benhamf15

YellowDuck, I'm glad what I've said has been helpful to you. I think you're on track with your assessment above. As I see it, if you're running wide off the road, you MUST make a correction (or accept crashing). But you should never (a word I rarely use) add lean angle while adding throttle, so you must roll off to at least neutral to add the lean. In this case, it is a conscious, proactive decision and not an SR. Realize, though, that if you are already at or near the limit of traction when you roll off, you risk overloading your front (smaller) contact patch and crashing as well so there can be risk involved. This is why it's so important to leave yourself a large margin on the road where there are a lot of things that can hurt or kill you if you crash. As for the SR of rolling off the throttle mid-corner... let's work toward that answer by having you (or anyone else) answer this question first: 1) What desirable effects does good throttle have on the bike? It maximizes two important things. What are they? Benny

Lyle, We have met. I sent you a PM... don't know if you got it. Benny

Hey, I could use some help integrating this with my CSS schooling and TOTW study. These 3 points sound new and different to me. I'm not sure why. Perhaps this illustrates a gap in my understanding? Justin Justin, To be clear... if you are going through a corner on a good line (3 characteristics), then normal throttle control applies. However, IF you are running wide (i.e. you have to re-steer the bike to add more lean angle to tighten the turn), THEN the situation I was addressing about making a new turn applies. Adding lean angle while continuing to add throttle is a dangerous combination. In that case it is proper to reduce the throttle to at least neutral before making your steering input to add more lean, hence, making a new turn (think back... did CSS teach you to steer the bike with the throttle on or off?). Once the bike is re-steered and is on the new line that you want, proper throttle control applies again. You've made a new turn. Does that clarify things for you? Does this answer your question(s)? Benny

...One thing I did not do, which I been training myself not to do after reading TOTW2 and watching the video is to not chop the throttle in the turn. I stayed on the throttle until about 2 seconds of running wide and into the ditch where I crashed.... I'm back, sorry for the delay. It seems like you're comfortable with the information on how to prevent setting yourself up to run wide by using a good turn point that makes the turn as straight as possible, and steering as quickly as possible. If I'm wrong in that assumption, let me know. Next, I'd like to address your statement above because I believe your understanding of throttle control is incomplete. First, the CSS definition of a good line consists of three elements: 1) Requires only one steering input 2) Allows proper throttle control 3) Makes your line through the corner as straight as possible. If you are on a line that does not ALLOW proper throttle control (i.e. you're running wide), does continuing to accelerate make sense? The answer is obviously no (I hope). The faster you go, the wider your arc becomes, which runs you even wider. The proper solution at that point is to MAKE A NEW TURN. To do so, you should REDUCE the throttle to at least neutral (less is better as it helps you steer more easily), steer the bike on to your NEW line and then apply proper throttle control again. DO NOT re-steer the bike WHILE accelerating because adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is a recipe for losing traction in the rear and crashing. Keith and the CSS crew will tell you that is the number one cause of track crashes. I think it is awesome that you were able to train yourself to overcome the roll-off the throttle SR. It is a great demonstration to all of us that it is possible. I just think there was a small misunderstanding about the application of proper throttle control. That, combined with the target fixation you identified, I think is what kept you from being able to get yourself out of the situation you got yourself into by turning in early. You're definitely on the right track in seeking good information and working to apply it to your riding and I hope you don't let your mishap deter you from continuing on that path. Even better would be to get to a professional school (obviously, my personal recommendation is CSS). Best of luck and let me know if you still have any questions or I've been unclear. Benny

Thanks Hotfoot. Franco... I'll follow up on the rest tomorrow. Pretty slammed today.

Do you remember where you were looking when you turned in? My guess is that you were already looking at the inside of the corner when you steered the bike. We go where we look, WHEN we look. Also, if you already felt at that point that you were too fast, riders have a tendency to "cheat" towards the inside early because we're looking there out of fear (fixated on the inside of the corner). In reality, it sets us up for failure because it forces us onto a tighter line that ultimately forces us to use MORE lean to make it work (or we run wide). The solution is to stay as wide as possible for as long as possible before steering. This straightens out the corner as much as possible, thus requiring less lean angle for the same entry speed. Being able to quick turn the bike allows you to run even deeper before steering and straighten the turn even more. The slower we steer, the earlier we must do so, the tighter the line must become and the more the required lean angle increases. In an unfamiliar corner, stay wide until you can recognize an apex based on the radius/characteristics of the corner. (HOTFOOT, do you have a good book reference? I don't currently have mine available.). Once you can see enough of the corner to know where it really goes, then you can commit. In a familiar corner, find a good turn point and use the 2 step technique. Anyone remember the three characteristics of a good turn point from their CSS training? The 2 step? Chime in. Does this sound close to what happened to start off the crash sequence? If so, does the solution make sense? Once we get this straight, we'll address the fix once you're running wide. Yes, hook turn would have been at least part of the solution. Benny

Sorry to hear about your crash but I'm glad you're ok. So I have a couple of questions to try to help you solve this issue. First, let's try to analyze the root cause as to why you made your initial mistakes. Later, we'll get to a better way to fix the problem once you find yourself running wide. To start with, you said you turned in early and were too fast which sounds like a reasonable assessment as either one by itself can cause you to run wide. To break it down more... Did you turn where you intended to and it just turned out to be too early, or did you not intend to turn in that early. Also, when did you notice you were too fast? Was it right as you turned in or was it later as things weren't working out? Benny

Congrats to you and Nic on your success so far. I would love to see it continue. It would be fun to watch another CSS-trained potential champion work his way up, as we've been doing recently with Joe Roberts. I have no doubt the CSS team will provide Nic the high level of training that will allow him to reach his full potential. Best of luck and keep letting us know how it goes! Cheers, Benny

Eirik & Yellow Duck, I personally agree that these are attributes of a good rider, but just for giggles, let's see if we can break these points down a bit further... 1. High "SR" threshold... what can a rider do to reduce his SR threshold? What are the things that trigger SRs and what specific skills can be applied to reduce them? What what were/are your personal triggers & what have you guys done to reduce them? 2 & 3. Consistent line selection & sense of speed... I personally think the underlying skills that address these are the same, which is why I grouped them together. Again, what skills can you aply to improve the consistency of your line selection? Improve your sense of speed? What has worked specifically for each you? Anyone else is obviously free to chime in as well. Benny

First, I'd like to say that I'm right and you're all wrong! (Still want me here Cobie?) Seriously, though, your point is well taken. Where does basic become too basic? The reason I chose to start with steering is that I've seen a surprising number of experienced riders who still don't really understand how to properly countersteer a bike. We literally had a guy who had been riding for 20 years at an ARTD who clearly had a problem in this. I have no idea how he survived without it. After working it out with him he made a dramatic improvement and was literally elated at the revelation. He couldn't believe the difference it made. He was the "oldest" rider I can remember that had countersteering issues but I'd say we worked on countersteering with between 10-20% of our ARTD students (of varying level of experience) so, in my experience, it is a bit more of a skill than starting the bike or working the clutch. Certainly, others may draw the line elsewhere. Benny

Well... almost. At least I don't have to worry about a G-Induced Loss of Consciousness on a bike. I can't rule out a crash-induced one though. Certainly the challenge and the excitement are similar, at least when talking about track riding. It's been a truly great substitute. It pushes all the same buttons for me. There's nothing like learning to push a high-performance machine to it's limit and learning to do it well enough that you're truly comfortable doing so. It's even better if you can get good enough to be able to not just do it yourself, but teach others those same skills. To me, that's the ultimate enjoyment. It just doesn't get any better than that in my opinion. Benny

Tyler, I was there doing the ARTD stuff from late 2009 through late 2011. I only missed 2 ARTDs during that period (including the very first) so if you were involved in any, we've probably crossed paths. Benny

Hi all. I'm Benny, long-time lurker. Cobie called me out in another thread, so I'm finally coming out of the woodwork and joining in the conversations, hopefully with some value added. How did I get here? I'm on active duty in the USAF and I was formerly an F-15 Instructor Pilot. As eventually happens to all of us, I got sent to a staff job. At least it was in Hawaii. Needing my adrenaline fix, I bought a sport bike (imagine that...). Shortly after getting my bike and going through the requisite MSF training I participated in the ARTD program at Marine Corps Base Hawaii. That's when the light bulb really came on. I was so impressed with the quality of the training that I wanted to become a part of it and eventually got certified as a Rider Coach for the ARTD program. I've now been associated with CSS for about 4 years and my learning curve continues to be as steep as ever. I've also watched the training work well for over 1500 ARTD students, and the safety record of riders that have participated in that training is nothing short of amazing. Needless to say, I'm totally sold on the CSS way of training... and I'm not easily impressed. Since then, I've moved to the Florida panhandle which is great because there are several great tracks nearby. I now ride only on the track since it's the only way to properly enjoy what a sport bike has to offer. I love track riding because there is always something you can improve upon, similar to flying. My "home" track is JenningsGP but I've also had the opportunity to ride Barber. I was hoping to make NOLA and Road Atlanta this year but I was suddenly deployed for a year so those will have to wait. I've done CSS at Streets (twice) and Vegas and am hoping to do many more with the school. I look forward to getting to know everyone on the forum. Cheers, Benny

Ok... I've officially been called out. I'm Benny, long-time lurker, first-time poster. I'll drop some more info about myself in the new guy section when I get a chance in case anyone cares. I spent a couple of years as an ARTD Rider Coach so the skills I list below are my opinion based on my experience working with over 1500 students in that program. 1. The ability to effectively counter-steer the bike. If you can't make the bike go in the direction you want it to, nothing else matters. Steering is THE most basic skill. We regularly spotted students on the orientation laps that couldn't keep up with the group even at very slow speeds (15-25 MPH). They always looked wobbly because they were pro-steering the bike and it wasn't going where they wanted it to so they didn't have the confidence to speed up. EVERY single time we saw that, it was due to a lack of understanding of counter-steering. After a brief lesson, we ALWAYS saw a rapid and dramatic improvement in speed and smoothness (i.e. confidence). There's a reason CSS does the steering drill right off the bat in Level 1. 2. Proper throttle control. This goes hand-in-hand with proper steering and is the second step in being able to make the bike go exactly where you want it to go because proper throttle control gives the bike the stability needed to hold a predictable line. There is a reason CSS teaches throttle control as the first on-track drill in Level 1. Once you can put the bike exactly where you want it to go then you can worry about #3. 3. Good visual skills. Once you have the ability to put the bike where you want it to go, you need to be able to effectively determine where that should be and that's where these visual skills come in. Others have listed these as #1 and I would certainly agree they are absolutely critical, especially as speed increases. The reason I put it as #3 is because the very basic, built-in visual skills are good enough to get you by in the beginning while we figure out how to make the bike go where we want it to. Selecting and using a good turn point is the first step in developing a good flow of visual information and I expect that's the reason it's the second on-track drill in CSS Level 1. There is also an entire CSS level (Level 2) devoted to these skills. Vision can affect your sense of speed, your confidence, your SR threshold, or virtually any aspect of your riding. I believe that as you progress as a rider, this is certainly where most of your improvement can come from. Nearly every rider error can ultimately be attributed to a visual skills error. That's how I see it, anyway. I'm glad to finally be up on the CSS forum. Looking forward to everyone's replies. Cheers, Benny