bigheadj Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 First of all let me say hello to the superbike forum members. I just have one question to ask some experienced riders of this forum. The other weekend I went to the local biker hangout on my 2004 ZX10 to hopefully meet some others to ride with for the day. I met this guy who had a ZX10 like mine except it was Orange. Anyways he asked if I would like to go ride some curves in the country...Cool I thought....I can watch and learn. Well I can't learn if I can t see the person I am learning from. This dude was fast...I'm talking FAST!!!!!! But my question is this. When cornering on my sport bike do I use the push look and lean method tuaght in the motorcycle classes or is more leaning instead of pushing...Can someone please help me with this..I would like to be able to take curves faster than what I am able to do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeF4y Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 It's pushing, plain and simple. Leaning is a by-product, and should be done, but the push is needed to initiate the turn. No push, no turn... As for riding with others and the thought that you can't learn if you can't see the guy, that's not really true. You learn more going slow than you do going fast. If you're going fast, you have too much on your mind and there are too many things to process at once and you'll get in trouble. Additionally, going slower builds understanding and confidence which also carries into the amount of fun you'll have and the amount of speed you'll build up to. Read Keith's article about 'no-brakes' (just looked for it and I can't find it. Keith, help me out here! - or I'll find it tomorrow in my archives). Pick up TOTW-II, read it and practice it. Read it again... Once more... You'll gain speed, confidence and be safer all along... Then go to one of the schools! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeF4y Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Reprinted without permission (but since it's Keith's text on Keith's forum I'm hoping it's okay)... The Fine Art of Braking By survey 100% of over 10,000 riders agree on this point: they know that if they possessed the ability and skill to get their turn entry speeds consistently right, their confidence would soar; they would feel more in control; they would be faster and they would be smoother. Here is more on why you might want to master that ability. Coasting Races In the mid ?70's I was introduced to an amazing form of ?racing?. Four or five of us would get together at the top of one of our favorite So Cal canyon descents; turn off the engines; line up across the road; heckle each other; count to three; pick up our feet without pushing off any more than was necessary to get moving and laugh and yell out insults to one another all the way down to the bottom. Most of the runs were a couple of miles long with lots of turns. That?s a coasting race. The rider who coasted the farthest and fastest (they were usually the same rider) ?won?. There weren?t any tricks, equipment mattered little, it was all you. Well, I did have one little trick--pushing the pads back into my front caliper to eliminate the pad drag. The camaraderie was elevated enormously by the fact that, unlike our usual canyon rides we could, for the most part, communicate throughout the descent. It was such a delight. Even when it went wrong and someone crashed (like me) I still have fond memories and get a warm sensation when recalling it. Strategy of Coasting Races On the technical side of things: I was immediately impressed with several aspects of this form of entertainment and a couple of those points were indelibly printed in my memory and became a part of the school over 20 years ago. The simple trick to winning a coasting race is the obvious, the rider who could maintain his momentum by using his brakes the least generally would prevail. Doing an entire run down some of the steeper roads with little or no braking took as much or more mental grip than doing it with them, this became immediately apparent in the first semi tight corner you came to. Unwilling to give up the momentum yet afraid of the speed which had accumulated, your focus and interest became laser sharp. Sure your hand would be poised over the lever and sure it took some supreme acts of willpower to keep from using brakes and sure you would make errors and have to use them but you also paid closer attention to the speeds than you normally would. The reduction of distractions like engine noise and gear changes and throttle and charging the corners with hard braking were all eliminated and it allowed you to make much finer estimates of your corner entry speeds and maintain that precious momentum. Low Noise, High Speeds After my first coasting race I realized I never would have gone through those turns as fast as I had done with no engine running, no charging and, for the most part, no brakes. It made me realize just how distracting those things really were and just how much of my attention they absorbed. One of the things I continually notice when I watch students is how erratic their turn entry speeds are. It comes from the idea they have to charge the corners and brake hard but they tend to over-brake and foul up their entry and corner speed momentum. Has this ever happened to you?. Low Speeds, Quick Times As I was driving up to Laguna Seca to do a school one day I realized that if anyone was going to overcome this self generated confusion from over-braking, the quickest route to that was riding no brakes. Once I got to the track I tried it out and rediscovered what I?d already figured out before from the coasting races, I went faster into the turns, my speed sense and judgement became sharper, I worried less about my entry speed and found that getting back to the throttle earlier was significantly easier. I thought it would be worthwhile to have the students try it out. While it is true that some tracks lend themselves to this form of sharpening your riding skills better than others, I did begin to notice a trend at different tracks. The riders who stuck with the no brakes, even after we officially switched back to using them, made more improvement in their speed and confidence than those who were ?testing? our brake pad material by charging the turns. Ignore the Instincts It?s almost as if riders feel obligated to charge turns. It?s the idea that you will go faster because of it and seems such a simple and direct route to that end but rarely works. The instinct to brake late and hard is like clubbing a female and taking her for your wife. Great plan but it isn?t going to work. I have observed many truly diligent riders who ignored the instinct and stayed with the No Brakes format knocking off seconds from their lap times even compared to when they were using the brakes. To top it off they were achieving their quicker times with only one or two gears instead of the usual thrashing through the gear box. They might be going 20 mph slower on the straights but one should pay attention to the results (improved lap times and corner speed) not your impulse to go fast on the straights. As I have said a thousand times, the brakes become more of a crutch than a tool for most riders. Someone always whines about the no-brakes riding format at school. Well, crutches are notoriously hard to put down aren?t they? Riders claim it is difficult (of course it is), that they could go faster with them (faster down the straight away, yes); that they ?had? to use them (the crutch again) and on and on. What these riders don?t realize is how satisfying it is to persevere at the exercise until you really get it, so you really can judge your entry speeds and really know you can do it. Very, very satisfying. Very, very big contribution to your riding confidence. Very! The Basic Idea The logic is flawless. Using or not using the brakes is irrelevant to the intended result of getting into the corner at the exact right speed. One either knows what that right speed is and can achieve it or they are guessing. If they are guessing they are paying more attention to it than they should have to. Guessing brings about inaccurate braking, inaccurate braking brings about rough and uncertain turn entries. Trail Braking Trail braking is a valid and useful tool for any rider at any level of riding. The warning is this: when used too often, or as a crutch to calm the fear brought on by the inability to sense speeds accurately, it not only doesn?t solve the source of the problem it makes it worse. As the pilot you must make the decision on when to let off of the brake(s). It is a complicated little piece of work with all of the other usual distractions you encounter at the turn?s entry, e.g., setting the lean, getting the line and feeling the traction. Bottom line?if you are trailing the brakes towards a well known, accurately understood speed it is a tool. Otherwise it tends to become a crutch and invites riders to ?charge? the turns, low line them, leave the throttle till late and make tricky and sometimes dangerous mid-corner steering corrections all of which could be avoided with accurate turn entry speed sensing and setting. Panic Crutch In contrast to that I see many riders who feel compelled to stab at their brakes in the last moments before entering a corner. While watching them do it, the only conclusion you can come to is that the speed was a big surprise; all of a sudden they become aware of it and it seemed too fast. This is an obvious error. They aren?t using the brake to adjust anything except their fear. In either of the above cases, an accurate sense of speed opens the door to confidence. Results Then and Now The essence and final result of any brake release for cornering remains what I said in 1980 in my first Superbike School lecture and on page 64 of the first ?A Twist fo the Wrist? book in 1982: To set the speed of the bike correctly for that place on the track (or road) so that no further changes are necessary. In other words, you get it right. Not too fast, not too slow. Braking itself is an art within the art of cornering. Your sense-of-speed is the underlying resource you have to get it right. As an exercise, no brakes riding will help improve your sense-of-speed. Do no-brakes whenever you have the opportunity and see what happens to your sense of speed and see what happens to your riding. The best part is that once you have combined a good sense of speed with the other basic skills of cornering it all begins to come together. I hope we get the chance to help sometime this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue636 Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 How much riding experience do you have? This may be a little off-topic but it's going to be difficult for you to gain the confidence you need to overcome survival reactions when you have 150+ horsepower on tap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigheadj Posted December 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 How much riding experience do you have? This may be a little off-topic but it's going to be difficult for you to gain the confidence you need to overcome survival reactions when you have 150+ horsepower on tap. Well most of my riding experience comes from dirt bikes, however; I have do some experience on sport bikes but not that much! I just want to make it known that the guys I rode with that day instructed me to ride at mine own pace and that they would wait for me if I got to far behind so I took my time but wanted to know what I could do to get faster and build confidence especially in the corners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue636 Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Take the Superbike School if you can, it will really help you. Just take it slow and easy at first, especially with a machine like yours. Read Keith's books and do some research... there is a lot to learn and plenty of time. It's good that you sound patient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigheadj Posted December 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 No doubt, I planned to take it this past year at VIR but due the hurricane I had to change plans. This year though I do plan to attend... I can't wait until the spring time so I can go out and practice and get used to my bike, thanks for the feedback guys..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 If you can't get to the school right away, start by reading Keith's book Twist of the Wrist II. There's a ton of good infrmation in it on how to become a better rider. Read the book and then next time you go out for a ride pick on thing that you would like to work on improving and try to focus on that for your ride. Next time you ride focus on something different. After a while you will get better and vecome faster as a by product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted January 10, 2005 Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 Bigheadj, There are some real differences in turning dirtbikes (weigh a lot less, go a lot slower in most instances), and turning a sportbike. Aside from the speed, just the leverage on the handlebars is vastly different. What part of the country are you in? Best, Cobie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigheadj Posted January 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Bigheadj, There are some real differences in turning dirtbikes (weigh a lot less, go a lot slower in most instances), and turning a sportbike. Aside from the speed, just the leverage on the handlebars is vastly different. What part of the country are you in? Best, Cobie I live in NC Durham to be exact, I am trying to get to the class at VIR, I was told that it was only an hour from Durham so I am doing my best to be in attendance! In the mean time I think that I will buy some books...hope to see you guys @ VIR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 If you have any questions on the books, or the other Keith Code training material, call any time--if I'm in the office, I'll talk to you, no problem. Best, CF ps--there are audio CD's, an interactive CD, and DVD of the first book (plus the 3 books of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadRunner Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Lots of seat time - ride as much as you can - even if you are not working on your riding, it will help to just get used to the sportsbike, which you have found out is a different animal to dirt bikes. Big open car parks are great too as you can go and practice manouvering at slow speeds, which if nothing else, will give you a great sense of balance with your current bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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