Subconscious Mixed Signals

[Jaybird180]

I've been a magazine reader longer than a rider. I'm especially a fan of the Sport Rider Rider Skills Series. I've realized that not everyone subscribes to Mr. Codes' ideologies about riding and that one may get ideas about riding that don't mix well with the way Keith teaches riding. In particular some authors describe a cornering technique that I would describe as tip in on brakes, get off brakes, coast until apex and then get on the gas at the exit. I noticed it in particular on pp 104 of the September 08 issue.

 

I'm not debating the merits/ demerits of trail braking (there's a long thread for that). I'm only wondering how many other places where there's riding advice given that doesn't mix well.

[Leftlaner]

CSS teaches how to use the full cornering potential in the bike/rider. The articles you refer to are all great (I've read just about all of the Rider Skills articles), but they tend to be more suitable for the average STREET rider, and not trackday racers like us.. On the track, it is acceptable to grind the knees agains the tarmac, both buttocks off the seat, rear wheel squerming, and more than 100mph on the clock. You wouldn't go at those speeds on a public road, hence you wouldn't (always) be applying "racing techniques" on the streets.. The cornering technique you mentioned seems more passive than what CSS teaches. Which is OK at slower speeds. On the street you aren't (or shouldn't be) anywhere near the traction limitations, and coasting through the first part of the corner would not cause the rear end to spin out..

 

Over the years, I've read several articles that contradict the CSS way of doing things (such as "how to steer the bike by weighing the pegs")..

Remember how TOTW2 begins? You need to carefully chose who you listen to. Only take advice from people you trust in - when it comes to cornering technique, your life depends on it!

 

I chose to trust Keith Code. This guy has INTEGRITY, and over the years he has proven that his technique WORKS.

He's been around for a while and he seems to know quite a bit about the interaction between a man and his machine..

 

'nuff said..

[Jaybird180]

Thanks for your well written reply Leftlaner. I agree with you about choosing whom to listen (and I'll have to go back to find out what you mean in TOTW2). The technique that I described is purported to be a track technique.

 

I recall Keith in my DVD (TOTW) saying that 'it doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same'. I have found agreement with that by my own experience. I've also found, like you that some things (like knee dragging) don't work well on the street.

[mike isbill]

I think what it boils down to is that these techniques FEEL safe and effective. Corners are scary. Straight line speed is one thing, but add a corner to it and the fear goes through the roof. Well, if speed is the monster, then the brakes (and decelerating by being off the gas) are our salvation right? Fortunately someone has taken the time and effort to show that this really is not the case. I must admit I was a bit of doubter when I first heard of the school as well, but there really is no arguing with logic and data. It just works, it's got data to back it up, and it's not based on someone's feeling.

 

Some of the techniques I've read about in magazines (I was a big fan of that particular column as well) seem to be either racing technique mis-applied to the average street rider, or as I opined above, based on someone's feeling on the subject. I agree with LeftLaner that it's all about who you choose to listen to.

[acebobby]

Thanks for your well written reply Leftlaner. I agree with you about choosing whom to listen (and I'll have to go back to find out what you mean in TOTW2). The technique that I described is purported to be a track technique.

 

I recall Keith in my DVD (TOTW) saying that 'it doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same'. I have found agreement with that by my own experience. I've also found, like you that some things (like knee dragging) don't work well on the street.

 

 

This style of riding you mentioned (coasting to the apex) is taught by alot of schools and race instructors world wide, I used to do this, and I never ever felt in good control of the bike until I got to the apex! I also found it difficult to chose a turn in speed as when you turn in the speed scrubs of very quickly and you just want to get on the gas!

Since beginning educating myself in Keith Codes methods I have realised a few things about the coasting to the apex method- 1st of all you will reach the bikes limits very quickly, ground clearance wise as the suspension wont be working properly in the first half of the turn! (probably an easy way to get your knee down also since the bike is lower) this alone may appeal to potential students! 2nd you will be turning the bike in earlier to carry some corner speed = even more lean angle, can you imagine what it would feel like to quick turn your bike then have no throttle, getting slowed by the cornering forces and your engine braking, rolling it to the apex and just when you have all the weight over the front, and hardly anything over the rear you apply the gas, If you apply the gas gently you will be fast in slow out, if you apply it a bit roughly you will be fast in dont come out! The reason you will be fast in is because you will need to significantly increase your entry speed to compensate for engine braking and cornering forces as you coast to the apex!

Learning and practicing the throttle control rule for me has made me and my bike so much better, faster and definately safer!

[Cobie Fair]

ACE--well for sure going to only get agreement here! I'd way prefer the rear to slide than the front, by getting back on the throttle early, rather than the coast and wait scenario

 

C

[Jaybird180]

I realized after re-reading this thread that Mr. Code talks about this bad advice becoming ingrained into M/C culture and not challenged. TOTW2 talks about this in the opening of the book. I read that part really carefully. It's amazing how much junk is out there that sounds credible.