Changing Down

[freedy]

just a quick question when i find my break marker down the straight and start changing down what revs should i be at when entering the corner or is there a rule i should follow so i can be smoother............??

[hubbard_28]

Where to be during cornering is my problem, but one thing I do is get into my braking and then downshift before cornering. To find my brake marker, when I'm taking my initial laps, I go by the cones, find solid RP's from there, then adjust accordingly.

[Bullet]

just a quick question when i find my break marker down the straight and start changing down what revs should i be at when entering the corner or is there a rule i should follow so i can be smoother............??

 

It very much depends on the bike you ride and your level of skill really. For example, a litre bike in line 4 makes massive power 10-12K, so you'd have to ask the question whether you'd want it to be there mid corner when you come back to the throttle, and most likely the answer to that quetsion is no. To little revs would also be a problem, say if you had it around 3K, that would also be a challenge, as bike's don't neccesarily drive that well really from then.

 

You need to decide for yourself, based on bike, and ensuring the bike can drive smoothly and cleanly when you get back to the throttle, not too much, not too little. Essentially the golidilocks amount of throttle is for you to find out.

 

Sorry couldn't be more specific, but hope that helps you make you think about it a little to deicide?

 

Bullet

(UK Riding coach)

[hubbard_28]

If you're on the clutch, I'm not sure being at a particular rev going into a corner would have any effect. When coming off the brakes you should be going into the corner with the clutch pulled in.

Remember suspension compression. When braking your front compresses. When turning your front compresses as it decelerates the bike. The trick is to find out how to come off the brakes and work into a corner so that you don't have brake, compression, release brake, expansion, corner, compression, accelerate, expansion. Going into a corner you shouldn't be on the gas.

Working it so that you're coming off the brakes, keeping compressed while going into a corner, cornering and keeping that compression, and skipping the expansion altogether between doesn't occur, or at least not much, takes some work. But if you have experience, even on street, this should be pretty simple to get the hang of because of your familiarity with clutch/gas.

Sorry, I read my initial post and realized it wasn't answering your question. Hopefully this is a little more clear.

[Jaybird180]

If you're on the clutch, I'm not sure being at a particular rev going into a corner would have any effect. When coming off the brakes you should be going into the corner with the clutch pulled in.

 

 

SAY WHAT?!?!?!???

 

 

 

To the Original Poster: the sole purpose of downshifting is to put you into the powerband as you begin your drive OFF the corner. Nothing else. If you're thinking of using it to modulate your speed, it will hinder your times, smoothness and may also be a safety issue.

 

.

[freedy]

yes jaybird thats what i thought so once im in the powerband im sorted ,what always felt safe for me was to get back on the gas a quickly as possible to stable the bike ,the last thing i would do is pull the clucth going into the corner correct me if im wrong but wouldnt put all the weight be on the front of the bike

[hubbard_28]

If you're on the clutch, I'm not sure being at a particular rev going into a corner would have any effect. When coming off the brakes you should be going into the corner with the clutch pulled in.

 

 

SAY WHAT?!?!?!???

 

 

 

To the Original Poster: the sole purpose of downshifting is to put you into the powerband as you begin your drive OFF the corner. Nothing else. If you're thinking of using it to modulate your speed, it will hinder your times, smoothness and may also be a safety issue.

 

.

Learning point for me, I guess. When I'm going in to a corner, I'm coming off the brake and don't have any power going to the rear. Did I explain it wrong, or am I incorrect? I start giving power to the tire when I'm in the corner. I'm only concerned about what gear I'm in for the release, not my RPM's.

I keep going back to our "maintenance throttle" discussion so many months ago when I read Freedys question.

[Jaybird180]

yes jaybird thats what i thought so once im in the powerband im sorted ,what always felt safe for me was to get back on the gas a quickly as possible to stable the bike ,the last thing i would do is pull the clucth going into the corner correct me if im wrong but wouldnt put all the weight be on the front of the bike

You have to do some forward thinking (perhaps the lap previous?) to find what gear you should be in for the turn that will yield the best drive off the corner. You should be in this gear when you are done with your braking and timed so that braking and shifting are done precisely at your selected Turn Point. IIRC, Kevin had done a detail of his progress in this area and described how he's now comfortable with his timing and matching his brake markers.

 

If you're on the clutch, I'm not sure being at a particular rev going into a corner would have any effect. When coming off the brakes you should be going into the corner with the clutch pulled in.

 

 

SAY WHAT?!?!?!???

 

 

 

To the Original Poster: the sole purpose of downshifting is to put you into the powerband as you begin your drive OFF the corner. Nothing else. If you're thinking of using it to modulate your speed, it will hinder your times, smoothness and may also be a safety issue.

 

.

Learning point for me, I guess. When I'm going in to a corner, I'm coming off the brake and don't have any power going to the rear. Did I explain it wrong, or am I incorrect? I start giving power to the tire when I'm in the corner. I'm only concerned about what gear I'm in for the release, not my RPM's.

I keep going back to our "maintenance throttle" discussion so many months ago when I read Freedys question.

I'd been stuck on the maintenance throttle thing for awhile also. I think it invites too much room for interpretation, especially in this context. When the clutch is pulled in, there is no power to the rear wheel (ie freewheeling). A free wheeling motorcycle is not stable as it is the transfer of power that creates the stability.

 

Nick Ieanatch is a proponent of Maintenance Throttle (MT) and the concept is easily confused with saying neutral throttle. I'm not sure if CSS's methodology is compatible conceptually. CSS uses neutral throttle for decreasing radius or off-cambered turns. To make things even more confusing, IIRC Kevin Schwantz uses off-throttle concepts.

[hubbard_28]

yes jaybird thats what i thought so once im in the powerband im sorted ,what always felt safe for me was to get back on the gas a quickly as possible to stable the bike ,the last thing i would do is pull the clucth going into the corner correct me if im wrong but wouldnt put all the weight be on the front of the bike

You have to do some forward thinking (perhaps the lap previous?) to find what gear you should be in for the turn that will yield the best drive off the corner. You should be in this gear when you are done with your braking and timed so that braking and shifting are done precisely at your selected Turn Point. IIRC, Kevin had done a detail of his progress in this area and described how he's now comfortable with his timing and matching his brake markers.

 

If you're on the clutch, I'm not sure being at a particular rev going into a corner would have any effect. When coming off the brakes you should be going into the corner with the clutch pulled in.

 

 

SAY WHAT?!?!?!???

 

 

 

To the Original Poster: the sole purpose of downshifting is to put you into the powerband as you begin your drive OFF the corner. Nothing else. If you're thinking of using it to modulate your speed, it will hinder your times, smoothness and may also be a safety issue.

 

.

Learning point for me, I guess. When I'm going in to a corner, I'm coming off the brake and don't have any power going to the rear. Did I explain it wrong, or am I incorrect? I start giving power to the tire when I'm in the corner. I'm only concerned about what gear I'm in for the release, not my RPM's.

I keep going back to our "maintenance throttle" discussion so many months ago when I read Freedys question.

I'd been stuck on the maintenance throttle thing for awhile also. I think it invites too much room for interpretation, especially in this context. When the clutch is pulled in, there is no power to the rear wheel (ie freewheeling). A free wheeling motorcycle is not stable as it is the transfer of power that creates the stability.

 

Nick Ieanatch is a proponent of Maintenance Throttle (MT) and the concept is easily confused with saying neutral throttle. I'm not sure if CSS's methodology is compatible conceptually. CSS uses neutral throttle for decreasing radius or off-cambered turns. To make things even more confusing, IIRC Kevin Schwantz uses off-throttle concepts.

I think you and I were of the pro maintenance throttle, but after we had that discussion with Cobie so involved, I paid attention, and learned that I don't use it. I'm coming off the brakes in most corners, and am not back on the throttle until I'm in the apex range. I'm teaching my wife the same thing, but it's real hard on her EX 650 because she doesn't have a slipper clutch, and her bike is harsh coming off the corner. Luckily she has enough torque that she can be up a gear and have some pull.

 

If Freedy is asking about how to know what gear to be in, what I do is find the gear that will put me in the lowest end of the powerband I can be in. It gets fairly easy to figure out after a few different tracks. The last one I did was spot on. I draw a map of the corners on the track, learned it from TOTW and it works GREAT, and include what gear I'm going to be in going in, and include how much to downshift. That way I can just know "up 3, down 2, down 1, up 3," whatever. There is a tricky track that I'm doing pretty well on, but I'm continuously working on gearing. I'm dying to try yet another setup, but know on a short straight I'm going to be hitting redline every time. It'll be redline, dip, so it won't be exactly feasible to shift at all.

If you are in a gear that is iffy, try it a gear up or dow. It can't hurt anything except your laptimes for a few laps or a session. You should be able to figure it out pretty quickly

And maybe I'm alone in this, perhaps an instructor could chime in, but being on the gas going into a corner is going to mess with your stability.

[Jaybird180]

I think you and I were of the pro maintenance throttle, but after we had that discussion with Cobie so involved, I paid attention, and learned that I don't use it. I'm coming off the brakes in most corners, and am not back on the throttle until I'm in the apex range. I'm teaching my wife the same thing, but it's real hard on her EX 650 because she doesn't have a slipper clutch, and her bike is harsh coming off the corner. Luckily she has enough torque that she can be up a gear and have some pull.

 

If Freedy is asking about how to know what gear to be in, what I do is find the gear that will put me in the lowest end of the powerband I can be in. It gets fairly easy to figure out after a few different tracks. The last one I did was spot on. I draw a map of the corners on the track, learned it from TOTW and it works GREAT, and include what gear I'm going to be in going in, and include how much to downshift. That way I can just know "up 3, down 2, down 1, up 3," whatever. There is a tricky track that I'm doing pretty well on, but I'm continuously working on gearing. I'm dying to try yet another setup, but know on a short straight I'm going to be hitting redline every time. It'll be redline, dip, so it won't be exactly feasible to shift at all.

If you are in a gear that is iffy, try it a gear up or dow. It can't hurt anything except your laptimes for a few laps or a session. You should be able to figure it out pretty quickly

And maybe I'm alone in this, perhaps an instructor could chime in, but being on the gas going into a corner is going to mess with your stability.

 

Yes, that's the way I remember it too, that we were of the minority opinion. I haven't totally abandoned it, but as a CSS student, the language doesn't work very well with the other drills they teach. One of my favorite is called "The Do Nothing Drill" (LOL). I think MT would get confusing on that one. You gotta choose your philosophy at some point. I figure I'd learn this way and maybe later after having a good foundation in CSS's methodology I'd take on other methods.

 

I think your explanation of being in the low end of the powerband is spot on. I also use the 2 down, 3 up technique also. What's tough for me that I learned up at CSS is a quirk of my bike in the off/on throttle transition. I'm working on smoothing it out, as it's made me a bit gun shy there.

 

I took a class a few years back with my trackday org and the coach taught me a technique of being on the gas on turn-in and it worked for me (but don't tell Cobie). I can see however how it could be a barrier as my speed improved. It did allow me to get consistent and get to a point where I was WOT just after apex. But I admit, it was a remedial technique.

 

With that said, DO NOT roll the gas during your counter-steer (really easy to do). I learned in the steering drill that I have a tendency to roll the gas a bit and if I don't correct it, could potentially bite me on a fast switchback.

[Hotfoot]

If you're on the clutch, I'm not sure being at a particular rev going into a corner would have any effect. When coming off the brakes you should be going into the corner with the clutch pulled in.

 

 

SAY WHAT?!?!?!???

 

 

 

To the Original Poster: the sole purpose of downshifting is to put you into the powerband as you begin your drive OFF the corner. Nothing else. If you're thinking of using it to modulate your speed, it will hinder your times, smoothness and may also be a safety issue.

 

.

Learning point for me, I guess. When I'm going in to a corner, I'm coming off the brake and don't have any power going to the rear. Did I explain it wrong, or am I incorrect? I start giving power to the tire when I'm in the corner. I'm only concerned about what gear I'm in for the release, not my RPM's.

I keep going back to our "maintenance throttle" discussion so many months ago when I read Freedys question.

 

When riding only on the street I got into the habit of pulling in the clutch and holding it in while braking, and coasting into turns. After taking CSS and starting to ride on the track, I broke that habit and I never enter a corner with the clutch pulled in. For one thing, there is no engine braking, so you are "freewheeling" into the corner, which gives a lot less feedback and makes you feel like you are going in too fast. Another issue is that it's a lot harder to steer the bike quickly and accurately when you are holding in the clutch. Lastly, if you enter the corner with the clutch in, where do you let it out? While you are leaned over? It seems like it would be very easy to make an error and I wouldn't want to lock up my back tire in the midst of a turn.

 

When I approach a corner now, I either downshift without using the clutch at all, or I use a VERY fast clutch action, and pull it in as little as possible to accomplish the downshift, but I am FOR SURE done with it before my turn point. If I hold the clutch too long, the RPMs drop a lot and I have to either blip it a lot (and I am terrible at it) or let it out REALLY slow to avoid locking up the rear tire.

 

Generally I do have the throttle all the way off at turn point, because it is easier to turn the bike - the front is loaded, so I get a quicker turn in. You can still get the bike turned without shutting the throttle completely off, but I think the ideal is to be coming out of the brakes right as you turn in, and you wouldn't be on the throttle AND on the brakes at the same time. The bike CAN feel more stable if you use maintenance throttle - but you are slowing down turn-in, which may feel safer but can also make you run wide.

 

One caveat here, I think some fast guys do use a slow controlled clutch release to get it sideways into a corner - but if that's the riding level you are talking about, I'll step out and you can direct the discussion to Stuman!

[hubbard_28]

I thought we were supposed to get back on the gas after we've made the turn. I brake before going into a corner, then clutch and downshift, turn, let out the clutch, and go. Now, I'm really bad at my entry speed, but the one thing that showed promise before the summer hit was that initiating my turn happened while I was releasing the brake. That makes when I got on the throttle in the turn easier because it was one motion for the front suspension. Braking compresses the forks, starting my turn keeps them compressed, and being off the brake and on the gas eased me up to the 40/60 ratio. I'm never on the gas when I start a turn now. It's a pretty big difference, and for my riding style, an improvement.