Which Peg To Weigh?

[tawheed]

Hey everyone,

 

I took level I at laguna seca last year. I read somewhere once that Kevin Schwantz would always weigh the outside peg through a corner for maximum traction, it seems to have stuck in my head and that's how I always ride.

 

That is, when approaching a corner on the brakes, I'm already pushing down hard with my outside foot, through the corner up right til the end of the turn..

 

I'm not sure whether this is right or wrong, from all the guy's I've spoken to who are faster than me, most seem to be weighing the INSIDE peg..

 

IS there a definitive answer to this or is it just a matter of prefrence?

 

Any feedback will be appreciated...

 

Here are some shots .. excuse the watermark.. still waiting for the acutal images..

 

 

[JeF4y]

Level II and III is your answer

 

(and it'll fix that crossed-up body position too!)

 

You are correct in your practice, by 'locking' yourself into the bike using the outside foot/leg/knee.

[superdave88]

Crossed-up body position? I've studdied thousands of pics wondering about proper form and body position and, from amatuers to pros., I can't discern right from wrong only different. Mladin puts his head way down and Duhamel points his chin. Let's talk about this somemore.

[senfo]

Funny that you say that because somebody just mentioned how Collin Edwards likes to get his head way down, which is causing his front tire to wear more than his teammate, Rossi. From what I understand, it was suggested that he try to get a little more use out of the rear tire.

 

But you're right, Mladin does seem to stay way down. It's working for him, but then again, he's not in MotoGP, either .

[JeF4y]

your body should really be parallel to the bike. If you look in this pic and draw a line along the riders spine, you can see how 'crossed-up' it is on the bike.

 

People forget that the overwhelming majority of the body's weight is ABOVE the waistline. Drop that chest down, lead with your head and be parallel to the bike. Put your head where the mirror was. You'll use less lean angle and be a HELL of a lot more comfortable/stable.

 

That said, I've seen many many professional riders (Doohan, Duhammel, etc) who ride 'crossed-up'. They carry INSANE lean angles, and still manage to go fast. I don't know how they do it. I personally run out of tire too fast when I ride that way.

[superdave88]

I see what your saying now and agree. I catch myself doing the same thing and when I square up, that is hang not just my ass and knee off, but my whole body, I go faster with less lean angle. I think crossed-up is right, but the other direction. That is hang off further and hold the bike out away. At least on medium speed corners. Keep the bike as verticle as possible. I wish I could be more articulate. I hope what I'm trying to say is right.

[Balistic]

I have talked about this on several forums specifically about traction. I weight the inside peg because it is under me, the outside is not.

 

I feel most guys who say they weight the outside peg are doing the pickup drill. If you try to weight the outside peg you inadvertently pick the bike up which does increase traction. Weighting the peg does not increase traction.

[supernouht]

If you read on this website about the no bs bike it will tell you that putting more weight on one peg or the other does not noticeably affect the steering of the bike, I have tried this while riding with no hands down a hill, put all my weight on one peg and the bike just goes straight. So i think the answer to the "which peg to weight" question is that the pegs are there to hold you stable on the bike, not to steer with, just put you feet on them and use them to hold your body and don't worry about trying to twist the bike from the bottom, you have no leverage over the bike down there, that is why moving your upper body weight works so well...because it is high up and has the most leverage. Think about a rod stuck in the ground, if you want to change the angle that it is pointing where would you grab it? If you grab it at the base you're going to have to use extreme force to get any movement, however if you grab it at the tip you may be able to lean the rod over with one finger! Your body weight will have a great effect on the lean angle at the top of the bike and very little on the bottom. Try getting a 50lb lead helmet and you'll have great results haha jk!

[JeF4y]

I think the biggest confusion on this topic is the term "weight".

 

Physically, you are GOING to apply weight to the inside peg because that's what supporting your body. You simply can't avoid this.

 

HOWEVER, you can (and should) LOCK yourself in using your outside leg.

 

My speculation is that Keith termed this "weighting" because it was the easiest way to convey "add pressure/push down/lock yourself in" in his writings. (I could be wrong).

 

If you actually add body weight to the outside peg, you will pick the bike up.

 

Now before anyone argues this with me, do this... Take 2 scales. put them a little wider than shoulder-width apart. stand one foot on each. Get into a racer crouch. Move your body to the left to simulate a turn. Read the scales. Now see how much weight you can transfer to the right without physically moving your body...

[supernouht]

jef4y, i agree with everything you said basically, but i think that if you are conciously trying to put more weight on one peg or the other you are going to accomplish little or nothing usefull, for example you can take one of your feet off of the peg, stand up and move your whole body over onto one peg and with just the lightest touch on the opposing side handlebar you can keep the bike upright. i ride with no hands downhill whenever i can and just put it in neutral and use the rear brake with my foot and at first i tried steering by trying to stand up on one peg ot the other a little, but nothing usefull happened, what i have found works is to shift my whole upper body over to one side and then twist the bike so that it lines up with my body using the inside of my outside thigh, i can actually do some tight corners at low speed this way, this is because i'm exerting force on the top of the bike not the bottom.

but yes when you are in a corner most of your body weight will be on the inside peg if your posture is correct for those who need a simple answer to the original question......but this is more of an effect than a cause, anyway, later

[weareone]

I am also interested to know what body parts to use to lock myself onto the bike while cornering...

currently i practice the inner of my outside thigh and outside peg and seat... is this correct? i do admit i have a tendency to weigh the inner peg during mid corner. answers. Keith Code says weigh the outside peg for more leverage to countersteer but did not say which peg to weigh in mid corner. Views anyone??

 

take note: mid corner= when steering is completed and you are at the desired lean angle.

[M1Combat]

Maybe you guys aren't accounting for centrifugal force?

 

Riding a bike is like giant slalom (or that's how Lee Parks put it anyway). Which ski do they ride? The outside one. With one "G" of lateral force it would become difficult to put a large percentage of your weight on the inside peg alone. I tend to think that a lot of the support of your weight comes from the inner thigh of the outside leg. I tend to not have hardly any weight on the inside peg at all. Most seems to naturally be in the outside peg and just above my knee/inner thigh on the outside leg. I tend to ride with my head low/forward/inside... Typically to the point that I couldn't see over the tank (or in my case my airbox...) if I tried.

 

Notice Rossi coming into corners... He sometimes doesn't even have his inside foot on the peg.

[supernouht]

Hmm interesting observation M1combat, I hadn't thought of the G forces on your body like that, personally I don't give much thought to which peg I am putting the most weight on in a corner, I just use them to hold my feet heh! Actually as you said about Valantino Rossi, if I actually wanted to I could probably take both feet off the pegs mid corner and hold myself on the bike with my legs alone and not have it affect my ability to hold the corner much if at all. As I originally said, I think it's a mute point, the pegs are just there so you have somewhere to put your feet.

[JeF4y]

M1 - Very compelling point! Thank you for bringing it out. I'm rethinking my logic now... lol...

 

Supernought - I normally detest people who correct grammar and spelling on forums, but will break my own rule here as you touched a pet peeve of mine (like that makes a difference). The word you're looking for is "MOOT" not "MUTE". I.e., "that's a moot point" not a "mute point".

 

Cheers

[supernouht]

hahaha oh thenks jef4y, i was actually wondering if i was spelling that right as i was writing it

[JeF4y]

LOL.. no problem... now you know

[Whistle]

Hello All,

 

New poster here. I find your forum discussions extremely informative and valuable. I have been riding for two months after a 25 year "hiatus" so I'm trying to understand proper riding rather than just winging it. I plan on attending an advanced riding course ASAP but the availability here is somewhat limited so this site is extremely helpful at this moment.

 

FYI, I have been coaching skiing for the last 25 years and I find one can establish many parallels between the two disciplines. Obviously, the biggest difference is the weight of the equipment I ride on: I am sure my movement pattern would change dramatically if my skis weighed 400 pounds!

 

However there are a few constants: first, we are all subjected to similar forces, both lateral and fore-aft, which pretty much affect us in similar way. Secondly both sports deal primarily with the interaction between the Center of Mass (i-e your body) and the Base of Support (i-e the skis or the bike).

 

I would like to add just a few comments regarding some observations on previous posts and then seek a few answers from you guys.

 

M1 mention that in skiing most of the G force is exerted on the outside leg and he is right. However, in order to deal with these forces one has to move to the inside of a turn first. A ski racer does not ?put? his weight on the outside ski, nor does he actually push on the outside ski (at speed): but he does ?feel ? the weight on the outside merely because the G forces and trying to push his foot back up towards him. Hope this makes sense.

 

I think the confusion lies in the wording, I-e weighing a peg versus pushing off in order to move your body to the inside.

 

Now to my question: how do you move into a turn coming in from a straight line versus coming in from a previous turn?

 

Do you feel you have to push more from the outside peg coming from a straight ?

 

In a set of left- to- right turns do you feel more two footed and use the ?flex? of the bike to cross over?

Hope I?m not boring all of you with this diatribe.

 

Cheers,

 

Francois

[supernouht]

well i think basically if you're comming into a high speed corner you wanna get your head, shoulders and butt over to the inside before the turn (low speed tight corners you can stay upright and lean the bike under you) however you can get your body mass over to the inside most quickly and comfortably for YOU i think is the right way....everyone moves a little different you know? in my opinion it should just come naturally if you know basically what you're suppose to do ....also keep your spine parallel to the bike if you can, good luck

[Kevin Kane]

Francois,

In a turn, try pushing with your outside leg and your inside arm simultaneously. It is the easiest way to initiate a turn.

 

Kevin

[M1Combat]

Whistle - I'm mostly referring to the giant slalom version of skiing and mostly mid corner. Not specifically turn entry or exit as such, although they do tend to lead with the inside "bar" .

 

WRT transition, "I" tend to throw the bike back and forth between my legs with my legs. When the bike is in the center, I tend to have both knees on the tank (errr, uh, the frame I suppose on a conventional type of bike ) when it's upright between corners and as I add lean angle I hang off. This is only for right/left flicks between two sharp corners. Coming into a corner from a straight I hang off before turn in. I try to hang off before I get on the brakes, but someimes that's not the way it goes so I hang off while braking. I try to exert as little pressure on the bike itself as I can, and mostly it's a combination of throwing myself to the inside while driving the bike to the outside. I'm probably not as smooth with it as I should be, but it "seems" to work .

[Whistle]

Thanks for the input guys. We are heading off to Seattle this weekend for our first ever track day. I am sure we are in for some great learning about cornering. Hope to meet some of you guys out there.

 

Regards,

 

Francois

[archon]

A difference between skiing and riding that may be relevant is that in skiing your ski is the contact patch, and it is directly connected to your leg, which is going to be "inside" the foot with respect to the corner. On a bike, things are different. The contact patches are the tyres, these are what are turning the bike, not your foot and leg. Your foot and leg are going to be above these points. So I think Jef4y was right the first time... trying to "weight" the outside foot is going to create a torque around a pivot point, the pivot point being the contact patches of the tyres, and is going to want to pick the bike up, out of the turn. This is quite distinct from "pointing your toes" in order to lock your knee into the tank... in this case, the amout of force you apply outwards with your toes on the peg is going to be exactly balanced by the amount of fource you apply inwards with your knee on the tank.

[sjy120]

I having come from riding and racing dirt bikes for years , always and still do weight the outside peg.

I find in the wet its especially good as it lets you keep the bike more upright if its really slippery.

 

In most cases i find i push down on my outer peg sort of wedging my leg between the peg and the tank and thus it helps me in the turn and as you come out of the turn i push my knee into the tank and it helps move you back onto the centre of the bike.

[racer]

I'm very reluctant to "weigh" in on riding technique...however...

 

What exactly are we talking about?

 

First, snow skis....it's all about the edges. In the middle of a GS turn ALL of my weight is on the outside ski's inside edge...if it is my intention to keep turning. My inside ski has NO weight and actually does not even touch the snow. If it does, it is a distraction as I might "catch an edge" or cross tips. Bad deal.

 

Turning is accomplished because of something called "sidecut" in the ski which allows the ski to "flex" as it is rolled (as in yaw, pitch and roll) (or rotated around the z-axis) onto it's edge creating a curved ski/edge aginst the surface of the snow. Now the bottom line here (ha ha) the foot bone's connected directly to the ski bone by boot and binding. Though there is some cushion in the boot, and some give in the binding to absorb a certain level of shock (shock absorber) hence why more advanced (read faster) skiiers adjust their shock absorbers tighter to avoid premature release. And we all want to avoid ...that. However, relatively speaking, it's a fairly direct connection. Foot to ski. Weight is transferred directly to one ski then forward or back/left or right by a triangular base of the foot. Great analogy for more lean angle, more curve, more turn. Sounds like a tire to me. Except my foot's not in the tire. While turning, the analogy is about inside/outside edge vs inside/outside peg.

 

Ok, here I go out on a limb. I am NOT a cornering guru.

 

First, I want to define a difference between weight and pushing. My definitions for my post. Weight is a condition of mass plus force. ie. gravity and centrifuge. Pushing is an ACTION for which we all know there is an equal and opposite REACTION.

 

QUERY: If you push against something do you not need to be "braced" aginst something else to counter the reaction? So, if you're pushing on the outside peg, what else are you pushing against?

 

I gotta go with Willie, et al on weighting the outside peg will tend to "stand up" the bike or decrease lean angle, etc.

 

Weight is being created as a condition of centrifugal force and gravity. Centrifugal force creating lateral gravity or G's. Mass is divided basically between down and side creating an angle of force (or weight) to the ground essentially parallel with the bike. (I hope)

 

(I can't think about factors of acceleration, center of gravity, center of mass or angular momentum. Or why gyroscopic precession works...it just does. Which is really cool.)

 

After I have initiated a turn and am back on the gas and the bike is tracking a curve. I attempt to keep my weight evenly distributed side-to-side through the middle of the bike whether on the pegs or the tank or the seat unless I want to change what the bike is doing. None of my weight is on the bars, none of it ever was. But that's me.

 

Forgive my long windedness but it all seemed so unclear to me.

[racer]

OK...perfect example of why one should pause to proof read, re-read or just meditate and think before hitting the old send button.

 

This is embarassing, but...upon further consideration, I need to add a caveat and perhaps a retraction.

 

"Essentially parallel" means like, less than say maybe roughly 15 degrees out of phase or away from parallel with the bike, and perhaps the bigger that angle the more "weight" will be transferred to one side (peg) or the other? ie. the more you hang off, the more weight you transfer to the outside? Anybody feel free to comment on that one. I'm just tryin' to cover my butt here....

 

Since switching to 2-stroke GP bikes I hang off much less than I did when I raced four strokes. And on a 125 I hardly hang off at all, so forgive my alzheimer's. I'm so confused.

 

I'm thinkin' I might be havin' a bit 'o weight on that outside peg, mate.

 

But, dudes, that's just me. I do recall weighting the inside peg to help initiate a bit 'o slide, or weighting the outside peg to correct said slide but that was lifetime's ago. And WAY more attention than I have to spend these days. This is why I stick to the technical stuff. It's safer. Nobody can argue with a calibrated micrometer.