comparatively heavy and create significant gyroscopic forces at speed which stabilize the machine such that weighting one footpeg over another is essentially meaningless.

 

Not to mention the relatively low speed and near zero gyro forces created while negotiating your hypothetically steep and slippery switchback goat path.

 

Interesting point, and I'll play a little again the next time I'm out, probably tomorrow. It's been a long time since I've messed around with footpeg pressures odd to my normal thing. I'll reserve opinionated comment until I play with it again. My memory says there still are differences to be found, could be wrong though. If I am wrong, there's no harm in my weighting the outside peg more anyway then. :-)

 

 

Where are you holding on when you weight the inside peg? Are you "locked on" with outer leg?

 

Is it possible that your body position (hence CoG) changes and could have some effect when weighting the inside peg? Or inadvertent handlebar inputs might be occuring?

 

I haven't played with this much on or off the track and I have heard other road racers say that weighting the inside peg helps them to initiate a slide or weighting the outside peg helps them control a slide, but, Keith claims that weighting a peg in and of itself effectively does nothing.

 

Now, I don't know that it holds true for dirtbikes as much, especially at low speeds, but, maybe you could think about these questions while riding tomorrow?

 

Have fun!

 

r

 

Father's Day weekend, so the only riding I got in was two up with the Mrs. so no oddball peg playing got done, I'll do it during the week.

 

I haven't played with this much on or off the track and I have heard other road racers say that weighting the inside peg helps them to initiate a slide or weighting the outside peg helps them control a slide

 

This is my experience with it. and what I was thinking of when I said I disagreed just a little bit with the statement peg weighting does nothing (it may do nothing for turning, but I'm not talking about turning the bike with it). It may not steer, but weighting still does something. Again I'll reserve standing by that hard and fast until after a bit of play time just to double check a feeble old memory and make sure there's no question about it in my mind, given respectable opinion to the contrary.

 

I've found in the past that inside peg weighting will get the bike to break traction for a slide sooner, outside peg weighting tends to stabilize things more and aid a small bit in maximizing traction.

 

I don't try and steer with the pegs, that's what countersteering is for, so I don't find myself trying to weight the inside peg for anything in everyday circumstances (that's the original guy who posted who does that and I'm thinking it can't help his sliding situation). However I DO habitually outside leg toe raise, outside knee into the tank, weight the outside peg, and get weight off my hands so I have bar/grip/front-end feel, and no unwanted inputs. Anytime I need stability for anything with the bike the outside peg gets more weight, including in a slide. Just did this in the rain a few days ago with a throttle on rear wheel slide.

 

Again, I'll experiment during the week to see if I "can" agree with "peg weight does nothing," but I'm thinking you need to get pretty near triple digits (or be on a super duper porker bike) before I would end up agreeing with that, given what I remember of my old time experiments. Also, I'm quite certain, with a dirt bike at speeds up to 70-80mph there is no question whatever that it does a great deal to help both bike and slide stability to have the outside peg weighted. It's just a fact of experience riding them.

 

That would be one reason I'd personally avoid inside peg weighting entering a turn. I mean inside peg weighting on entry, it's OK, but a lot of leg work for no helpful return that I could find in the past (and even a negative return to my mind with easier sliding for no helpful reason). Whereas I can definitely tell you a 50mph rough patch of pavement on either of my road bikes mid turn, especially downhill, the bike AND your body will stabilize more through there with outside peg weighting. That's also so for sliding situations to my mind (though I'll check again).

 

Again, I'll not stand fast until I experiment with current riding as I've been doing it my way for some years now without playing with alternates. Also again, I'm NOT talking about steering the bike, but how your body locks in, and how the machine and traction responds to sliding and rough areas with a bias to outside peg weighting. I lock in with some outside peg weighting before I ever initiate turn in. Then I maintain it to at least some degree (depending upon need) throughout the turn. I always have more weight on the outside peg than inside peg through a turn no matter my body position.

 

It never hurts to "real world check out" and confirm or deny new input from others who know their stuff though. :-) I'll get to play sometime during the coming week.

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