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# No Bs Machine Argument

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Hi,my name is Vagelis.Im from Greece and i have a question regarding the no Bs machine.

I think that having a bike that cannot steer does not prove that you cant turn without counter

steering,it proves that you cant turn at all!!!Even at 20mph where counter steering is not notice able(as you say).

So if you could make the handle bars turn only in one direction for example left and asked one of those people who believe that body steering is possible to make a left turn then you could prove that counter steering occurs.

What do you think??If someone tried to turn the handle bars to the left to make a left turn at speed he would end up going right.But at 20 mph he would be able to make a manouvre.

Thanks in andvance for your time.

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I think that having a bike that cannot steer does not prove that you cant turn without counter

steering,it proves that you cant turn at all!!!

You have missunderstood they way the NO-BS bike works. It steers just fine. It has a totaly normal set of handle bars that work just the same as they would on any normal bike.

There are also a second set of bars with a working throttle that are fixed to the frame and do not turn.

You can ride the bike with the normal bars and it works just like any other bike, it turns just fine. Then you can move your hands to the second set of bars and try to turn using body steering, the normal bars will still turn if you can make them

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Vagelis,

Who are you talking about when you make a statement and then say, "(you say)"?

Who said that?

Keith

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Hi Keith

Is counter steering noticeable below 20mph?

When i wrote as you say i meant you Keith.Correct me if im wrong.

In twist 2 in page 55 you explain countersteering but you dont say anything about speed.

In this site you say that counter steering happens even at the speed of 20 mph.

What happens below 20 mph?Is the gyroscopic effect that powerful at less than 20mph?Is the produced force that big to make the bike turn the opposite way?

So what i was trying to say in my post is this:

Lets say you have a bike that can only steer left.You can push the right bar but you cant pull it.

At 20mph and above if you pull the left bar and push the right bar you will end up going right.

At less than 20mph, lets say 10mph, i think that it will be easy to direct the bike to the left because the opposing forces due to gyro are not big enough to tilt the wheel to the other direction.

If the above is true then i think that this way helps people understand countersteering better and prove that it happens.It helps you understand that at higher speed you can only turn right with a bike that steers only to the left.It helps you see that you have to guide in an opposing manner!

I havent attented your school here in greece, i hope that ill be able to soon.

Sorry for my english i didnt mean to alarm you.

I would also like to ask you if you can recomend a good book about vanishing points and slip angles.I dont know if these are mentioned in the soft sience cause i havent read that one yet.

Thanks again for your time.I hope it makes sense!!!

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The less speed you have the less noticable the countersteering comes, to the point where steering is neutral (20mph is quite correct to most of the bikes/wheels configuration).

And you don't want to teach students with the bike that can turn only to left. Not only its technically quite a challenge to build, but to teach something that simple - once its understood, its incredibily simple, like all ingenious things - with something very complicated, does not make sense. And, if you can't really turn, most will crash. Not a good way to memorize things (Bang! OK, i got the countersteering now, what else you have? )

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I didnt have students in mind.I ve read in this site that there are alot of experienced riders that believe they can turn the no bs machine.Like people who have riding schools of their own and want to prove that Keith is wrong.

Also when the bike is leant into a corner the front wheel is looking to the direction the bike is going.With the no bs machine that cant happen even if you were able somehow to get it leaned over.

Of course that might be dangerous.To be able to lean the bike with the front wheel aiming straight.I geuss that would propably happen with my imaginery bike,but enough speed could keep it balanced....i think.

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I am not an "experienced rider" but I have ridden the no B.S. bike more than once. I can say without hesitation that once you change your hands from the bar that moves to the one that doesn't, you're finished turning...It's that simple.

Kevin Kane

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Hi V,

Looks like we will have to get the No BS bike to our Greek Schools!

I will speak with 0-300 and see what can be done.

All the best

Andy Ibbott

School Director (Europe)

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• 1 year later...

I was just wondering why the Bs bike won't turn when using the stationary bars. I know it won't turn well at all, but it should still be able to be leaned, especially at 20-25 miles per hour. I have an F4i with a throttle lock on it. When I get stuck behind a huge line a cars in the canyon I use my thottle lock and ride behind them no handed (breaks up the monotony of following cars). This works best at around 45 miles per hour, anything over 60 and the bike is very hard to turn, but at 45 it works just fine. I do notice a lag in the turning, kind of like a boat in a bay, but the bike still turns. I shift my weight, and sometimes if it is a tighter turn I will pull on the tank with my other leg.

I haven't yet attended school, but I am a student of the books. I ride pretty well and practice the gosple, but I also use my legs and pegs in certain situations like when the rear is sliding under power (which is rare on an F4i). I find that it helps to hold the back wheel under the bike if you weight the outside peg when it is sliding. I know that Keith and Pridmore differ on this subject (and most of the time I agree with Keith's teachings) where Peidmore will teach peg steering Keith will stress using the bars. I tend to use both methods. Am I simply wasting energy by using the pegs to help hold the back wheel under the bike? Keep in mind that I do lock on the bike by pushing on the out side peg as I feel that I should, but when the back starts to lose it I pick my butt up off the seat with the outside peg which pushes the back wheel back into place. I realise that I may be subconsiouly correcting this with the bars and that is why I am asking about it. I don't want to be doing something that is waisting energy, and taking some of my 10bucks away.

Thanks for the imput!

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I'd say "define turn"

Could you change direction at lower speeds on a bike without direct input to the bars? Sure.

Can you do it effectively or at high speeds? Not really...

Yes, I've seen the video of the Brit who rides the Duc no handed at about 8mph and does figure 8's while dragging his hands on the pavement. Very cool, but he's one out of about 10 million bike riders who can do this to that extreme.

The point is to illustrate that for an EFFECTIVE turn, you absolutely need an input to the bars.

While Keith doesn't really mention "turning with your feet", your legs are a very integral and active part in making a turn. They lock you on and provide the BASE for your power to generate from to input on the bars.

If you're turning at any real speed, you're doing it with the bars, plain and simple...

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Thank for the info JeF4y, I figured that was the case. As far as sliding under power goes, is it not nessesay to puch hard on the high peg to hold the back wheel under the bike? For all I know I may be doing it with the bars and pushing on the peg is just a usless this I do. Please keep in mind that I am not talking about riding that hard on the street, as I am sure you know from racing F4Is, to get a power slid out of one takes some prayer, non race tires, and corners that are 1st or 2nd gear. For me the back end sliding usually accures when I am in the mountains and run over some ice, or the road is a little slippery with dirt or other things. When this happens my reaction (or SR) is to weight the high peg by picking my butt up off the seat with that leg and leaving the thottle steady as to not get it to catch too hard. I most likely picked this up from playing arround with my friends dirt bikes when I was a kid. When your raceing do you handle all the sliding soley with the bars? I can easily see in a racing situation where the bike is really at 98% or more, that picking my butt up off the seat mid corner while sliding could upset my bike.

By the way, thanks for the info about making the F4i a track bike. Since I have only been an a track once (streets of willow about 6yrs ago) I think it would make a good bike to go out and get the feel of the bigger track. I'm going to get an 05 636 and turn my F4i into a track bike. If I actually am fast I will sell it and change the 636 into my track bike. This brings up another question, do they race the 636 in the 600 class? If not I will probably buy an R6 or a 600rr.

Good luck at your next race, maybe the cherry pickers will stay home next time!

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Thank for the info JeF4y, I figured that was the case. As far as sliding under power goes, is it not nessesay to puch hard on the high peg to hold the back wheel under the bike? For all I know I may be doing it with the bars and pushing on the peg is just a usless this I do. Please keep in mind that I am not talking about riding that hard on the street, as I am sure you know from racing F4Is, to get a power slid out of one takes some prayer, non race tires, and corners that are 1st or 2nd gear. For me the back end sliding usually accures when I am in the mountains and run over some ice, or the road is a little slippery with dirt or other things. When this happens my reaction (or SR) is to weight the high peg by picking my butt up off the seat with that leg and leaving the thottle steady as to not get it to catch too hard. I most likely picked this up from playing arround with my friends dirt bikes when I was a kid. When your raceing do you handle all the sliding soley with the bars? I can easily see in a racing situation where the bike is really at 98% or more, that picking my butt up off the seat mid corner while sliding could upset my bike.

By the way, thanks for the info about making the F4i a track bike. Since I have only been an a track once (streets of willow about 6yrs ago) I think it would make a good bike to go out and get the feel of the bigger track. I'm going to get an 05 636 and turn my F4i into a track bike. If I actually am fast I will sell it and change the 636 into my track bike. This brings up another question, do they race the 636 in the 600 class? If not I will probably buy an R6 or a 600rr.

Good luck at your next race, maybe the cherry pickers will stay home next time!

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When I start sliding, if it's long enough that I need to provide an input to the bike, it's in the form of picking the bike up a bit. This is done by simply lifting at the bars. My outside leg is already locked at that point. I guess I probably push down on the outside peg a bit to do this as well, that sounds logical, but consciously I'm not aware of doing it.

As for racing the 636, yes, in most organizations you can run the 636 in the middleweight class with the rest of the 600's.

Sliding the rear end is pretty easy. It's getting it back under control that can be the difficult piece.

If you hit ice/dirt/oil, at that point, the slide can/will usually be so abrupt that there is little you can do about it. However, if it's clean pavement and you simply run out of traction, you may very well be able to control it and regain stability.

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