chopperbill Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Although I have over 35 years on 2 wheels, and have raced off road, I'm new to road racing. I've taken level 1 & 2. My question is; what is this pre-braking I hear Rossi talk about? I understand Spencer did it also. What is the science behind squeezing the brake lightly for a second or so before full on braking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asphaltscraper Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Although I have over 35 years on 2 wheels, and have raced off road, I'm new to road racing. I've taken level 1 & 2. My question is; what is this pre-braking I hear Rossi talk about? I understand Spencer did it also. What is the science behind squeezing the brake lightly for a second or so before full on braking? I'm going to make an uneducated guess on this one that it distributes the weight a little more gradually than overloading the front end all at once? Maybe also helps to avoid locking the front? Now I expect the experts will come on and tell me I'm wrong....haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Yes, the two-stage "pre-braking" technique transfers weight to the front tire so you reduce the chance of locking it up when you get into the brakes full force. Even just gradually getting into them is better than "snatching" a handful of brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopperbill Posted November 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Hmm.... maybe I'm just naturaly pre-braking then, because I've never felt like I was locking up the front wheel. thanks for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Hmm.... maybe I'm just naturaly pre-braking then, because I've never felt like I was locking up the front wheel. thanks for the help. If you have never locked the front brake, it would be a good idea to purposely do so in a controlled environment to experience what it feels like when it happens and learn what to do to handle it in an emergency. In fact, the school has a special braking rig bike and standard drill just for this purpose where students learn to gradually ease out of the brake lever to smoothly re-gain traction and allow the wheel to rotate again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpez Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Hmm.... maybe I'm just naturaly pre-braking then, because I've never felt like I was locking up the front wheel. thanks for the help. If you have never locked the front brake, it would be a good idea to purposely do so in a controlled environment to experience what it feels like when it happens and learn what to do to handle it in an emergency. In fact, the school has a special braking rig bike and standard drill just for this purpose where students learn to gradually ease out of the brake lever to smoothly re-gain traction and allow the wheel to rotate again. Yea, I ugraded my brakes and lines a few weeks ago. Discovered first hand what it's like to lock up the front and do a stoppie....LOL Racer is right. You need to experience it in a controlled environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopperbill Posted November 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 OK, What is a controlled enviroment? I took level 1 & 2, I don't remember a stopping bike. My bike has radial mounted Brembo brakes,( Ducati 749R) and comes to a stop very quickly. Seems like when I'm on the brakes hard after a long straight it is all I can do to keep from sliding right over the fairng.... ha ha..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 I would define a controlled environment as being closed to through-traffic. Preferably a wide open area with a clean surface, free from unexpected vehicular or pedestrian traffic, ie. the outlying region of a mall parking lot, furthest from the store front, free of greasy spots left from leaking motors of parked vehicles. "Stop bike", eh... it's the outrigger bike that they utilize for a couple of different drills. They might call it the "slide bike" or something. So, did you do the drill where you practice bringing the front wheel to the point of locking and then release the brake lever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopperbill Posted November 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 The slide bike broke down right before it was my turn to ride it.....as for the controlled enviro, my Ducati is not street legal, I don't think people would like me practicing in the race track parking lot, (or worse on the track). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 The slide bike broke down right before it was my turn to ride it.....as for the controlled enviro, my Ducati is not street legal, I don't think people would like me practicing in the race track parking lot, (or worse on the track). I suppose you could ask somebody for permission. But, I can't imagine why anyone would mind you practicing in the race track parking lot or a clear paddock area. Or any parking lot for that matter. And, if you are transporting the bike to the track, you can transport it to a more convenient parking lot anywhere. In any case, you sound like a resourceful person. I'm confident you can find a safe place that fits the criteria. As for "going over the fairing"... I suggest grabbing the tank with your knees to keep your weight off the handlebars. The front wheel will also have less tendency to cock off to the side when it skids. (That's actually a standard riding technique for increasing control in any situation and reduces the risk of amplifying head shakes into tank slappers. ) It's also a good idea to be going fast enough to have some gyro effect from the rear wheel to help stabilize the bike. I understand that having the outriggers would probably help you to feel safer doing it, but, as long as you keep your weight off the bars and release the brake when you feel the skid, the bike should remain fairly stable. For what it's worth, I practice stoppies and slides on the race track all the time. I've never had any complaints... In addition to learning the limits of your braking system/traction, being comfortable with front wheel skids and knowing how to handle them is a huge benefit. I'm sure Cobie or one of the other instructors can offer more insight, but, you can also read more about this practice drill in Keith Code's book A Twist of the Wrist. If you don't have a copy, you can order one from the online store here: https://secure.echoalley.com/superbikeschool/store/ Good luck, racer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 "Stop bike", eh... it's the outrigger bike that they utilize for a couple of different drills. Racer it is actually a separate bike from the lean/slide bike. As Cobie said somewhere else on the Forum, it is used in their 2-day camps. The braking bike is a Ninja 650 with outriggers but I believe their range of motion is more limited. It is used in simulating panic or extremely hard braking where the goal is to lock up the front. When I used it I was startled by how much the front dove/rebounded/dove/rebounded...I got off the pegs to try and keep the bike verticle and Keith pointed out that my SR's almost wrecked my day and their bike...the outriggers did all the work but my feet off the pegs diminished the bike's stability.. I now practice progressive brake drills EVERY time I street ride after my tires are warm and my 6 is clear. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 I now practice progressive brake drills EVERY time I street ride after my tires are warm and my 6 is clear. Kevin I do that too! But the 2 stages of braking are ease it on then ease it off, in between the 2 stages is maximum braking which will differ for different situations, smoothness on the brake lever is key as if you experience a front wheel lock up you do not have to completely release the brake to regain control! Easing the brake out is just as important as easing it on and not grabbing a handfull of lever! On an interesting note a front wheel lock up can be controled by counter-counter steering if there is such a thing i.e. if you push right hand bar while the front wheel is locked the bike wil go left and vice versa but only while its locked, the rules return to normal as soon as the wheel begins to spin! So say if you brake deep into a right hander and lock the front, by putting a little pressure on the inside bar the bike will try to stand up only untill the wheel begins to spin again. I have overthought this technique and its messing with my head but I heard a pro racer talking about saving a crash with his knee and using this to his advantage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopperbill Posted November 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 all good advise guys, thanks. I put some of those knee grip pads on my bike prior to my last track day and tried to grip the tank with my knees during hard stops. It helped a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 I now practice progressive brake drills EVERY time I street ride after my tires are warm and my 6 is clear. Kevin I do that too! But the 2 stages of braking are ease it on then ease it off, in between the 2 stages is maximum braking which will differ for different situations, smoothness on the brake lever is key as if you experience a front wheel lock up you do not have to completely release the brake to regain control! Easing the brake out is just as important as easing it on and not grabbing a handfull of lever! On an interesting note a front wheel lock up can be controled by counter-counter steering if there is such a thing i.e. if you push right hand bar while the front wheel is locked the bike wil go left and vice versa but only while its locked, the rules return to normal as soon as the wheel begins to spin! So say if you brake deep into a right hander and lock the front, by putting a little pressure on the inside bar the bike will try to stand up only untill the wheel begins to spin again. I have overthought this technique and its messing with my head but I heard a pro racer talking about saving a crash with his knee and using this to his advantage! I think you got that a little confused. From riding dirt bikes, if the front starts sliding at high speeds a counter-steer will likely put you on your ass. You actually steer the bike. I have had to do this on pavement when I hit a false neutral going into a turn and the front started sliding. I didn't counter-steer, which would have just pushed the tire right out from under me - I steered the bike to gain traction until I slowed enough to regain traction. Then I could counter-steer again. It's a feel thing. If you haven't ridden dirt, you will most likely never learn what it is without crashing at high speeds repeatedly. You can't learn it on pavement without a whole lot of pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 I now practice progressive brake drills EVERY time I street ride after my tires are warm and my 6 is clear. Kevin I do that too! But the 2 stages of braking are ease it on then ease it off, in between the 2 stages is maximum braking which will differ for different situations, smoothness on the brake lever is key as if you experience a front wheel lock up you do not have to completely release the brake to regain control! Easing the brake out is just as important as easing it on and not grabbing a handfull of lever! On an interesting note a front wheel lock up can be controled by counter-counter steering if there is such a thing i.e. if you push right hand bar while the front wheel is locked the bike wil go left and vice versa but only while its locked, the rules return to normal as soon as the wheel begins to spin! So say if you brake deep into a right hander and lock the front, by putting a little pressure on the inside bar the bike will try to stand up only untill the wheel begins to spin again. I have overthought this technique and its messing with my head but I heard a pro racer talking about saving a crash with his knee and using this to his advantage! I think you got that a little confused. From riding dirt bikes, if the front starts sliding at high speeds a counter-steer will likely put you on your ass. You actually steer the bike. I have had to do this on pavement when I hit a false neutral going into a turn and the front started sliding. I didn't counter-steer, which would have just pushed the tire right out from under me - I steered the bike to gain traction until I slowed enough to regain traction. Then I could counter-steer again. It's a feel thing. If you haven't ridden dirt, you will most likely never learn what it is without crashing at high speeds repeatedly. You can't learn it on pavement without a whole lot of pain. Hi Thor, Acebobby is saying the same thing you are, ie. with the front wheel locked, the bike does not counter-steer. racer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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