Begginer Question

[hothead]

Suppose that you come in too fast in a decreasing radius corner......Is it correct to use the countersteering to pull back the bike to the corner if you already are in extreme lean angle? Is it correct to use countersteering when you are already inside the corner?

[Green Knight]

I guess that all depends on when you notice you're going in too hot... If you notice it right away you can just stay off the gas and scrub off some speed while turning because you do lose a lot of speed while turning if you're not on the gas at all.

 

You could trail break into the corner and try to scrub off speed that way and get back on the gas out of it...

 

If you notice you're going too fast when its time to hit the appex... well all I can say is turn in and try it. If you give up and run off the track you'll most likely go down and lose a lot of possistions if not be compleatly out of the race. You might as well try to take the corner and see if you can make it. What have you got to lose?

[JeF4y]

You're getting lost in the terminology. Countersteering is a fact. If you're steering the bike, you can't 'not' countersteer.

 

If your line is bad due to speed/entry/whatever, you will have no choice but to make some sort of correction.

 

The problem with coming into a corner too hot is that it compounds the errors you're going to make. When people come in too hot, typically they turn WAY too early because their brain tells them to, and they screw up the exit terribly which requires additional lean angle and steering inputs. A decreasing radius turn only makes the situation worse yet.

 

Decreasing radius turns (Keith, correct me if I'm wrong as I don't have the material in front of me, but I'm going off what I personally do) will most often times require 2 turn points. One on the way in, and one at the second 'turn' (the decreasing radius part). There are times when you can ride a line and make one turn out of the 2 turn decreasing radius, but it really depends on the turn setup.

 

To answer your question, no, you should not be making additional steering inputs once you're in a turn. However, there are obviously exceptions to this. If the corner tightens, you will need to adjust. If you blow the entrance or apex, you may need to adjust. Steering changes while leaned are quite possible, but can have very undesirable results when poorly executed (read - no throttle control, too much lean angle, braking, moving around on the bike).

 

I'm not sure if I helped you here or confused you... Let me know...

[Goannaman]

While I in all my slow riding glory usuall end up with two separate turn points, what Twist of the Wrist says is that Double Apex corners require two separate turn points, decreasing radius corners require a later initial turn point.

[JeF4y]

I thought it was in TOTWII, but as mentioned by "correct me if I'm wrong", I wasn't sure... If the book says a later entry point, then that's correct. However, there will always be exceptions to it. I've been through MANY decreasing radius turns which you must get through the first turn to execute the second...

[stuman]

I think I know what you mean about the two turn points in a decreasing radius turn Jeff and I agree. You kind of need one to tell you to start bending it in and then another, deeper one, for your final input (kind of the true turn point) to set your line for the exit.

[supernouht]

if you're comming in too fast just downshift and gas it and get the back end to slide way out and then plant your knee slider into the road to keep your bike from laying down and then you'll turn really sharp!!, hahaha no don't listen to me you'll kill yourself!! (although it seems to work for kenny roberts sr.)

[supernouht]

actually i do have something usefull to say...well i think i do at least! sometimes this happens to me, i'll space out and won't slow down enough for a corner which is a little frightening the first few times you do it, and there are 2 ways that a beginner can handle it basically, either push on the inside bar a little more (countersteer) and just lean more and get the bike to turn more sharply than you are usually comfortable with forcing your bike to do.....the other is just to give up and start using the brakes while you stand the bike up and run off the outside of the corner and stop.....well i've done the first thing a few times and it's worked and by bike DID turn sharper than it seemed like it could!!! and this was a great confidence builder!...i've done the second thing once and it sucked, i ran to the outside and slid in the dirt and hit a curb and messed up my bike and my knee and my jacket, if i were in the situation again i would have just tried to turn sharper and stuck with it, so unless the outside of a corner just has a really nice flat runout when you can ride and not fall i'd say yes countersteer and lean more and turn charper and maybe you'll surprise yourself with what you can do!

 

as for the "countersteering" thing i've noticed that on my bike which has light steering, i will turn the bars the oppostite way i want to turn and for like 1/8th of a second it will start going the way i turned, then it becomes off balance and leans over the opposte way i turned the bars and the lean will make the bike turn, now once i am actually leaned over and turning as long as i am making small movements my bike will actually turn the direction that i turn the bars (like a car as in not countersteering!) but if i make more agressive movements while leaned over it will change the lean angle of the bike and overpower any non countersteering movements i am making andthereby switch back to a state of countersteering .....pay close attention next time you ride and you may see what i am talking about.....i've never ridden a bike with a sidecar, but i imagine that sidecar motorcycles have little or no countersteering action going on because they don't lean! so if this is true that means that if you are not affectiong your lean angle a bike will steer like a car.....except that it does affect your lean angle heh....but sometimes it doesn't....like when you're going 5mph it will steer like a car because you're not leaning ....it's really a weird thing! it's amazing how our brains just get used to this complicated action and we don't even realise what we are doing!! but if we fully understand it i belive we can command a greater and more confident controll over the bike, good day -David