Turn In Point V Apex

[Mike3000]

Hi All

 

I remember a while back there was a thread about which was most important between turn in point and apex point. It was pretty much agreed that the apex point was the most important.

 

What I am struggling with is that if you miss your turn in point, late or early, and turn in quickly then from the "new" turn in point the apex will not be in the same place? From a different turn in point the corner is not the same shape so needs a different apex?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Mike

[Steve Rutter]

Whilst there may be one 'perfect' apex for each corner, the actual apex will differ for each different rider and turn point.

 

Watching an instructional video Rossi did a while back, racers will have several different lines (and thus turn points and apexes) for each corner; a qualifying line which will be the quickest possible line, a defensive line to prevent anyone from passing and an offensive line to make a pass.

[Crash106]

I agree with Steve. If you are out for a ride and just want to create a nice, swooping, "perfect" line, that's one thing; if you're in a race, competing with other aggressive, skilled and determined riders, that's something else. Just riding can be about flowing around the curves, while racing is about winning and beating the other guy.

 

I've seen lots of races where the rider in first place starts to get some distance on the second and third place riders. Suddenly, he gets to ride the "perfect" line, while the other two riders have to take and defend the slower defensive and offensive lines. Next thing you know, the leaders is 4 or 5 seconds ahead!

 

Since I don't race, I like to concentrate on my vision and let the road help me make one long, smooth curve per turn with a nice, easy roll on. When I do that, the bike just purrs.

[Bones]

In the early days of the Superbike School in Level 3, the last session for the day was 'Product'. Basically, 'What is the result you want from the corner?".

 

The result you want from the corner, is not always being upright and a maximum exit speed. There is a swag of parameters that will dictate the results you're aiming for. Constant, increasing, decreasing corners; Corners that are linked to another (S bends and chicanes), setting up for over taking (entry, exit etc.. or a block pass).

 

So, rather than Turn In Point Vs Apex, maybe you need to consider the Product/Result you want, and your plan to obtain it.

 

Remember, if you increase the speed at your turn in point, you will need to increase your steering rate (how fast/hard you turn the bike), to maintain the same line as before.

 

Cheers

[teg]

In the early days of the Superbike School in Level 3, the last session for the day was 'Product'. Basically, 'What is the result you want from the corner?".

 

The result you want from the corner, is not always being upright and a maximum exit speed. There is a swag of parameters that will dictate the results you're aiming for. Constant, increasing, decreasing corners; Corners that are linked to another (S bends and chicanes), setting up for over taking (entry, exit etc.. or a block pass).

 

So, rather than Turn In Point Vs Apex, maybe you need to consider the Product/Result you want, and your plan to obtain it.

 

Remember, if you increase the speed at your turn in point, you will need to increase your steering rate (how fast/hard you turn the bike), to maintain the same line as before.

 

Cheers

i agree with bones on this 1 - a pro rider once told me a corner hinges on the apex - so in theory yes the apex is more important - but that is oversimplifying it as he points out above .

[Mike3000]

teg

 

I think we are getting at what I am trying to say. Once the product has been chosen you will have found the apex you want and to get that apex you will have a turn in point that will put you there with a good quick turn.

 

Does that not mean that the turn in point is more important?

 

If you miss that turning point do you not have to then adjust your apex point and your product?

 

I'm trying to get this sorted in my own mind so I don't know:)

 

Mike

[Bones]

Hi Mike,

 

Yes, the turn in point is more important in this case.

 

It is one of the keystones of the confidence formula. Which is to say that; if you hit your turn in point according to your plan, you'll begin the corner with confidence.

 

Cheers

[teg]

hi all

i know totally what your saying about turn point and this is correct to a point in that miss your turn point and then you miss your apex .

but tell me this if you,ve missed your turn point or gone early ,what are you next looking for ??? its got to be apex alright maybe not the ideal apex but you,ve got to have 1 if not if you followed this thro you would just run off track if you blew the turn point . so for me personally the apex is more important .

what i,m saying is a wrong apex is better than none and by getting a wrong apex tells you that the turn point is wrong or that your visual drills are not being used properly .i say this as this was an earlier problem that i had to work on .. and still am .

[Bones]

Hi Teg,

 

Just to be sure that we are on the same page:- Can you define what you call 'apex' that your looking for?

 

Cheers

[teg]

hi bones

the apex to me is the point closest to the inner edge of the track that i want to get to - on any particular turn .

[Bones]

Hi Teg,

 

So the result of the turn in (position, speed, direction, getting on the gas etc....) is where you will apex and then exit the corner.

 

If you've blown the turn in, you'll be aware of the result too late. There isn't much you can do. Trying to correct mistakes mid corner is how crashes (or off track excursions) can happen. Although you may need to make corrections to prevent one.

 

So, wouldn't it be better to be working on a turn in point that gives you the result (apex, speed, exit etc..) you want. And if (or when) you blow the turn in point, be aware of the result? If I had turned in too early, I was late on the gas and carrying more lean angle. But, what if I turned a little later, and I found that I exited the corner with room to spare; I could I not have got on the gas early/harder? So my original turn in point was a little early, a slight correction in the plan is required.

 

When you become aware that you've made a mistake in your riding, the cause of that mistake is behind you (something you did prior).

 

Cheers

[teg]

hi bones

agree totally with what your saying

however -let me tell you about my previous problem , picked up by coaches i was visually too hung up on the turn point to the degree that i was neglecting the apex - this may be a fine point or just my personal odd problem but for me once i held the apex in mind with more importance than the turn point i made progress .

i guess this is a case of each rider being different and in my case even worse in that i didn,t know i was doing it!!! until showed , this could also be put down to timing i suppose ...

(n.b riding at slower speeds wasn,t a problem only when started too push)

theres a lot of parameters riding bikes quickly on track and i think this is where the work is .....

 

now out of interest it will just be another problem if i start getting to hung up on the apex also ! - what i mean is everything has its place at a given time ..... so for me at the moment i hold the apex in greater importance - but !!! this may change if i start getting another problem.

[Jasonzilla]

I would argue that both are equally important to get through a corner successfully. If you take one over the other you're not getting through the corner properly and your drive or line into the next corner will suffer. BUT, for the sake of argument.....

First, the Superbike School has a drill that teaches turn points (TP's) and one that addresses attack angles, which includes how to change up your TP to get them right. Whether it's a sharp, regular, or shallow turn, you can take a standard apex and be successful in safety, and be relatively quick.

 

I think of the ways a TP is messed up. I initially think about early and late entry into a corner (too early or late a TP). Can we consider turning when we're too far inside (which can be a product of drifting toward the corner) as a TP error? That would be three possible ways to mess up a TP.

Lining your TP up is critical to getting the proper angle to your apex. If you miss your TP early, you're going to be at the wrong angle and have to stay off the gas until you've corrected it as well as possibly running wide, causing a panic. If you're late in turning, you're probably hard braking, possibly causing a panic. You will have to turn at a steeper angle, and will be launching out off from the corner a slower speed. Maybe even in the wrong gear. I'd also say two of the three TP errors can spark survival reactions (SR's) caused by panicking. Drifting in before your TP means you have to enter the corner at a slower speed because your TP is actually wrong, which will leave you falling behind your friend wondering why he's pulling away from you so easily. Two of THREE errors could cause an SR.

 

 

Then there is apexing. You can apex too early or too late.

If you apex early on a sharp corner you're going to be way off and have to stall on getting back on the throttle and maybe even brake in a corner and stand the bike up if not just make turning corrections. An SR could be sparked. Late apexing a fast corner won't allow a bounce to the outside and will force you to be harder on the throttle coming out of the turn. It won't cause an SR, but will leave you greedy on the throttle. It would even allow the rider to downshift without being concerned about too much other stuff if he overshot the apex. He'll be "through the corner" being able to get back on the gas and pick the bike up. That means only one of the TWO could cause an SR.

I'd think the TP is more important to get right for both speed and safety reasons if I had to argue one over the other.

[Mike3000]

I would argue that both are equally important to get through a corner successfully. If you take one over the other you're not getting through the corner properly and your drive or line into the next corner will suffer. BUT, for the sake of argument.....

First, the Superbike School has a drill that teaches turn points (TP's) and one that addresses attack angles, which includes how to change up your TP to get them right. Whether it's a sharp, regular, or shallow turn, you can take a standard apex and be successful in safety, and be relatively quick.

 

I think of the ways a TP is messed up. I initially think about early and late entry into a corner (too early or late a TP). Can we consider turning when we're too far inside (which can be a product of drifting toward the corner) as a TP error? That would be three possible ways to mess up a TP.

Lining your TP up is critical to getting the proper angle to your apex. If you miss your TP early, you're going to be at the wrong angle and have to stay off the gas until you've corrected it as well as possibly running wide, causing a panic. If you're late in turning, you're probably hard braking, possibly causing a panic. You will have to turn at a steeper angle, and will be launching out off from the corner a slower speed. Maybe even in the wrong gear. I'd also say two of the three TP errors can spark survival reactions (SR's) caused by panicking. Drifting in before your TP means you have to enter the corner at a slower speed because your TP is actually wrong, which will leave you falling behind your friend wondering why he's pulling away from you so easily. Two of THREE errors could cause an SR.

 

 

Then there is apexing. You can apex too early or too late.

If you apex early on a sharp corner you're going to be way off and have to stall on getting back on the throttle and maybe even brake in a corner and stand the bike up if not just make turning corrections. An SR could be sparked. Late apexing a fast corner won't allow a bounce to the outside and will force you to be harder on the throttle coming out of the turn. It won't cause an SR, but will leave you greedy on the throttle. It would even allow the rider to downshift without being concerned about too much other stuff if he overshot the apex. He'll be "through the corner" being able to get back on the gas and pick the bike up. That means only one of the TWO could cause an SR.

I'd think the TP is more important to get right for both speed and safety reasons if I had to argue one over the other.

 

Thats what I meant to say

[Bones]

hi bones

agree totally with what your saying

however -let me tell you about my previous problem , picked up by coaches i was visually too hung up on the turn point to the degree that i was neglecting the apex - this may be a fine point or just my personal odd problem but for me once i held the apex in mind with more importance than the turn point i made progress .

i guess this is a case of each rider being different and in my case even worse in that i didn,t know i was doing it!!! until showed , this could also be put down to timing i suppose ...

(n.b riding at slower speeds wasn,t a problem only when started too push)

theres a lot of parameters riding bikes quickly on track and i think this is where the work is .....

 

now out of interest it will just be another problem if i start getting to hung up on the apex also ! - what i mean is everything has its place at a given time ..... so for me at the moment i hold the apex in greater importance - but !!! this may change if i start getting another problem.

 

Hi Teg,

Sounds like the solution for you was the 2 Step (level 2)? Combined this with the Vanishing Point and Wide Screen, it assists in keeping your vision up and in the direction you want to be. So if (when) you feel your getting hung up on the Apex Reference Point, revise the Vanishing Point and Wide Screen drills.

 

Cheers

[khp]

Sounds like the solution for you was the 2 Step (level 2)?

Two-step is the final drill of Level 1. Wide view, vanishing points and three-step are Level 2 drills.

 

Kai

[teg]

cheers all

sounds simple doesn,t it , i,ve done level 4 more than twice so went back from 3 step to revisit 2 step .

i was initially real dissapointed but this was coaches way of getting me over this new (to me ) problem .

i think it was more a timing thing in that i was 2 and indeed 3 stepping (t.point , apex, exit) previously but in the in between period between last school visit my speeds had all gone up on the track considerably - but - i wasn,t smart enough to figure that the timing between shifting the vision from t.p to apex then apex to exit needed to change as i was now condensing it into a shorter space in time ......

just shows how good these guys are at watching fine points (video was real help)

 

just another example i reckon of how certain problems arise dissappear then at a new pace can come back ,interestingly on the same day another rider in our group was having more or less opposite problems to me ( he was shifting his vision to the next stage too soon )

[Bones]

Sounds like the solution for you was the 2 Step (level 2)?

Two-step is the final drill of Level 1. Wide view, vanishing points and three-step are Level 2 drills.

 

Kai

Sounds like it's back to school for me . . .

Struth . . it has been awhile . . . 7-8 years.

 

Cheers

[Bones]

cheers all

sounds simple doesn,t it , i,ve done level 4 more than twice so went back from 3 step to revisit 2 step .

i was initially real dissapointed but this was coaches way of getting me over this new (to me ) problem .

i think it was more a timing thing in that i was 2 and indeed 3 stepping (t.point , apex, exit) previously but in the in between period between last school visit my speeds had all gone up on the track considerably - but - i wasn,t smart enough to figure that the timing between shifting the vision from t.p to apex then apex to exit needed to change as i was now condensing it into a shorter space in time ......

just shows how good these guys are at watching fine points (video was real help)

 

just another example i reckon of how certain problems arise dissappear then at a new pace can come back ,interestingly on the same day another rider in our group was having more or less opposite problems to me ( he was shifting his vision to the next stage too soon )

 

Hi Teg,

 

It is important to be aware when your got the timing right. As you stated, the timing changes, the quicker you go through the corner. The question is; How do you know if your timing is correct? (unless you've got an instructor on your tail ).

 

Firstly it's the $10 awareness rule, so back off the pace. Now; the following are my perceptions.

 

If I'm shifting my vision too late :-

• get a closed-in feeling,
  
• feel claustrophobic or running out of space,
  
• feel I'm going to fast and need to brake more; but once I look into the corner, feel I'm going slower,
  
• feeling of being rushed in my actions.
  

If I shift my vision too early :-

• have a feeling of waiting for something to happen,
  
• I turn in too early,
  
• tend to drift towards the corner (missing turn point).
  

If I am unsure, I will anti-drill it. Which is to say, I will shift my vision early and late on purpose. Once you have your awareness baseline you can compare this with other corners/tracks. Ie: Feeling a little rushed at the turn in point.

 

Yes, it is an evolving process. As each skill set evolves and improves, it impacts and effects others.

 

Cheers

[Jasonzilla]

Thanks for the explanation, Bones. I never thought of the effects of looking in too early, but you've solved something I've been wondering about for the longest time. I was drifting way in, and have even gone so far as to make my TP's all on the outside to fix that problem (which worked by the way). My next trackday is at the school, but the next free trackday I have, I'm going to try that "anti-drill."

[Ventodue]

Hi Teg,

 

It is important to be aware when your got the timing right. <snip>

 

Nice post, Bones. Good thoughts, well expressed. Thanks.

 

.

 

Craig