Picking Up The Bike

[xlr8tn]

What action starts picking up the bike following a corner? In order to get on the gas quicker and faster, I need to be able to stand it up quicker. Let's say we are headed into turn one (right hand turn). I typically start pressing on the left (outside) footpeg and start pushing with my left hand. Any other techniques that can help me?

[M1Combat]

If you have traction available you could start adding speed and the bike would begin to stand up? You could lean your upper body further into the turn to lift the bike a hair and use the extra traction to feed in some power?

[ShInYSiDe]

If you have traction available you could start adding speed and the bike would begin to stand up? You could lean your upper body further into the turn to lift the bike a hair and use the extra traction to feed in some power?

 

 

The only thing that will literally Stand your bike back up... JUST The same way that you put it into that turn direction wise.. is "Steering" input. Correct me if I'm mis-informed, but a motorcycle will not come up out of a turn at any speed by itself, getting on the gas or not. Steering it in and out of a turn are the only single effective ways to "turn in and out quickly, and precisely.

 

Now, going into the turn, and depending on how solid you're body positioning is, attack angle, lean angle, traction angle, and throttle contol are, will dictate how fast you will be able to Steer your machine back up.. after you complete the turn and proceed to exit in order to set up for the next one.

 

Thoughts...?

[03tlrmo]

I have to say steering input is correct. On my local track there is a small tight chicane that goes right to left. When you are entering the chicane you are dropping from 4th gear to 2nd or 1st. While doing this your trail braking pretty deep into the right hander. Then flick it over to the left and then apply the throttle as you bring the bike upright and get ready for the next turn. So I think to bring the bike upright or flick it over is a steering input while the throttle is mainly to carry momentum for faster times. If you are waiting until the bike is close to upright to apply the throttle you are applying the throttle to late. I start applying the throttle as soon as I can in midturn or I should say rolling on the throttle. Just my 2 cents.

[Keith Code]

What action starts picking up the bike following a corner? In order to get on the gas quicker and faster, I need to be able to stand it up quicker. Let's say we are headed into turn one (right hand turn). I typically start pressing on the left (outside) footpeg and start pushing with my left hand. Any other techniques that can help me?

 

xlr8tn,

 

You push on the left footpeg and which bar do you press to initiate the turn?

 

Keith

[jrock7896]

"The only thing that will literally Stand your bike back up... JUST The same way that you put it into that turn direction wise.. is "Steering" input. Correct me if I'm mis-informed, but a motorcycle will not come up out of a turn at any speed by itself, getting on the gas or not. Steering it in and out of a turn are the only single effective ways to "turn in and out quickly, and precisely."

 

I do believe you are incorrect... Accelerating out of a turn will stand that bike up for you with little or no inputs to the bar ends.

[racer]

Hey jrock,

 

How does acceleration make the bike stand up?

[jrock7896]

Hey jrock,

 

How does acceleration make the bike stand up?

 

 

No friggin clue as to the physics behind this ... Does it not? I was of the understanding that acceleration stood the bike up. Agian this is from attending a riding school and I am simply regurgitating what I have been told. I have no problem admitting I am wrong, but when on the track after an apex or even before for that matter any time I am leaned over and roll on the throttle it certianly feels like the bike is picking itself up, although I could be unconsiouly giving steering input I guess.

[racer]

Hey jrock,

 

 

I didn't talk about a specific technique of how to go about picking up the bike in the braking posts because it didn't really go directly to REDRIDER's question. And I didn't want to confuse an already long post. But, it did cross my mind that this is important. And, it seems like most everyone who has ridden a motorcycle has the same idea as you do. Actually, I think you might be onto something here.

 

Under hard acceleration, it feels like my bike wants to stand up, too.

 

Somebody else said that jammin on the front brake makes their bike do the same thing.

 

How weird is that, huh?

 

Hard acceleration AND hard braking both seem to make the bike want to stand up.

 

AND...

 

Regardless of throttle or brake input, we've pretty well established that a rider can counter-steer a bike up and down using just steering input at the handlebars.

 

So, I pondered it for a little while this afternoon and came back to it tonight and here's what I think:

 

We seem to have a consensus that the driving force behind counter-steering is the momentum of the bike itself. When a rider turns the wheel to the left, the forward inertia of the machine tries to go straight sorta knockin the bike over to the right.

 

And, it's been demonstrated by somebody else here, when a bike is leaned over, that the front wheel is slightly cocked or turned to the inside when it is balanced in the turn. Hence, why the bike goes in a circle, it really is steering into the turn at lean.

 

Now, if you can imagine it, by turning the front wheel even more to the inside, that same inertia or forward momentum is what picks the bike up again in the exact reverse of knockin it over. Counter-steering the bike back up, that inertia drives the bike back up and over the cocked front wheel.

 

Well, Keith Code has demonstrated with millions of miles and decades of proof that a little bit of acceleration will keep a motorcycle balanced in a turn.

 

BUT...when a rider accelerates HARD that increase in forward momentum does the same thing as counter-steering does. It forces the bike up again because that wheel is cocked to the inside of the turn. When you add forward force, you drive the bike up over that cocked front wheel just like counter-steering.

 

What is really wild, is that if you hit the brakes, you get the same sort of forward force over that front wheel which does the same thing again. The weight of the bike gets thrown forward under braking and tries to go up over that cocked front wheel again.

 

In more techinical terms, the ratio of force to the angle of steering offset in the wheel is increased in both instances. One by adding more angle to overcome equilibrium and lever the bike in counter-steering up, second by adding more force to the lever in acceleration or braking.

 

 

So, that's my theory.

 

There may be some gyro forces at the rear wheel to consider once the bike starts coming up that allow a rider to lift the front wheel and continue the upward motion coming out of a turn under hard acceleration, but, I believe that might be secondary to the action we have been discussing.

 

 

Crazy, huh?

 

 

So, I agree with your observation that hard acceleration will stand the bike up but the statement you were responding to is also correct in that counter-steering will also stand the bike up and do it more quickly and precisely than simply accelerating because, in technical terms again, changing the offset of the steering angle has a much greater effect on that angle to force ratio.

 

Sufficed to say, hard acceleration/braking will bring the bike up as will steering input at the handlebars. And steering input at the handlebars will bring it up faster. I'll let the steering guru tell you how and when to do which.

 

 

Think it over. Try it out. Tell me what you think.

 

 

Cheers,

 

R

[jrock7896]

Perhaps you are correct, good observations I would also suspect that there is some gyro effects in play.... It also seems that the bike will actually lean over more in a turn if you cut throttle after reaching maintenance throttle... Perhaps the front tire losses most of the forward drive or push actually in this scenario and its has a tendency to turn out more hence causing the bike to fall over more do you notice this as well? I use counter steering very consciously when coming out of turns in order to set myself up for a trun that might be very close aftwards such a chicane or whatever. However when I come around a nice corner that empties on to a bit of a straight away where I am not worried about setting up my line for the next turn, I think I let me acceleration alone pick the bike up. In other words once I hit apex of just before it I roll on throttle and how much throttle I can roll on is directly affected by how close my bike is pushing out to the edge of the track due to acceleration. I think this is why when you watch professionals they push their bikes out to the very edge of the track after turns that dump onto a bit of a stright…

 

They are trying to get maximum acceleration out of the turn and if acceleration picks the bike up like I am sure it does then one would want to use the entire width of the track so one could get maximum acceleration out of the turn before going into the straight.

 

Keith please chime in and school us....

[Keith Code]

Perhaps you are correct, good observations I would also suspect that there is some gyro effects in play.... It also seems that the bike will actually lean over more in a turn if you cut throttle after reaching maintenance throttle... Perhaps the front tire losses most of the forward drive or push actually in this scenario and its has a tendency to turn out more hence causing the bike to fall over more do you notice this as well? I use counter steering very consciously when coming out of turns in order to set myself up for a trun that might be very close aftwards such a chicane or whatever. However when I come around a nice corner that empties on to a bit of a straight away where I am not worried about setting up my line for the next turn, I think I let me acceleration alone pick the bike up. In other words once I hit apex of just before it I roll on throttle and how much throttle I can roll on is directly affected by how close my bike is pushing out to the edge of the track due to acceleration. I think this is why when you watch professionals they push their bikes out to the very edge of the track after turns that dump onto a bit of a stright…

 

They are trying to get maximum acceleration out of the turn and if acceleration picks the bike up like I am sure it does then one would want to use the entire width of the track so one could get maximum acceleration out of the turn before going into the straight.

 

Keith please chime in and school us....

Hi guys,

 

If you pay close attention to what the bike is doing you will find that the initial reaction of going off gas mid corner is the bike coming up slightly. As the speed deteriorates rapidly when this happens, the bike then begins to tighten up its line, going to the inside of the turn. The lean increases as the radius the bike is running on decreases.

 

The initial "stand up" is due to the drag at the contact patch trying to countersteer the front wheel into the turn and therefore bring the bike up.

 

Acceleration widens the arc the bike is on without altering its lean angle. Lean angle is depedant on speed and also the radius of the turn. You can be at full lean in a 35mph hairpin and a 150mph sweeper. Its just that the radius is great in the 150mph turn.

 

If acceloeration stands the bike up then that must mean a rider who is accelerating hard out of a turn must hold the bike down with the bars to keep his line on the exit until he wishes to pick up the bike for the next straight or corner and that is something that I have never had happen on any bike that I have ridden.

 

Most riders think that rolling on the thorttle brings their bike up at the end of the turn even if they are only accelerating a small or an average amount. What does that tell you?

 

Does mild acceleration also bring the bike up or is it just a false perception of the rider when they are actually steering the bike up while rolling on the throttle and doing it unconciously, as riders who don't understand countersteering think they are steering by leaning?

 

Keith

[jrock7896]

"Most riders think that rolling on the throttle brings their bike up at the end of the turn even if they are only accelerating a small or an average amount. What does that tell you?"

 

So does the same thing happen when your roll on throttle while leaned as when you cut it? Is there an initial "stand up" when you roll on throttle that has us all fooled into thinking it happens throughout the acceleration when we are actually steering? Or is it just that we are subconsciously steering the entire time once we begin to roll on out of the turn.

 

 

Interesting that acceleration will only widen your arc, but it actually makes sense when you watch motogpgp or ama. The arc those guys use coming out of corners is the widest possible.. Hence the most acceleration possible... correct?

 

 

Thanks for your insight and for the oppurtunity to use the forums, ive ordered your book tw2 and vey much look foward to reading it.

[racer]

Hey Keith and jrock,

 

 

Me and my theories, huh?

 

"No no no, it's the gyro thing, I'm tellin' ya!"

 

I swear I'm gonna prove anti-gravity with that rear wheel one of these days.

 

 

Thank you Keith for clearing that up.

 

R