Which Is Overall Better?

[aslcbr600]

I just thought of something while watching isle of man TT, is it more ideal to carry a higher turn entry speed with more lean angle or slower turn entry speed with less lean angle but more throttle being applied through the turn because you have more contact patch on the tire?

 

Myself personally I think it depends on the turn, tighter turns would result better from slower entry but more drive and faster turns would result better with a higher turn entry speed. Now what about a double apex turn? I think something like that could go either way?

 

What if you are trying to pass someone in a race, which one would be more preferred?

[faffi]

WARNING: I AM NO EGGSPERT ON THESE MATTERS - I merely share what I've read from reading books written by KR, KC and more.

 

 

In the 500cc two-stroke era, the fastest way around a track was to scrub off speed going in to a corner by sliding the front then pick up the bike on the throttle just before you crashed and spin up the rear to steer out of the corner. It was also a technique that led to a bit of crashing.

 

KR didn't like to load the front, instead opting to go in slower and out faster and steer with the rear wheel. It was safer, but as time passed not fast enough; apparently, you had to be willing to also slide the front in order to win.

 

Now, the tyres have so much grip that they can brake very, very deep and carry lots of lean and yet have plenty of grip for early acceleration. They probably do slide the front a tiny bit and they do steer with a the rear a bit. In other words, the superior chassis, suspension and tyres allow current GP racers to combine late braking, high corner speed and early throttle application, something that wasn't possible at this level before. Earlier, you could go in deep, square off the corner and fire out, or you could be smoother and carry a high corner speed, but not both.

 

Still, there are variations. If you look at Stoner and Pedrosa, they will kick up their bikes on corner exit almost violently and get back hard on the throttle since their bikes are on a fatter part of the tyre. Lorenzo is smoother, making the corners longer. Both ways work, apparently, since they're always sharing the podium.

 

But there are so much more to consider than merely what's the fastest way. Tyre wear, risk management, fighting for positions - many things will be considered. Still, unless you are at a level where you are looking for the final tenth that will allow you victory instead of second place, you will be better off setting your entrance speed early and use the throttle to carry you fast around the corner. It's easier to control a rear slide than a front slide and the difference in lap times will not justify pushing the front until you are close to record lap times.

 

Deep braking can be a way to pass slower riders, especially if you can block pass them. That is, holding them out, preventing them from turning in under you and get you back out of the corner. This will hurt your lap time, but should allow you past a rider that's similarly quick to you if you time it to perfection. If you are noticeably faster, it's always safer to overtake by getting a better drive than by braking deep.

 

Oh, and IoM is a different sport compared to track racing. Very rarely do you find a great track rider making a winning performance on a road course, and vice versa.

 

Now it's time for someone with actual understanding to chime in and correct me

[aslcbr600]

Thanks for the input, I like Lorenzo's style better because it's smooth but still fast riding. It just brought up the question while watching IOM, I know it would be a culture shock if they had to actually get their body off the bike to make a turn lol I respect the guys but it's more a race of balls then skill it seems to me.

[Bullet]

I just thought of something while watching isle of man TT, is it more ideal to carry a higher turn entry speed with more lean angle or slower turn entry speed with less lean angle but more throttle being applied through the turn because you have more contact patch on the tire?

 

Myself personally I think it depends on the turn, tighter turns would result better from slower entry but more drive and faster turns would result better with a higher turn entry speed. Now what about a double apex turn? I think something like that could go either way?

 

What if you are trying to pass someone in a race, which one would be more preferred?

 

 

 

which do you think is most important? Fastest in the middle of the turn? Or fastest at the end of the next straight? thinking about these points, is it possible to define?

 

 

 

Bullet

[faffi]

It just brought up the question while watching IOM, I know it would be a culture shock if they had to actually get their body off the bike to make a turn lol I respect the guys but it's more a race of balls then skill it seems to me.

 

 

Oh, I don't know about that. It's just that they cannot go 100% like on a track, since the conditions can vary considerably from one lap to the next and because a lap is so long that nobody can remember the texture of the track down inch by inch like on a typical closed track. However, it's not like they just sit there idle. But hanging off to the extreme over bumps like these may not be the greatest idea for retaining control?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBi9IwjapQo&feature=related

 

 

[faffi]

Look at the +/- 3 min mark

 

 

 

 

Carl Fogarty comes to mind as a racer that mastered both the IoM and closed course racing.

[aslcbr600]

I just thought of something while watching isle of man TT, is it more ideal to carry a higher turn entry speed with more lean angle or slower turn entry speed with less lean angle but more throttle being applied through the turn because you have more contact patch on the tire?

 

Myself personally I think it depends on the turn, tighter turns would result better from slower entry but more drive and faster turns would result better with a higher turn entry speed. Now what about a double apex turn? I think something like that could go either way?

 

What if you are trying to pass someone in a race, which one would be more preferred?

 

 

 

which do you think is most important? Fastest in the middle of the turn? Or fastest at the end of the next straight? thinking about these points, is it possible to define?

 

 

 

Bullet

 

 

 

 

I would think more speed through the turn is most important, you can always brake a little deeper at the end of the next straight instead of relying on how much ground to make up pinning the throttle on the drive out of the corner? I think the other factor would be the layout of the track, if you have really tight turns you can only carry so much speed before running wide or off track so that would make you want to be faster at the end of the next straight.

 

 

 

 

[Bullet]

Thanks for the input, I like Lorenzo's style better because it's smooth but still fast riding. It just brought up the question while watching IOM, I know it would be a culture shock if they had to actually get their body off the bike to make a turn lol I respect the guys but it's more a race of balls then skill it seems to me.

 

 

They do get their bodies off, you just don't see the riders pushing to 100% of mid corner speed, (margin for error and all that), and they also have to race for a long, long time.

 

these guys that do this are exceptional riders, and it's incerdibly difficult to be that good, and that fast for so long. it is however, a different skill to short course racing, and just as short course racing takes years to develop, it's incredibly competitive now and these guys focus on being amazing road racers. Dave Jefferies was a great short course and TT Racer too.

 

 

Bullet

[aslcbr600]

It just brought up the question while watching IOM, I know it would be a culture shock if they had to actually get their body off the bike to make a turn lol I respect the guys but it's more a race of balls then skill it seems to me.

 

 

Oh, I don't know about that. It's just that they cannot go 100% like on a track, since the conditions can vary considerably from one lap to the next and because a lap is so long that nobody can remember the texture of the track down inch by inch like on a typical closed track. However, it's not like they just sit there idle. But hanging off to the extreme over bumps like these may not be the greatest idea for retaining control?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBi9IwjapQo&feature=related

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is true, their bikes wiggle a lot in those surfaces without a lot of lean angle. They still manage to carry a lot of speed though, you think they are being reserved on those bikes, or being reserved to the conditions? Even with my sarcastic comment of lean angle I still think being their average speed of 127mph riding pretty hard through closed off roads lol.

[faffi]

Lap record is closer to 132 mph. And they carry little lean most of the time simply because they do not have power to go fast enough to lean more. At the semi-slow sections, they lean well over. In the slow stuff, they usually do not lean that far because it's so easy to misjudge and fall off and so little time to gain. KR used to say that it's the slow corners that will get you, the fast corners where you make up time.

 

Watch this and come back and say they do not carry lean or ride very hard

 

[Bullet]

I just thought of something while watching isle of man TT, is it more ideal to carry a higher turn entry speed with more lean angle or slower turn entry speed with less lean angle but more throttle being applied through the turn because you have more contact patch on the tire?

 

Myself personally I think it depends on the turn, tighter turns would result better from slower entry but more drive and faster turns would result better with a higher turn entry speed. Now what about a double apex turn? I think something like that could go either way?

 

What if you are trying to pass someone in a race, which one would be more preferred?

 

 

 

which do you think is most important? Fastest in the middle of the turn? Or fastest at the end of the next straight? thinking about these points, is it possible to define?

 

 

 

Bullet

 

 

 

 

I would think more speed through the turn is most important, you can always brake a little deeper at the end of the next straight instead of relying on how much ground to make up pinning the throttle on the drive out of the corner? I think the other factor would be the layout of the track, if you have really tight turns you can only carry so much speed before running wide or off track so that would make you want to be faster at the end of the next straight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

so, if you've a bike at huge lean angles, (I.e carrying maximum speed possible), how much hard gas can you roll on? Given speed carried off a turn is multiplied down the straight, would it be possible exit of a turn is more key for great laptimes than rushing into the turn as hard as possible?

 

What do you think given this information? Given the compromise, which would you trade

 

 

Bullet

 

 

 

[aslcbr600]

That's a good point, I didn't think about it that way! When you say it like that I would much rather have the drive out of the corners rather then maximum corner entry speed and very little throttle roll on.

[lukem]

I just thought of something while watching isle of man TT, is it more ideal to carry a higher turn entry speed with more lean angle or slower turn entry speed with less lean angle but more throttle being applied through the turn because you have more contact patch on the tire?

 

Myself personally I think it depends on the turn, tighter turns would result better from slower entry but more drive and faster turns would result better with a higher turn entry speed. Now what about a double apex turn? I think something like that could go either way?

 

What if you are trying to pass someone in a race, which one would be more preferred?

 

 

 

which do you think is most important? Fastest in the middle of the turn? Or fastest at the end of the next straight? thinking about these points, is it possible to define?

 

 

 

Bullet

 

 

 

 

I would think more speed through the turn is most important, you can always brake a little deeper at the end of the next straight instead of relying on how much ground to make up pinning the throttle on the drive out of the corner? I think the other factor would be the layout of the track, if you have really tight turns you can only carry so much speed before running wide or off track so that would make you want to be faster at the end of the next straight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

so, if you've a bike at huge lean angles, (I.e carrying maximum speed possible), how much hard gas can you roll on? Given speed carried off a turn is multiplied down the straight, would it be possible exit of a turn is more key for great laptimes than rushing into the turn as hard as possible?

 

What do you think given this information? Given the compromise, which would you trade

 

 

Bullet

 

 

 

 

Yep, there are a couple of turns on the TT course where after exiting they won't roll off for miles (out of Creg ny Baa or down cronk-y voddy straight for example). I know from my short circuit racing that every extra kph I can carry out of a turn is carried down the straight and always gives me better lap times. I'm talking about a straight less than 1km in length, let alone 3-4 miles!

[ktk_ace]

broadcasted racing imho is the top 1%

 

extremes being used are very normal and safety... seconded (because winning is always top priority)

 

 

 

 

road riding emplasises on safety so... i'll stick to the safer techniques written in the books and DVDs

 

 

[Bullet]

great job guys, you got it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You'll have heard slow in, fast out before no doubt. In actual fact, you want fast in, fast out, but if you have to trade one over the other, you'll always compromise in/mid turn to ensure you get that fast out for exactly what the reasons we've discussed in the thread.

 

 

Bullet

 

 

 

[faffi]

For those who have listened to Guy Martin commenting on his CBR1000 record lap (I didn't link to it but readily available on Utube) he say that what you want is the drive out, that braking a bit early - or just drop back a gear and stay off the brakes - doesn't impact your lap times much. Same with slow corners; just get through them unless you're fighting for tenths because it's so easy to misjudge your speed, especially after long stints around 200 mph.