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Cadwell Mountain , Throttle Control


teg
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hello all

just made a comeback after a while off (new baby , blown motor replaced) and got a run out at a warm and dry cadwell park .

so for those of you familiar , hopefully bullets about !

took me all day to get back to my previous pace but got there in the end .

question is throttle control over the mountain bear in mind i,m on a 1999 r6 with standard motor 99.5bhp at wheel and downgeared a bit .211 ntec tyres .

i,m not trying to wheelie quite the opposite as i,m interested in quicker laps but can,t keep the front down .

after talking to a few people i get reasonable drive out of the right hander and try and crest just past center of track .standing on pegs and putting more weight over the front .

but sometimes get the big roll off to stop it from trying to flip over then forks land - boing up she comes again another roll off !!

i do sometimes get it better what i try to do is check the throttle as front starts to lift then hold steady then roll on .

i understand the mountain is not 1 regular climb but how i see it a first concave (viewed from side)slope then turning into a convex slope .

assuming the suspension extends both ends as i roll on the gas on approach then just as front wheel starts to come up the rear wheel then starts climbing the different part of the slope at a different angle and tries to wheelie more - on the same throttle input if not rolled off or checked .

 

my theory is that if i could jump the mountain instead of wheelie i could get a much quicker / smoother section of track here .

but am i dreaming on my 600 ? is this not possible ...

 

i,m sure part of the problem is that i anticipate the front coming up and roll off too soon - rather than check the gas as it starts to rise then continue rolling on - i did get this right a couple of times and did feel much smoother but overall i,m sure i,m loosing time here .

 

hopefully someone will put me right on the timing / profile of the mountain or both , cheers .

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hello all

just made a comeback after a while off (new baby , blown motor replaced) and got a run out at a warm and dry cadwell park .

so for those of you familiar , hopefully bullets about !

took me all day to get back to my previous pace but got there in the end .

question is throttle control over the mountain bear in mind i,m on a 1999 r6 with standard motor 99.5bhp at wheel and downgeared a bit .211 ntec tyres .

i,m not trying to wheelie quite the opposite as i,m interested in quicker laps but can,t keep the front down .

after talking to a few people i get reasonable drive out of the right hander and try and crest just past center of track .standing on pegs and putting more weight over the front .

but sometimes get the big roll off to stop it from trying to flip over then forks land - boing up she comes again another roll off !!

i do sometimes get it better what i try to do is check the throttle as front starts to lift then hold steady then roll on .

i understand the mountain is not 1 regular climb but how i see it a first concave (viewed from side)slope then turning into a convex slope .

assuming the suspension extends both ends as i roll on the gas on approach then just as front wheel starts to come up the rear wheel then starts climbing the different part of the slope at a different angle and tries to wheelie more - on the same throttle input if not rolled off or checked .

 

my theory is that if i could jump the mountain instead of wheelie i could get a much quicker / smoother section of track here .

but am i dreaming on my 600 ? is this not possible ...

 

i,m sure part of the problem is that i anticipate the front coming up and roll off too soon - rather than check the gas as it starts to rise then continue rolling on - i did get this right a couple of times and did feel much smoother but overall i,m sure i,m loosing time here .

 

hopefully someone will put me right on the timing / profile of the mountain or both , cheers .

 

 

Evening. ;)

 

 

So, Cadwell mountain, got to love it. Have to say, I've not been in a few years, so I'll have to shoot from memory a little. Now, you've definitely worked out the right place to be on the track, if you go to far over the left, it'll come up allday, the middle is definitely the best place to stop that. So you've consider throttle roll on/versus checked, which do you think is best and why? Next question, are you able to accelerate with the wheels in the air? So, which is quicker then? Which do you want? Speed or styling it up for the pics showing your friends you have two wheels in the air? How much pressure you got on those bars when you're stood up?

 

 

Bullet

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Firstly, I'm not familiar with Cadwell so the advise maybe incorrect for your situation, but .....

 

One way to stop the front wheel from lifting over a crest under acceleration (without checking or rolling off the throttle), is to use the rear brake.

 

Cheers

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To give you an idea of what the mountain is like, here's Josh Brookes taking it last year:

 

RS10CP-290810-4084.jpg

 

Well worth searching for in youtube as it's very entertaining. From my experience it's more like a cliff face than a regular crest. That said, the worst I had last year was my back wheel spinning up at the top in the rain as I wasn't going fast enough to even loft the front.

 

 

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Cadwell Park Mountain.bmp

To give you an idea of what the mountain is like, here's Josh Brookes taking it last year:

 

RS10CP-290810-4084.jpg

 

Well worth searching for in youtube as it's very entertaining. From my experience it's more like a cliff face than a regular crest. That said, the worst I had last year was my back wheel spinning up at the top in the rain as I wasn't going fast enough to even loft the front.

Here is what a mere mortal looks like going over the mountain... quite hard to keep the front down adn I was going pretty slow!!!

 

Cadwell Park Mountain.bmp

 

 

Rather embarassing in comparison!!! Hahahaha

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Here is what a mere mortal looks like going over the mountain... quite hard to keep the front down adn I was going pretty slow!!!

 

Cadwell Park Mountain.bmp

 

 

Rather embarassing in comparison!!! Hahahaha

 

Still, much better than me on an identical bike last year!

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from memory - far left one big bump in the track, right hand side 2 bumps second one bigger

as Bullet says, best way is down the middle

 

could try to keep the bike stable and put the power down after the crest? Having watched a good few trackday sessions there a common theme is a big handful of throttle in the last section of the uphil leading to this problem. by contrast those riders who are more progressive with the throttle, keep the bike and the suspension as stable as possible are able to get the power down much more efficently from the crest onwards

 

unless you are josh brooks and can get that much power down in the uphill you jump a huge section of the track, its not the best way for us non pro riders. Have a look at the riding comparisons on last year's bsb race with kiyo and brooks (i remember brooks doing a jump overtake and almost landing on kiyo cant find it on youtube anywhere)

 

For anyone reading this thread, dont try this but its great to see the pro's doing it...

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cheers all and thanks bullet

for the record the josh brookes pics are great !!!! but getting back to the real world and with 100bhp less (and talent) - i was previously using a bit of rear brake but changed tack for what i,m doin - at start of this post as described .

for the record i know i,m quite vain but i,m not interested in stylin it up for the pics just want to get round quicker .

out of interest bullet the standing on the pegs does feel a bit awkward and know what you mean about pressure on bars especially as i,m trying to lean over front of the bike a bit (can,t control hand pressure so well when i,m standin up) .

 

as for the momentary throttle check or 1 roll on well i dunno ? i know i,d rather have less to do ha ha but my timing just feels not quite right - maybe to avoid checking the throttle i need to roll on later ????? or a slower steadier roll on -from early on .

i guess i,m just lazy and want to stand it up and pin it ?????

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cheers all and thanks bullet

for the record the josh brookes pics are great !!!! but getting back to the real world and with 100bhp less (and talent) - i was previously using a bit of rear brake but changed tack for what i,m doin - at start of this post as described .

for the record i know i,m quite vain but i,m not interested in stylin it up for the pics just want to get round quicker .

out of interest bullet the standing on the pegs does feel a bit awkward and know what you mean about pressure on bars especially as i,m trying to lean over front of the bike a bit (can,t control hand pressure so well when i,m standin up) .

 

as for the momentary throttle check or 1 roll on well i dunno ? i know i,d rather have less to do ha ha but my timing just feels not quite right - maybe to avoid checking the throttle i need to roll on later ????? or a slower steadier roll on -from early on .

i guess i,m just lazy and want to stand it up and pin it ?????

 

Watch this video, is said Mr Brookes, check it out about 3:10,

What can you tell he does? This one is good too, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw9flhQUR2o as the lads are fairly cracking on too. Notice anything about how they take the mountain?

 

Bullet

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cheers bullet

is that a bit of back brake near the top ??? looks like 1 long smooth roll on but i,m assuming thats the wheels comin off the deck at the top - for brookes .

the guy on the gixxer thou is quick!!! about 1 min 41,s i reckon - he looks like he runs slightly wider on exit of the right hander up the mountain but then cuts back across a bit more than me but a bit of rear brake i reckon ? or the throttle checked for a bit ? not quite sure i,m currently 1.47 best - i only need 6 secs then , ha ha .

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cheers bullet

is that a bit of back brake near the top ??? looks like 1 long smooth roll on but i,m assuming thats the wheels comin off the deck at the top - for brookes .

the guy on the gixxer thou is quick!!! about 1 min 41,s i reckon - he looks like he runs slightly wider on exit of the right hander up the mountain but then cuts back across a bit more than me but a bit of rear brake i reckon ? or the throttle checked for a bit ? not quite sure i,m currently 1.47 best - i only need 6 secs then , ha ha .

 

I'm thiniking (and hearing), check throttle roll on. You can't keep rolling it on with both wheels off the ground, as it'll only make it wheelie more, causing you to roll off.

 

Bullet

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Firstly, I'm not familiar with Cadwell so the advise maybe incorrect for your situation, but .....

 

One way to stop the front wheel from lifting over a crest cliff under acceleration (without checking or rolling off the throttle), is to use the rear air brake.

 

Cheers

 

After seeing the pictures and video, I have amended my advise above accordingly :P

 

Cheers!

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Firstly, I'm not familiar with Cadwell so the advise maybe incorrect for your situation, but .....

 

One way to stop the front wheel from lifting over a crest cliff under acceleration (without checking or rolling off the throttle), is to use the rear air brake.

 

Cheers

 

After seeing the pictures and video, I have amended my advise above accordingly :P

 

Cheers!

 

:lol:

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cheers bullet

i can hear the throttle check on brookes but i assumed thats because he was wheels off the deck - but i bet he has to check it just b-4 and it just sounds easy .

the tv / dvd footage nearly always shows them from the other side of the bike so can,t see throttle hand .

 

the guy on the gixxer is closer to what i,m doing although he looks quicker and smoother .

so i guess i do need the check throttle but maybe i need to get my timing a bit better - can,t work out if i need to be fractionally sooner or later though ????? guess i,ll have to get a video going for you to see proper .

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A top level BSB rider told me that Josh and many others go over the mountain pinned and the engine management sorted out over revving and wheelies.

If that's true then the constant revs you hear when the bike is in the air is due to Snr Magnetti Marelli doing what he does best.

The same BSB rider said the reason that Josh is a bit quicker than many of the top level guys is because he jumps the bike over both crests and that means he has the bike with both wheels in contact with the tarmac for the longes and therefore puts the most power down.

If you speak to Josh he will tell you that is at least part true: he does jump both 'bumps' and he believes that is what makes him quickest at that point on the circuit.

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intersting stuff

still think i can gain a bit of time here with a bit more attention to timing / throttle control at my level .

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intersting stuff

still think i can gain a bit of time here with a bit more attention to timing / throttle control at my level .

 

just an up date got out this week at cadwell again and was wet for a while so stuggled a bit but later on i did get 2 wheel lift off albeit only once and minimal but the throttle drive was much much smoother . i was also a fraction wider at the top of the mountain than my normal although not right over to left but i think it was the smooth application of the gas and the initial pause / check that was the major factor . problem was i only got it what felt like right once . i can see this timing is real important .

 

which i was a quicker learner though ......

now about hall bends ..........

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intersting stuff

still think i can gain a bit of time here with a bit more attention to timing / throttle control at my level .

 

just an up date got out this week at cadwell again and was wet for a while so stuggled a bit but later on i did get 2 wheel lift off albeit only once and minimal but the throttle drive was much much smoother . i was also a fraction wider at the top of the mountain than my normal although not right over to left but i think it was the smooth application of the gas and the initial pause / check that was the major factor . problem was i only got it what felt like right once . i can see this timing is real important .

 

which i was a quicker learner though ......

now about hall bends ..........

 

Good effort mate, keep working at it.

 

Bullet

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cheers bullet will do ,

gonna try and lift my pegs a bit i,ve had a look about and i think this would help me a bit too .

i,ll post another point about hall bends next couple of days .

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hello all

( bullet ) now then hall bends , i,ve just re watched the vids earlier posted by bullet .

my question is this -

from the first right at hall bends at cadwell to the last left before the hairpin i,ve tried to start this as one continous roll on -- rather than roll off a fraction before the direction change ( then little roll on to steady the bike )for the next left and then same again for the right .

 

now this does feel smoother but of course it means tryin to turn into the left and right whilst steadily still trying to roll on the throttle ( because of the length of time involved for this section of track i may be checking the throttle for a period before continuing the roll on - but what i am trying to achieve is , after turning into the first right after the mountain 1 long continous smooth roll on until i leave the last left b-4 the hairpin )

watching the 2nd of the 2 bits of film footage i think this is what the gut on the quick gixxer looks to be doing .

 

anyway your thought s on this appreciated .......... cheers ..

p.s should i start another post hall bends instead ??

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hello all

( bullet ) now then hall bends , i,ve just re watched the vids earlier posted by bullet .

my question is this -

from the first right at hall bends at cadwell to the last left before the hairpin i,ve tried to start this as one continous roll on -- rather than roll off a fraction before the direction change ( then little roll on to steady the bike )for the next left and then same again for the right .

 

now this does feel smoother but of course it means tryin to turn into the left and right whilst steadily still trying to roll on the throttle ( because of the length of time involved for this section of track i may be checking the throttle for a period before continuing the roll on - but what i am trying to achieve is , after turning into the first right after the mountain 1 long continous smooth roll on until i leave the last left b-4 the hairpin )

watching the 2nd of the 2 bits of film footage i think this is what the gut on the quick gixxer looks to be doing .

 

anyway your thought s on this appreciated .......... cheers ..

p.s should i start another post hall bends instead ??

 

I'm ok with it being in this thread, but next time, yes, let's start another one.

 

OK, so I'd like you to watch the second video again. This time, pay special attention to the noise of the engine and the tacho as you can visually see that as he rides through the section. Is he rolling it on all the way? Does he check/roll off at all?

 

What do you see/hear?

 

Bullet

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o.k what i,m seeing / hearing

he rolls off and turns into the first right ,and is still rolled off as direction changes and flicks into left ,then picks up gas and starts roll on briefly - then i think it is checked (held constant) as he flicks into the last right then continues rolling on as soon as bike is turned over the crest (as it then starts to bend left at the hairpin approach)

 

i,m guessing he doesn,t roll off before he flicks it into the last right (i,m ignoring the left kink b-4 the hairpin for now) although i can hear the revs drop slightly but i,m assuming thats as the bike turns .

out of interest this is what i,m trying to do .

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o.k what i,m seeing / hearing

he rolls off and turns into the first right ,and is still rolled off as direction changes and flicks into left ,then picks up gas and starts roll on briefly - then i think it is checked (held constant) as he flicks into the last right then continues rolling on as soon as bike is turned over the crest (as it then starts to bend left at the hairpin approach)

 

i,m guessing he doesn,t roll off before he flicks it into the last right (i,m ignoring the left kink b-4 the hairpin for now) although i can hear the revs drop slightly but i,m assuming thats as the bike turns .

out of interest this is what i,m trying to do .

 

 

so then, I think we've cleared up then that you're not able to roll on, and keep rolling going through the sequence of bends? Final question, as the bike rolls over onto the smaller part of the tyre (i.e. the side), do the revs rise, or drop? So, given this thought, when the bike turns and the rev drops, what must the rider be doing?

 

Bullet

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the revs rise as you get onto the smaller part of the tyre .

 

- i should have been able to figure this out for myself - he must be doing a slight roll off b-4 the last right or the revs wouldn,t drop .

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