benhamf15

No. I was in training to be a rider coach so I was on a coach bike which had the GPAs. Fortunately, I'm still in training despite the crash. Benny

I though the school bikes were all on Q3's ?? Did you request the upgraded tires ?

No warmers. I was on a school bike. I had been following a slower student for a few laps then stopped for a couple minutes before the crash lap. Benny

Would reassignment surgery be considered CSS Level 5? I wonder if Keith has researched that yet. I bet he has... he's researched everything else. Congrats on your success Hugh! Benny

Im interested in the track temp and which tires you are on... mind sharing? Dunlop D-211 GPAs, very warm/hot air temp (around 90F) with the sun shining. I didn't measure the track temp. Barber Motorsports Park is mostly right-handers and only a couple of significant lefts so it's challenging to warm up the left edge of the tire. Benny

Probably not at that pace. I think I NEEDED the quick-turn given my entry speed and tighter entry line after passing in the previous corner... but I would likely have been UPRIGHT in the runoff area instead of down in it if I had steered more slowly. I put myself in a square corner of HAVING to quick turn but not knowing that I couldn't because the tire edge was cold. Again, though, I think the ROOT CAUSE of this was asking too much of a cold tire, but not being aware that the edge on that side was too cold (the other side held nicely in previous corners at similar pace). But part of what I learned from the whole experience was what I addressed above... one of the reasons not to quick-turn on a cold tire is to give yourself a chance to feel where the traction limit is as the tires warm. Previously, my understanding of why you shouldn't quick-turn on a cold tire was only because you could cause a loss of traction WHILE steering quickly. I hadn't considered not doing so in order to give yourself the chance to feel the traction limit before exceeding it while warming up the tires. Benny

Unfortunately, I had an interesting lesson in overdoing a quick-turn at Barber the last day of CSS that I think is relevant to this discussion. Unfortunately it resulted in a crash. I was riding hard attempting to catch up to my coach who was chasing another student and had the right side of my tires nice and warm as a result. However, the extreme left edge of my tire was still relatively cold (another of the many lessons from this crash) and I wasn't aware of that. Coming into the final (left) corner prior to the front straight, I quick flicked the bike in at a very high speed (both the flick and the entry speed) and almost immediately lost the front. Fortunately, nobody was hurt and damage was minimal. The quick-turn lesson from this, after much discussion with several coaches, was: the fast rate of steering didn't DIRECTLY cause the crash, it was the cold edge of the tire once I got it there. The tire was able to take the FORCE of the quick-steering just fine, but the reason the quick-flick was an issue was that I didn't get the chance to feel indications that the tire edge was cold in time to stop leaning the bike over. Had I steered the bike more slowly, I would have been able to feel the cues the cold edge would have given me in time to prevent the complete loss of traction. The bigger issue was really my awareness of the cold edge on the less used side of the tire, but since this thread is about quick-turning, I thought the quick-turn lesson would be a good one. This is a big reason you don't quick-turn on cold tires... It's less because they won't take the force while steering, and more about giving yourself a chance to feel where the cold tire traction limit is before you exceed it. Benny

Wow... That was ugly. Any idea if there were any serious injuries? I hope not. I hate to second guess things but it certainly appears that control rider was not on his game like I would expect a control rider to be. It's a good lesson for all of us to ensure we spare enough attention to maintain awareness of our surroundings. +1 on Trevor & the whole CSS crew for their aggressive pursuit of any asshattery. They're all highly professional and that makes for a great riding and learning environment. Benny

Robert, Congrats on your new toy! It looks awesome. I can't wait to see it in person at Barber in a couple of weeks. Enjoy! Benny

I've heard about the Shorai but I've also heard good things about the Ballistic batteries. Any experiences with Ballistic anyone?

What is the best light weight replacement battery?

Sounds like a good problem to have. 600 miles in 20 days is 30 miles/day... Doable. Rear sets are nice but not required, I like Woodcraft. If anything, I'd put Stomp Grip on the tank. Your stock tires will work fine especially since you're riding about 80% at the school for learning purposes but if you would have your attention on them, get Q3s. Will should be able to mount them for you the first morning but call ahead first. A stock S1000RR is plenty for the school, and even nearly all riders at max pace. You should be just fine. Call the school on Monday about the discount. See you there! Benny

I think that would be a great source of info on the forum for all of us. Benny

The advice I've received on fitting a helmet is to try it on without the cheek pads if you can. Ensure it fits the crown of your head first & foremost. Then change the cheek pads to be comfortable if that is possible. Either way, pay attention to how it fits your head & not your cheeks. Benny

Isn't that why it's called the Great White North, eh? It was 100F today here in Qatar. If only I had access to a bike to go hit Losail with. Different problem, same results so you've definitely got my sympathy. Benny

I can vouch for the S1000RR as being excellent at both street and track, I imagine the HP4 is as well. I haven't ridden the Panigale, but I understand it's a great tracker but not much of a street bike. Not sure about streetability of the RSV4 but certainly a good track bike if it fits you ergonomically (fairly compact). If you're looking for a 600, it sounds like the Daytona 675 is excellent all the way around. You can already know more about MV than I. Benny

Nic, Sorry to hear about your crash but I'm glad you came out OK. It's definitely sounding like the kind of riding you like to do these days is more suited to the track, though. I hope to hear about you making more use of the several track options available in your area before things go badly wrong for you. There's so much less room for error on the street and the risk versus reward calculus is much better on the track. I've gotten to the point that I don't ride on the street at all anymore because, like you, I much prefer to ride these bikes the way they're meant to be ridden, but the only place to do so with any reasonable amount of safety is on a track. Once you try it, I suspect you won't venture back out on the streets much but if you do, you'll probably keep it toned down because you are scratching that performance itch elsewhere. At least that was the progression I made. Good luck whatever you choose. Benny

And an even greater strength of Keith's is his ability to pass that teaching ability on to the coaches. He understands as much about teaching as he does about riding (if not even more) and he ensures the coaches do as well, which is why the school is so effective... at least it has been for me. Benny

I think your gut instinct on this one is correct. That was a lot of words to say nothing I can use. My noggin hurts and it started hurting when the author talked about steering and leaning the way he did. You STEER to cause the bike to LEAN into the corner. I'm not really clear on what he was getting at on that part, perhaps it was a terminology issue. That's just the start. Parts of what he said are correct but I don't believe it's all tied together correctly. I recommend you just forget you read it and move on. There's better info on this subject in a thread called "How Fast Can You Go Around A Corner" in the Cornering section if you want to get technical. In my experience, there is a lot of incomplete understanding about riding technology in MC journalism but as soon as something is in print, people tend to take it as gospel. Many of the journalists that have come through CSS have come away with a more complete understanding of the art of cornering and a changed perspective after doing so. You can even read a couple of the post-school articles on the home page here. I doubt anybody has researched the subject of cornering a motorcycle as much as Keith Code has and he's broken it all down into USEFUL information that I would prefer to spend my time reading/learning, vice the journalists (I'm not saying they're all bad). Keith's credibility in this area is well established, so if you get info that conflicts with what you have learned from Keith's writings or school, I'd go with Keith's info. Good catch on your part to sniff out that things weren't right. Cheers, Benny

Nice. I've heard good things about the S-2C, especially versus the B. I had an '87 factory S-1T. I was too busy to compete in it but I flew in the '92 Nationals in Sportsman in an S-2A. It was my second contest and was proud to walk away with the small trophy. I'd love to get back into it some day. I think you'll find just as much enjoyment riding on the track as flying competitively. I certainly do. I expect to be at Barber next year too and I'm sure you'll be hooked enough to attend, so I look forward to meeting you then. Barber is spectacular in every way and is my favorite track so far. I'd love to hear what you think of CSS & VIR after you go. Cheers, Benny

Wes, Welcome to the forum & welcome back to the track. You'll have one of the best experiences of your life at CSS. I wish I could join you at VIR but I won't be back with the school til Barber. I'd definitely like to meet you and share some Pitts flying stories. I used to own an S-1T during a non-flying tour in North Carolina. Benny

Don't be freaked out about training in the rain. Most riders make more improvement in the rain than in the dry because in the dry they focus more on going fast and less on the drills. In the rain you don't have that go fast distraction so you can focus more on your learning than your speed. You can learn what the traction limits feel like at a slower, less scary speed too. Rain training is awesome, actually, so be fired up for it & enjoy your CSS experience! You'll love it even if it's wet. Benny

Ask your friend to explain the technology behind that technique to you. WHY does that work? See if he can. Benny

Yellowduck, Great question that I think many folks have. I think there are many misperceptions out there on this subject. Here's my opinion: I'd say there's a reasonable bet you will go faster on your new tires, although not necessarily because of the tires. Most folks go faster than before when they start racing vs. doing track days. The extra motivation to go fast that you gain from racing alone will usually make you push past your current limits and ride faster. Perhaps your probable increased pace will be more than your previous tire selection can handle, perhaps not. I suspect you won't know until you re-mount your old Q2s after a few races and see if they slide at your new pace. Generally, though, I agree that there are a LOT of folks who swear they need stickier tires who really don't. I've seen plenty of guys at the track who feel they need to at least be on GPAs if not slicks, yet I'm 10-15 seconds a lap quicker than them on my stock R6S with Q2s and like you, I'm rarely sliding on them. I would generally say that if your tires are not sliding too much, there's no benefit to spending the money for "better" tires. They won't make you faster because actual traction (vice perceived traction) isn't what is limiting your lap times. As you say, they may even make you slower if you can't get them to their proper operating temperature range. The possible exception to what I've just said is if the change in tires FEELS better to you due to actual or perceived differences, then the change may make someone go faster because they're more comfortable. Although, they still may not be riding anywhere near the actual limit of either the new or old tire. I would even argue that there's much to be gained by putting crappier tires on and doing a couple of wet track days so you can learn the cues your bike gives you as it's reaching it's traction limit, but do so at a slower, less scary speed. If you fear losing traction (as we ALL do), you'll never overcome that fear by not facing it and learning to overcome it. The limit of traction will always be some mysterious, terrifying beast lurking out there in the dark. Stickier tires keep that beast in the dark. To learn to feel the limits of traction you must learn the individual skills that make up a good corner and give you predictable traction (throttle control, good line, relax, etc.). Once you can make traction predictable, you can explore its limits easily, especially in the wet on crappy tires. That big scary monster in the dark suddenly becomes just a little yippy dog you can punt, if that's your thing. My message to all is... don't get stickier tires, get better training & ride in the rain on crappy tires for a while. Good luck in your racing Yellowduck. Let us know how it goes & what you learn. Benny Note: no little yippy dogs were harmed in the typing of this post.

That was a great summation, Tyler, and I couldn't agree more that this is the bottom line in all of this. While this is all an interesting debate for the geek in many of us including myself, I don't think that any of the resultant information will make any of us better riders in the end. How would you even apply the data if you could calculate or measure it real-time? You'd be staring at your speedo and lean angle data and comparing that to the calculated limit all the way through the corner and not watching your line. How comfortable would that be? If you weren't watching where you're going, how confident would you feel going fast through a corner? This isn't an effective approach to improving your riding, just an interesting, theoretical debate. As Hotfoot mentioned, the better way to learn to find your limit in a corner is by taking a step-by-step approach to learning/improving each of the individual skills that go together to make up a good corner. By learning to consistently set the proper entry speed, then geting proper timing of the throttle application followed by proper throttle control and relaxing on the bars... you will create a stable contact patch that will give you predictable traction. Once you've learned to create that predictable traction, you can develop a feeling for your level of grip. Finally, you can begin to increase your entry speed methodically & learn to feel the cues it gives when it begins to slide and how to handle it. Twist of the Wrist II covers each of these individual skills well, and CSS teaches them in class one session/skill at a time and then reinforces them with on track coaching from really talented coaches like Hotfoot and Dylan, among many. In fact, these are all level 1 skills. Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your original question of dragging hard parts before losing traction... as has been clearly demonstrated here. If you really want to learn to explore that limit as safely as possible, get to a school. At least read and apply the skills in Twist II (book or DVD) to your own riding and it will help you move in that direction. Best of luck however you choose to learn your limits. Benny