spthomas Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 If you don't use warmers, the only penalty, other than saving hassle and expense, is having to take it easy the first few laps before you get really get on it. But my track buddy was asking me, and I didn't know, do you produced more wear and tear on the tire because it is cold, chewing up the rubber? My personal reason for wanting to do it is I like to get down to the front of the pit line at first call, so I can be the first out, so I can get ahead and stay ahead of all the other guys, eventually lapping the slower ones. Taking it a bit more slowly on the first two laps decreases my get-ahead margin. I'm thinking with warmers I can take off and stay ahead of the rest of the pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUNLOP-RTS Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 If you don't use warmers, the only penalty, other than saving hassle and expense, is having to take it easy the first few laps before you get really get on it. But my track buddy was asking me, and I didn't know, do you produced more wear and tear on the tire because it is cold, chewing up the rubber? My personal reason for wanting to do it is I like to get down to the front of the pit line at first call, so I can be the first out, so I can get ahead and stay ahead of all the other guys, eventually lapping the slower ones. Taking it a bit more slowly on the first two laps decreases my get-ahead margin. I'm thinking with warmers I can take off and stay ahead of the rest of the pack. Honestly? Are you asking if the tire starts without warmers and you then warm it up to temp, does it wear faster than a tire that on a warmer and you then ride on it? Really? Are you concerned with the wear difference of the first 2 slow laps as the tire comes up to temp? On the second part of your question. Its simple, if you want to go fast right out of the gate, use warmers. its that simple. there is nothing magical in play here. IF you want to stay in front of the pack on the out lap and you don't have warmers, you are taking a great risk pushing it against all the guys that do have warmers. Why would you do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spthomas Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Why would you do that? I should clarify- our track pits out at the beginning of a long straight, and most people in the B group don't use warmers, so I'm not trying to outrun people with warmers as far as I can tell. But everyone goes very slowly down the straight to the first corner as part of the warm up. What I like to do is get down there more quickly, then take it easier once the turns start for the few 2 laps. I don't see so much risk on a straight section if the tires aren't warmed up; I'm not pushing it with braking or cornering for 2 laps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUNLOP-RTS Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Why would you do that? I should clarify- our track pits out at the beginning of a long straight, and most people in the B group don't use warmers, so I'm not trying to outrun people with warmers as far as I can tell. But everyone goes very slowly down the straight to the first corner as part of the warm up. What I like to do is get down there more quickly, then take it easier once the turns start for the few 2 laps. I don't see so much risk on a straight section if the tires aren't warmed up; I'm not pushing it with braking or cornering for 2 laps. I am going have you rethink your question. Just ask it again, and make the question simple. Lets not make this complicated. Your question does not make sense to me yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozfireblade Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Stevo, Im confused to your question as well. The title says reduce tyre wear. If the tyre is warm then it wont cold tear and you will have longer life out of your tyre, you can acheive greater lean angles from the first lap and you can stay in front of the slow guys. If your going to the front of the group on pit call to eventually lap the slow riders I think it may be time for you to step up a level, seeing as your thinking about warmers now. When the pit call goes out and you sit there for 5 minutes waiting for everyone else to come out would your tyres have lost heat, especially on a cold day? Sort of defeats the purpose of warming the tyres in the first place. Personally I would wait till most riders are out there waiting before I get the warmers off. 30 secs won't make much difference, 5 minutes will. Guess it wont matter as much on really hot days. I look at it this way 6-8 x 15-20 minute sessions on an average track day? 2-3 laps warm up per session thats between 12-24 laps warming up each track day, at least with the warmers on you dont have to waste a full session each day warming up. I think thats what you were getting at, if not apologies Dylan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spthomas Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Why would you do that? I should clarify- our track pits out at the beginning of a long straight, and most people in the B group don't use warmers, so I'm not trying to outrun people with warmers as far as I can tell. But everyone goes very slowly down the straight to the first corner as part of the warm up. What I like to do is get down there more quickly, then take it easier once the turns start for the few 2 laps. I don't see so much risk on a straight section if the tires aren't warmed up; I'm not pushing it with braking or cornering for 2 laps. I am going have you rethink your question. Just ask it again, and make the question simple. Lets not make this complicated. Your question does not make sense to me yet. Re-reading my first post is a little confusing to me too Question: does a cold tire, when pushed only as far as is reasonably safe during warm up laps, get more wear on the tire because it's cold, compared to having it warmed up? Maybe not but we wanted to be sure. I'm not a tire expert, so when us fairly inexperienced guys read things like "cold tearing" we think maybe we shouldn't be riding the tires cold at all and warm them up. (And we all remember in science class the rubber ball dipped in liquid nitrogen then dropped on the floor and watch it shatter- I know cold on a track isn't that cold, but there's a lot of tire things we're learning here that are surprising and seemlingly counter-intuitive at first, like 23 psi on a rear tire.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spthomas Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Stevo, Im confused to your question as well. The title says reduce tyre wear. If the tyre is warm then it wont cold tear and you will have longer life out of your tyre, you can acheive greater lean angles from the first lap and you can stay in front of the slow guys. If your going to the front of the group on pit call to eventually lap the slow riders I think it may be time for you to step up a level, seeing as your thinking about warmers now. When the pit call goes out and you sit there for 5 minutes waiting for everyone else to come out would your tyres have lost heat, especially on a cold day? Sort of defeats the purpose of warming the tyres in the first place. Personally I would wait till most riders are out there waiting before I get the warmers off. 30 secs won't make much difference, 5 minutes will. Guess it wont matter as much on really hot days. I look at it this way 6-8 x 15-20 minute sessions on an average track day? 2-3 laps warm up per session thats between 12-24 laps warming up each track day, at least with the warmers on you dont have to waste a full session each day warming up. I think thats what you were getting at, if not apologies Dylan Yes, this was what I was getting at in the later part of the original post. I was in the B group and getting frustrated about passing the other guys with the more restrictive passing rules we had, although I must say the "pick-up drill" from level 2 last spring has really enabled me to get past people even though I'm on a 600 and many other are on 1000's. I'm transitioning from B group to I group and it's more common for the I guys to be using tire warmers. Several of us at the last few track days were realizing too that we're spending 20% of our day warming up the tires. If one has to wait at the pit lane either because they are eager to get down early, or sitting there for a red flag event, are there any rules of thumb about how long you can wait there? I suppose it depends a lot on the situation at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUNLOP-RTS Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Why would you do that? I should clarify- our track pits out at the beginning of a long straight, and most people in the B group don't use warmers, so I'm not trying to outrun people with warmers as far as I can tell. But everyone goes very slowly down the straight to the first corner as part of the warm up. What I like to do is get down there more quickly, then take it easier once the turns start for the few 2 laps. I don't see so much risk on a straight section if the tires aren't warmed up; I'm not pushing it with braking or cornering for 2 laps. I am going have you rethink your question. Just ask it again, and make the question simple. Lets not make this complicated. Your question does not make sense to me yet. Re-reading my first post is a little confusing to me too Question: does a cold tire, when pushed only as far as is reasonably safe during warm up laps, get more wear on the tire because it's cold, compared to having it warmed up? Maybe not but we wanted to be sure. I'm not a tire expert, so when us fairly inexperienced guys read things like "cold tearing" we think maybe we shouldn't be riding the tires cold at all and warm them up. (And we all remember in science class the rubber ball dipped in liquid nitrogen then dropped on the floor and watch it shatter- I know cold on a track isn't that cold, but there's a lot of tire things we're learning here that are surprising and seemlingly counter-intuitive at first, like 23 psi on a rear tire.) Stevo, OK, thanks for the rewording. I accomplished my goal, which was to have you re-look at your question and rethink what the exacting scenario was. I will answer your question at the bottom, But I want to make a point first: The question being asked must have the proper context in order to be useful. There were many unknown pieces of data, like how long you sat in the pits before going out, how cold the day was, did you take slow laps, there was a long straightaway, these and others were not included in the original question. I tend to be a bit shy at firing off a direct answer when there are a lot of undefined variable. My big point being that there are many variables with tires. Some things matter and some things don't. Certainly if you sat for 20 minutes on a cold windy day at the pit out your tire would cool off considerable, and if it was a hot 90 deg day the tire would stay warmer. You can see its hard to just answer "Yes" or "No". To answer your question: Yes the tire will wear faster when cold. But take into account the lap times for the warm up will be much slower and thus less wear. so you must consider both factors. But in the big picture this is a very small factor in considering a tire warmer or not. The important factor in tire warmer choice is if you want the first 2 laps to be "Warm up" or "Go fast". This choice depends on your personal situation. Are you racing or track days. Cold or hot days. Your cash on hand for warmers and other considerations. You pointed out that 20% of your day taken up with warming your tires. Assess your situation and do the math. It may be that you will save $ by getting warmers and thus getting more track time for your hard earned dollar. But if you find you are tired by the end of the day and miss the last session, that 2 lap saving is lost in the unused session. Summation: YES the cold tire will wear faster. The tire will wear less on a slower lap. Neither of these are important factors for deciding to use a warmer or not. Warmer choice is determined by your need to go fast on the first 2 laps or not. Thanks for the question. Thanks ozfireblade for the jump in assist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozfireblade Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 No worries glad to get a field assist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Slightly OT On the first few laps, tyre warmers can give you something you cannot buy. Confidence! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spthomas Posted January 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Summation: YES the cold tire will wear faster. The tire will wear less on a slower lap. Neither of these are important factors for deciding to use a warmer or not. Warmer choice is determined by your need to go fast on the first 2 laps or not. Thanks for the question. Thanks ozfireblade for the jump in assist. Thanks for working through this with me- it's always interesting to find out the other side to a point, like in this case cold might wear more but it's offset by going slower, and none of it really matters as to using tire warmers. I think a lot of the urban myth surrounding tires (or just about any aspect of life!) starts when you get a partial truth but not the whole story and perspective. That said, I think I will investigate getting warmers. I don't want to spend so much time at the beginning of a session warming them up and no, I don't leave early- I paid for this! (I'm always surprised that a lot of guys that go home at 3:00, but I like it because you get a lot of clear track the last 2 sessions!) While warmers (and a generator) aren't cheap, there is also the factor that there is just a finite number of track opportunities, and I want to make the most of what's available to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUNLOP-RTS Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I think a lot of the urban myth surrounding tires (or just about any aspect of life!) starts when you get a partial truth but not the whole story and perspective. That said, I think I will investigate getting warmers. I don't want to spend so much time at the beginning of a session warming them up and no, I don't leave early- I paid for this! (I'm always surprised that a lot of guys that go home at 3:00, but I like it because you get a lot of clear track the last 2 sessions!) While warmers (and a generator) aren't cheap, there is also the factor that there is just a finite number of track opportunities, and I want to make the most of what's available to me. You are so right about the Urban Myths. They start with some truth, but get out of hand real quick. OK, time for a shameless plug. http://cgi.ebay.com/...me=STRK:MESE:IT These are good Chickenhawk warmers. I sell them too. You can call me to order, shoot me a PM or get them from this guy on eBay. He has 1 set I have more and can get them in the single temp, 3 temp and digital. If this is not shameless enough, please let me know and I will pump it up a bit to be really cheesy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUNLOP-RTS Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Slightly OT On the first few laps, tyre warmers can give you something you cannot buy. Confidence! Cheers Moving into OVER TIME! Bones sets up, shoots.... and scores!!! You are so right. That confidence is worth every penny! $$$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Slightly OT On the first few laps, tyre warmers can give you something you cannot buy. Confidence! Cheers Moving into OVER TIME! Bones sets up, shoots.... and scores!!! You are so right. That confidence is worth every penny! $$$$ And it also gives you more attention for your $10 on your riding, rather than "Are my tyres ok?". Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spthomas Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 [You are so right about the Urban Myths. They start with some truth, but get out of hand real quick. OK, time for a shameless plug. http://cgi.ebay.com/...me=STRK:MESE:IT These are good Chickenhawk warmers. I sell them too. You can call me to order, shoot me a PM or get them from this guy on eBay. He has 1 set I have more and can get them in the single temp, 3 temp and digital. If this is not shameless enough, please let me know and I will pump it up a bit to be really cheesy. I admit would be pretty cool to have the Dunlop labeled ones, although Sportbiketrackgear also has a CHR single temp model with their not-quite-as-cool logo for only $275. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUNLOP-RTS Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 [You are so right about the Urban Myths. They start with some truth, but get out of hand real quick. OK, time for a shameless plug. http://cgi.ebay.com/...me=STRK:MESE:IT These are good Chickenhawk warmers. I sell them too. You can call me to order, shoot me a PM or get them from this guy on eBay. He has 1 set I have more and can get them in the single temp, 3 temp and digital. If this is not shameless enough, please let me know and I will pump it up a bit to be really cheesy. I admit would be pretty cool to have the Dunlop labeled ones, although Sportbiketrackgear also has a CHR single temp model with their not-quite-as-cool logo for only $275. The STG warmer is not the exact same warmer and is made with a different cover/material. You will get what you pay for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spthomas Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 The STG warmer is not the exact same warmer and is made with a different cover/material. You will get what you pay for. I wondered about that, thanks for the insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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