faffi Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 What do you make of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchase Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Makes sense to me. While his approach for keeping the rear stable is a lot of work he does not have the lag of the engine spooling up and can get more usable power down faster. He's obviously done a lot of thinking about how the machine itself works. Quite brilliant actually as even small refinements can gain you a fraction here and a fraction there. All those fractions add up over the course of a race. While it makes perfect sense you won't find me trying that any time soon. He's using his huge leftover in his $10 of attention budget to doing all the work of modulating the throttle and clutch and constantly sampling the result. Most mere mortals like me use close to the full $10 of attention during braking and corner entry without enough leftover attention to do something that requires such a delicate touch and constant "feel" of what the bike is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Does that mean it would make sense to gradually build speed, but no faster than that you can focus on every aspect of cornering until things become automated, instead of running on the "I'm scared" threshold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchase Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Does that mean it would make sense to gradually build speed, but no faster than that you can focus on every aspect of cornering until things become automated, instead of running on the "I'm scared" threshold? That's a good question. In Twist of the Wrist II Keith describes that by riding at 75% of your limit to avoid survival reactions / fear. I personally find this rather helpful as it gives me time to absorb and process information as I am riding and know what's working and what's not working. I have seen others who ride at 100% all the time and some of them make it work and some of them are not so lucky and end up crashing a lot. On the Mladin technique. If a professional rider says somethings "hard work" I certainly will take his word for it. Perhaps many many years from now when complete perfection becomes "automatic" for me that might be something to explore. But that's a long way off. I think there's a lot more speed to be gained by getting everything right in the long run before pulling out the specialized tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 He's using his huge leftover in his $10 of attention budget to doing all the work of modulating the throttle and clutch and constantly sampling the result. I'm curious just how much easier the newer electronic packages have made this Tyler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchase Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 He's using his huge leftover in his $10 of attention budget to doing all the work of modulating the throttle and clutch and constantly sampling the result. I'm curious just how much easier the newer electronic packages have made this Tyler That's actually an interesting point. The MV Agusta F3 has the ability for the rider to adjust the amount of engine braking and a few other throttle related parameters which might help with that a bit. There's probably more bikes that have that option but I can't think of any off hand. As for the TC on most bikes all it does these days is retard the spark. TC would make that situation worse rather than better. You would have the TC adding to the delay of getting the engine RPM's up if it detected any kind of sliding or if the lean angle sensor got in its "oh no!" range. If I understand correctly he's applying throttle and slipping the clutch to keep the engine speed synced up to the wheel speed almost like a long lasting rev matched downshift. If you REALLY wanted some cool electronics stick that into an electronic system! With the clutch for some riders being a redundant control an electronically assisted one would be interesting if they could get it right. Some of the new Italian bikes have an Auto blipper for downshifts and a quick shifter for upshifts. With an electronic assisted clutch synced into the bikes TC system it would be like having a sequential manual gearbox and much better TC and quicker on the gas time exiting corners. That would certainly translate into more attention spent elsewhere and perhaps better lap times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I liked his comment about getting all of the downshifting done in one hit, and then having the clutch all the way out with the engine and wheel speeds matched before he turns it in. That's also my goal, but of course I am not doing the fancy clutch + throttle rev matching. At my level there is enough weight on the rear wheel that I can do my downshifting early in the braking zone, dump the clutch way before turn in and let the slipper handle it. I find this has to happen early because if I wait too late the slipper might not reengage fully until after I have started to turn which really can make a mess of things, with the sudden little pulse of back-torque engine braking after I am already off the front brake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchase Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I liked his comment about getting all of the downshifting done in one hit, and then having the clutch all the way out with the engine and wheel speeds matched before he turns it in. That's also my goal, but of course I am not doing the fancy clutch + throttle rev matching. At my level there is enough weight on the rear wheel that I can do my downshifting early in the braking zone, dump the clutch way before turn in and let the slipper handle it. I find this has to happen early because if I wait too late the slipper might not reengage fully until after I have started to turn which really can make a mess of things, with the sudden little pulse of back-torque engine braking after I am already off the front brake. Never realized that you had to "time" your slipper clutch releases with the actual turn. Cool tidbit there. Does it just keep slipping when you start your throttle roll on? Since I don't have the fancy stuff on my bike I learned to rev match. When I added braking at the same time I found that it completely freed up my attention heading into the turn. I could brake and downshift much later and there were not two things to think about. Currently I ride "by the seat of my pants" and downshift and listen to the engine revs to determine the gearing. Eventually I want to get to the state where I know that Turn 4 I need to drop 3 gears shift shift shift very deep into the corner. A slipper clutch in that case though would come in handy in case I get it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 I liked his comment about getting all of the downshifting done in one hit, and then having the clutch all the way out with the engine and wheel speeds matched before he turns it in. That's also my goal, but of course I am not doing the fancy clutch + throttle rev matching. At my level there is enough weight on the rear wheel that I can do my downshifting early in the braking zone, dump the clutch way before turn in and let the slipper handle it. I find this has to happen early because if I wait too late the slipper might not reengage fully until after I have started to turn which really can make a mess of things, with the sudden little pulse of back-torque engine braking after I am already off the front brake. Never realized that you had to "time" your slipper clutch releases with the actual turn. Cool tidbit there. Does it just keep slipping when you start your throttle roll on? No, it would never slip in any scenario where you were accelerating, even slightly. It is the back torque in the driveline that activates the slipper. But I find that when it is slipping because of a big mismatch between wheel speed and engine speed, then there is very little engine braking at all, but at a certain point as you are slowing down and the two get to be nearly matched the clutch reengages and the engine speed has to rise a bit, producing a momentary increase in engine braking. Better to have all of that happen before you turn in, so get the downshifting done early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchase Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 No, it would never slip in any scenario where you were accelerating, even slightly. It is the back torque in the driveline that activates the slipper. But I find that when it is slipping because of a big mismatch between wheel speed and engine speed, then there is very little engine braking at all, but at a certain point as you are slowing down and the two get to be nearly matched the clutch reengages and the engine speed has to rise a bit, producing a momentary increase in engine braking. Better to have all of that happen before you turn in, so get the downshifting done early. YellowDuck. Thanks for the explanation. I have a track bike I intend to use this year that has a slipper clutch in it and I plan to experiment around with it just to better understand how it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 I upgraded my track bike with a slipper clutch a number of years ago but quickly found that it's a tool with limitations and not a solution per se. You can still get rear wheel hop with a slipper clutch if you overload it; at least the one I had installed on my Ducati. I quickly returned to matching revs to gearing to the extent that I could and it became more of a safety feature when I went into a corner a bit too hot for my comfort zone. There were many times after that I forgot I even had one in the bike. Rain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 He's using his huge leftover in his $10 of attention budget to doing all the work of modulating the throttle and clutch and constantly sampling the result. I'm curious just how much easier the newer electronic packages have made this Tyler That's actually an interesting point. The MV Agusta F3 has the ability for the rider to adjust the amount of engine braking and a few other throttle related parameters which might help with that a bit. There's probably more bikes that have that option but I can't think of any off hand. As for the TC on most bikes all it does these days is retard the spark. TC would make that situation worse rather than better. You would have the TC adding to the delay of getting the engine RPM's up if it detected any kind of sliding or if the lean angle sensor got in its "oh no!" range. If I understand correctly he's applying throttle and slipping the clutch to keep the engine speed synced up to the wheel speed almost like a long lasting rev matched downshift. If you REALLY wanted some cool electronics stick that into an electronic system! With the clutch for some riders being a redundant control an electronically assisted one would be interesting if they could get it right. Some of the new Italian bikes have an Auto blipper for downshifts and a quick shifter for upshifts. With an electronic assisted clutch synced into the bikes TC system it would be like having a sequential manual gearbox and much better TC and quicker on the gas time exiting corners. That would certainly translate into more attention spent elsewhere and perhaps better lap times. Thats stock TC/electronics for you, its geared for insurance claims and safety Get up to par on a race grade customizable TC/electronics unit and you will be plowing thru corners and conserving at least 15% of your tires , safety be damned LOL (its race grade,its meant to be all out ,nannying your mistakes is just a bonus but dont really count on it ) As for inline 4's... MOST 600/1000CC fully-faired supersportbikes are low on the TORQUE sweetspot hence the drive/rev matching needed. (exceptions will be the S1000r but its much more streetbike than sportbike) the 4 wheel racing industry have this thing (i dunno what its actually called, any 4 wheel enthutiasts can chime in ??) that uses GPS to map a certain circuit and change engine/electronic characteristics for the car on certain parts of the circuit -eg straight = all out power / mode A for maximum acceleration/top speed -eg multiple low speed turns = reduced engine power / mode B for maximum control + tire conservation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchase Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Thats stock TC/electronics for you, its geared for insurance claims and safety Get up to par on a race grade customizable TC/electronics unit and you will be plowing thru corners and conserving at least 15% of your tires , safety be damned LOL (its race grade,its meant to be all out ,nannying your mistakes is just a bonus but dont really count on it ) As for inline 4's... MOST 600/1000CC fully-faired supersportbikes are low on the TORQUE sweetspot hence the drive/rev matching needed. (exceptions will be the S1000r but its much more streetbike than sportbike) the 4 wheel racing industry have this thing (i dunno what its actually called, any 4 wheel enthutiasts can chime in ??) that uses GPS to map a certain circuit and change engine/electronic characteristics for the car on certain parts of the circuit -eg straight = all out power / mode A for maximum acceleration/top speed -eg multiple low speed turns = reduced engine power / mode B for maximum control + tire conservation That's certainly true. I can't wait to see where we will end up after 10 years of evolution and more performance aware systems coming into the marketplace. The S1000RR's TC and power management is a great start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchase Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I upgraded my track bike with a slipper clutch a number of years ago but quickly found that it's a tool with limitations and not a solution per se. You can still get rear wheel hop with a slipper clutch if you overload it; at least the one I had installed on my Ducati. I quickly returned to matching revs to gearing to the extent that I could and it became more of a safety feature when I went into a corner a bit too hot for my comfort zone. There were many times after that I forgot I even had one in the bike. Rain Kevin. Thanks also quite helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 On the subject of minimizing rear wheel slide/hop, turning the idle up a bit on your bike can help, so the revs do not drop so low when you are off the gas/holding in the clutch. Do it in small increments (maybe 100rpm at a time) and ride at a reduced pace at first to get the feel of it, so it doesn't surprise you and get you into corners a little faster than you expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 the 4 wheel racing industry have this thing (i dunno what its actually called, any 4 wheel enthutiasts can chime in ??) that uses GPS to map a certain circuit and change engine/electronic characteristics for the car on certain parts of the circuit I know for certain that MotoGP use's GPS based mapping for their traction control and engine management systems, and who knows what else honestly. I'm pretty sure WSBK uses it as well but I'd have to go re read some articles on R.R.W. testing WSBK spec Ducati as for the evolution making it to the marketplace, the S1000RR HP4 comes with GPS adjustable traction and engine mapping as well as GPS adjustable dynamic suspension, so its already there in somewhat limited availability Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Wow, that should be illegal...for the same reason that movable aerodynamic components are illegal in formula 1 auto racing (except of course for DRS). What does it mean now to find the right setup, if the "setup" is adjusting itself every 10 m, with no input from the rider? Whoever has the best computer algorithms wins. Blech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted February 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 The programmer is very important these days, and bikes are easier to ride close to the limit than ever before. However, finding an advantage is probably harder than ever. Where Agostini only had a couple of other factory bikes to contend, the current playing field is pretty even. So these days you need an excellent programmer and the ability to ride at the very edge - consistently. No more grabbing a handful of throttle and praying the tyre would stick if you messed up a corner - current top rank riders virtually do not make mistakes and they have virtually nothing in reserve all race long. And while keeping inch perfect all race long, they must also contend with a motorcycle that changes its power delivery and braking performance corner by corner - and sometimes during a race if the computer think you have used too much - or not enough - fuel. That's pretty difficult, I expect, to having a non-consistent motorcycle while riding on the limit. So winning races today isn't easier than before, just different. Personally, I'd like to see every electronic device except electronic ignition and fuel injection banned from racing motorcycles. Leave the rest to the rider. The current motorcycles cannot be raced without electronic aids. Yes, they can turn off the wheelie control and traction control and still be able to ride these things, but they cannot turn off the throttle modulation that smooths out a naturally very erratic powerband. Just like you cannot fly an F16 without the aid of a computer, really. Then again, I'm sure there were old gits like me who protested the automatic oil pumps and automatic ignition timing advancers and the spark plugs that didn't have to be heated by flame or having suspension or air inflated tyres, so perhaps in 20 years time will will long back to the good old days when the rider still had to pull the brakes and open the throttles manually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Personally, I'd like to see every electronic device except electronic ignition and fuel injection banned from racing motorcycles. Let me know when the petition is ready for my signature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Wow, that should be illegal...for the same reason that movable aerodynamic components are illegal in formula 1 auto racing (except of course for DRS). What does it mean now to find the right setup, if the "setup" is adjusting itself every 10 m, with no input from the rider? Whoever has the best computer algorithms wins. Blech. the BMW S1000RR HP4 adjusts the damping rate every 10 ms for you lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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