ktk_ace
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Posts posted by ktk_ace
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Correct, Soft came out between Twist 1 and 2. I was in that video also, to answer that question. The most exciting scene for me doesn't look like much from the camera, but I'm in green jacket, and swerve to avoid a car coming around a turn in my lane. The guy driving was further in my lane than I understood he was going to be--it might not look close, but felt that way at the time.
He has been working on Twist 3 for some time--seems like it is not a small project!
alright!
Lemme know when it hits the shelf!
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Ride your bike in a straight line and move your but cheek over to the right and a generous portion of your upper body.
Now - for the bike to keep going forward you may notice 2 things.
1) the bike has to counter balance itself. It will lean slightly to the left
2) you will need pressure to the left bar.
So now your body mass is to the right side of the bike, the bike leaning to the left and pressure to the left bar is applied and you keep going straight.
According to basic physics, the masses of the bike + rider are at tendency to converge. Meaning - you will feel forces to go towards the bike and the bike towards you.
So at this point, and at the track, be it the braking zone, you are off to the right side of the bike, pressing on the left handle bar, and the bike slightly leaned over to the left. At this point you have created potential eneregy towards a right side lean. If you release the pressure on the outside bar, the bike will "attempt" by the laws of physics to come towards YOUR center of mass and will fall towards your body.
The bike will lean to the left because you are "counter steering" it to the left, thats what you are doing with that left bar pressure. It is not balancing itself. If you let it be it would turn slightly to the right. You can use this to some advantage as you save lean angle when you enter the turn and stay on the brakes harder/longer. And your feeling of "stored energy" is not wrong as you have already prepared your counter steering. Compare what you do to the hip-flick techniqe taught in level 3.
Also compare what you are doing with how we like to prepare body positioning by moving the butt way ahead of the corner. And how that does NOT make you need to balance the bike by pressing any bar to keep it going straight. How much would then that kind of body positioning with the butt out but head still behind wind screen help in any way with lean angle and corner speed?
The negative comments here is because everyone here "knows" that "body steering" is not very effective and totally without precision. I dont think much effort was made to understand why you find it useful to move the center of gravity towards the turn before you enter the turn.
Its not negative... I've ridden a few "trackified" bikes ; i speak from my puny experience .
I wont call the motovudu way negative; its proven with said rider with said bike to be fast on said tracks.
but if you miss one component, its gonna turn very ugly especially on the streets.
Its like mouse sensitivity... form a scale of 1-10(SLOW<> FAST) , most people are on the 3-7 range
to do it the way noamkrief says, you will have to tune the bike all the way to 10 aka hypersensitivity ; extremes wins races on tracks , its just a different solution to a common problem...
The reason why this hypersensitive tune will be a hazard on the streets (i might miss a few )
-slicks on public tarmac
-super expensive suspension which needs service every 500 miles
-massive hang off which might get you in trouble with the law
-near inability to deal with sudden road changes with impromptu fast precise inputs(animal/pedestrian/pet on the road etc)
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Any thoughts?
It seems to me that your options are:
-Let it skid that little.
-Slowdown on that turn.
-Replace a continuos radius curve with two or more quck flicks connected with straight lines that cross those metal expansion joints. You can achieve the same number of degrees of direction chain in less time (due to the quick reduced radius of turn) using the quick flick technique.
See schematics of Chapter 15 in A Twist of the Wrist II.
I wont recommend skidding unless you are comfortable and knowledgable enough with your bike , tires suspension , everything.
I have played with drainhole covers;
-when everything goes right, you experience a small skid at the back tire and you can use it as a makeshift oversteer move/technique
-when everything DOESNT go right ... lowside...
its a gamble I personally dont want to gamble if possible .
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So how do you guys do it exactly?
1% talent , 5 % education, 94% practice @ 75% of your current abilities
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The feeling of going into a turn at the track is MUCH different than on the street. On the street countersteering is 100% the way to turn the bike, no question.
On the track, since the turns are memorized, and smoothness is key, we don't usually find situations in which we have to turn the bike abruptly enough to require counter steer. Situations on the track that require countersteer are things like traffic avoidance, and quick flick situation as in a chicane.
I think you have these reversed, on the street you can be lazy with your steering inputs, the term "Street Lazy" exists for this reason, but on the track you should be steering as quickly as possible on virtually every corner.
Now to be fair I have given the technique you describe a try in a few different situations and when it comes to "spring loading the bike" I have to say I disagree with your physics. If I hang off the bike as far as I possibly can and counter lean the bike to maintain a straight trajectory you claim that I have somehow preloaded force into the bike and it will come snapping over into the corner. I have found that doing this and then letting go of the handlebars entirely causes the bike to gradually stand itself upright. If i combine that with massive pressure to the inside footpeg and a hefty nudge on the outside of the tank with my knee and "core" the bike does lean over somewhat and turn slightly, but not enough to take any corner at speed, I can achieve the same results with just the inputs to my foot peg and gas tank, the added "stored energy" for the counter lean has minimal impact. I can think of only one situation where you can get the bike to fall over with 400 lbs of inertia.
IMHO he only ride track days on his super expensive track bike which is imho tuned to his style for massive oversteer , hence even the smallest countersteering input by his body would achieve the amount needed to turn the bike
Said bike is not ridable imho on public roads for obvious reasons.
if he try riding on any production bike with his said style , it will only result in massive and multiple compounding problems.
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Glad I made some of you laugh regarding my body steering post but please keep an open mind...
The countersteering method is very real and effective but when running at a faster pace, body steering becomes a big part of turning the bike.
Fact is that countersteering is not the ONLY way the bike leans or stands back up. An application of the throttle as most of you will know will stand the bike up without applying pressure to the outside bar - I think most of us can agree. So if there is 1 exception there may be others...
Ride your bike in a straight line and move your but cheek over to the right and a generous portion of your upper body.
Now - for the bike to keep going forward you may notice 2 things.
1) the bike has to counter balance itself. It will lean slightly to the left
2) you will need pressure to the left bar.
So now your body mass is to the right side of the bike, the bike leaning to the left and pressure to the left bar is applied and you keep going straight.
According to basic physics, the masses of the bike + rider are at tendency to converge. Meaning - you will feel forces to go towards the bike and the bike towards you.
So at this point, and at the track, be it the braking zone, you are off to the right side of the bike, pressing on the left handle bar, and the bike slightly leaned over to the left. At this point you have created potential eneregy towards a right side lean. If you release the pressure on the outside bar, the bike will "attempt" by the laws of physics to come towards YOUR center of mass and will fall towards your body.
This motion of the bike "falling" to the right towards your body mass is loaded with 400 pounds of inertia.
Also - if your bike suspension is set aggressively, under braking you will have "rake" meaning the front will be lower than the rear of the bike due to compression of the front forks. This creates an inherently unstable system. In aerodynamics (even according to motogp techs, bikes are more like airplanes than anything else) unstable planes are maneuverable and stable airplanes are not maneuverable. So with the rake, your bike is unstable which causes it to "want" to turn, or have a tendency not to be stable, in other words, fall down easily towards the direction of the turn.
What I have explained here is very subtle and probably not noticeable by most riders. Remember, just because you're fast, doesn't mean you really understand what you are doing... I've met plenty of people who were a second or 2 off the track record who had no idea how or what they were doing to achieve those laptimes let alone try to explain anything...
Sorry for my taboo "body steering" post. Countersteering does work great, but I find it more useful on the streets, and in transitions between 2 turns at the track where you really have to manhandle the bike from side to side.
Again - the no BS bike by Keith Code is nothing short of genius but lets see what that bike does under braking and loading the front end, while applying some pressure on the right peg and moving the body over to the right side. Under constant throttle without loading the front - of course that bike doesn't want to lean over and needs the somewhat "rough" technique of countersteering.
race conditions with a supermoto race bike huh?
Anything short of race conditions(read: PUBLIC ROADS and naked / non race preped bikes) = countersteering is all you need.
I'd put my money on countersteering 99% of the time because body steer only works for the remaining 1% which you have stated.
It seems that you have watched motovudu... if you have , the techniques inside only applies to a fully prep-ed race bike prep-ed for a specific style.
I've tried that on "lesser " bikes and most of the techniques inside only serves to run the bike wide/ upset the "cheap" suspension .
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If hes passionate about it enough, he'll learn it himself and eventually ask you if he hits a mental/skill roadblock...
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We are talking a lot about suspension settings - but riding style can make a big difference in that area.
One point I want to clarify:
What we learn from CSS and Twist II is that the IDEAL scenario is to be tapering off the brakes as you approach your turn point, so that you are letting off the brake as you turn in the bike - that way you trade braking/deceleration forces for turning forces, so that the front end stays compressed throughout. That is NOT the same thing as trail-braking, which involves staying on the brakes past the turn point and farther into the turn - which subjects the tire to BOTH braking and cornering forces simultaneously. Careful timing of the brake release point can help overcome imperfect suspension settings.
However, if you brake hard, then fully release the brake BEFORE your turn point, and then turn, you can get the effect of the front compressing, then releasing (rising back up) then compressing again at turn-in, which is an unsettling feeling and can cause the rider to think he/she can't enter the turn any faster. Additionally, it makes the bike's turn-in more sluggish; a compressed front suspension will give a sharper steering response.
Perfecting the timing can really help smooth out the ride on turn entries.
I was confused with trail braking and tapering off, but i guess im much more clear now, thanks!
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He has a new formula, newer than what I had at the track (he doesn't have that in bulk, just the packets). Says it is better with some added minerals and a bit less sugar even.
I'd say the doc should sell it on amazon; free shipping to my country
and lots of other places too , more exposure= more sales -
imho it looks like your front suspension has way too little rebound damping for that track ... and either a spring thats too strong or too strong compression damping too (or the oil lock if its stock)
in your case , Trail braking moves the front suspension into the middle-3rd sweet spot, thats why it seems natural to you~
could be fixed by:
1) technique (hook turn : more weight to the front , smaller throttle opening , faster quick flick)
2) lowering your front (changes geometry thou)
3) tuning your suspension (im no expert thou)
4) adding ballast to the front of the bike
Interesting. I'm actually pretty happy with the way it is working, but perhaps it is just that at my glacial pace I can't detect the deficiencies.
I have completely custom suspension - AK-20 cartridges in the front with springs spec'd for my weight, and a Penske rear, also custom built for my bike. I have spent many hours tuning all aspects of it, and both ends have been (fairly) recently serviced.
On the two outings so far this year it has done nothing to make me think it needs further adjustment, except that at one point I was using a bit too much front travel and so added a bit of preload.
I am sure it is like everything else - right now it works perfectly as far as I can tell, but as I up my pace I will eventually find some aspect of it that needs modification / adjustment. Admittedly the one thing I have never monkeyed with much is the geometry (either fork height or rear ride height), but I like I said I don't currently feel the need.
Do you really think the rebound is too fast? That's easy enough to try....I actually really like playing with suspension adjustments, tire pressures etc., but lately I have been concentrating more on my riding per se.
either too little rebound damping or too little anti wheelie (your front seems to be lifting up waaay too much when under acceleration imho)
I might be wrong though , so do take it with a grain of salt ...
I do say do try out 1-2 clicks more rebound damping , its the easiest to get back to your original settings if things dont take a turn for the better
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racing... yeah, closed circuit blah blah with a sub/million dollar machine...
I can ride safely in the real world thou
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To Lnewqban - Some creative writing that possibly can be applied to your questions. YMMV.
Whew! That was a read. My heart is pounding.
I have been pretty much trying to set my entry speed early and avoid trail braking altogether, but it feels really unnatural to me. I think I am going to go back to allowing myself to taper off the brakes during turn in. It just seems to save a lot of time, and allows me to control the suspension action better - sort of trading braking forces for cornering forces as I lean the bike in so that the suspension doesn't bob around too much. Otherwise I find I need to coast a bit at my final entry speed once I release the brakes, to let the bike settle before turn in. It's slow.
I took a video of my front suspension at the track this week, and it is clear that on my best laps I am turning in on the brakes. Not full on hard braking of course, but still substantial.
[media]
[/media]imho it looks like your front suspension has way too little rebound damping for that track ... and either a spring thats too strong or too strong compression damping too (or the oil lock if its stock)
in your case , Trail braking moves the front suspension into the middle-3rd sweet spot, thats why it seems natural to you~
could be fixed by:
1) technique (hook turn : more weight to the front , smaller throttle opening , faster quick flick)
2) lowering your front (changes geometry thou)
3) tuning your suspension (im no expert thou)
4) adding ballast to the front of the bike
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The pivot steering idea is simply to obtain a firm(er) connection between your outside leg and the bike. I like to slightly lengthen my ankle and lower leg using my calf and then flex my quad to "lock" my leg to the tank. From that platform you can more quickly and precisely execute the "push/pull" on the bars (I find the push to be enough so I don't pull on the outside bar) that initiates the quick turn lean-in.
Does that help?
Ok that was how i understood it.Thanks.
Keith mentions steering rate and even has a graph.You know...how Rainey steers in half a sec or less while we take almost 2 secs.How do you guys do? A steady push of about two inches should get me down nicely no?
I use half an inch to avoid obstacles.
nope, it takes sampling and every bike and rider is different.
Start at 75% or less of your capabilities . practice makes perfect
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rate of steer is also important.
steer like a slug and you are not going to make it.
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1) I'm at a point where I try to set my entry speed without using the brakes.
Why?
As to Lnewqban's original question, I'm with the others:
1. I get any deceleration done, by rolling-off and/or braking, BEFORE initiating the turn. I try to avoid avoid trail-braking for the reasons we all know. Maybe this is old-fashioned, but it works for me.
2. I get back on the throttle asap after the turn-in (and as "evenly, smoothly, constantly" as I can!
). This fixes the suspension in that perfect 40/60 suspension loading that we're all aiming for ...3. I hold that throttle thru the turn, and only start accelerating once I've got my exit.
So there's no real, 'Transition from Deceleration to Acceleration', while in the turn. Instead it goes:
Decelerate-Hold Steady-Accelerate.
And that's the Code way - unless I've got it wrong
HTH
Craig
I do this too ; just im not good with words
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Mr Keith Code's newest article:
http://www.motorcycl...ime_dont_blink/
Thoughts:
Predictive-reactive planning > been working on turning in and braking (never knew it ; i thought I was honing my muscle memory throttle/turn/brake wise)
Still needs to work on my body position and especially my stiff arms (SR!!) which gets me more than I want it to~
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1) I do MOST of my braking straight up , usually in this order > rear, then 0.5S later front ,then rear off , then front off (all within 3 seconds )then reaching the "flick" turn in point.
Once the bike touches the turn in point , i do a quick flick while doing maintaining throttle roll /slow off (on downhill or off chamber) / slow on(on uphill or very chambered)
2) im not so sure about the front ; the rear, I've been able to keep it at the half to 2/3 length (dirt ring indicator) sweet spot.
3) practice practice and practice at 75% of your ability or less !
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Not quite sure I understood you, but if you mean a consistent rider will struggle on an inconsistent bike and a non-consistent rider will struggle on any bike, I'm with you. Brakes that operate with inconsistent lever travel, tyres that grip fine on asphalt but suddenly turns slippery on tarmac, drum brakes with non-linear action, erratic carburation, suspension that is very temperature sensitive, tyres ditto - lots of possible distractions.
Yup !
Consistent bike + consistent rider = Consistent performance!
As for tire "feel" , there is a section in the twist 2 book too.
Imho getting a new tire means having to relearn a new tire's characteristics and how it affects other components especially suspension;
When i personally find a tire I like (overall), I dont usually change it unless it is EOL/not manufactured anymore.
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Weight limits + G forces
The 500's are imho lighter than current 1L bikes .
If the FIA removes the weight limits, the difference will be like night and day...
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Articles there , its at No.4 with a small eye experiment you can do !
http://www.cracked.com/article_20391_5-mind-blowing-ways-your-senses-lie-to-you-every-day.html
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Still 2 KG from my goal
Still jobless
But hey, I got my intermediate licence!
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The dark arts of suspension and geometry...
I start at the wheels (profile / height / psi etc) ; used to have a rebund daming adjustable shock but sold it for double damping rate one thats only preload adjustable
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This is tuning imho on a personal level .
I was brought up on the tribilogy doctrine ; how fast the bike accelerated affects nearly everything and if one component is the bottleneck, the whole bike will run on that bottleneck.
Consistancy = great results and confidence too, no use if you have a great bike but not so great riding skills and vice versa .
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I dont have the luxury of specific or track days fyi; I try to practice everything .
). This fixes the suspension in that perfect 40/60 suspension loading that we're all aiming for ...
Bike Troubles
in School Questions/General Discussion
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I use redline SI-1 to clean gunk and carbon deposites off the combustion chamber; 1ML per litre or 4ml per gallon
cheap insurance as my bike has same problems too (intake/ex valves go kapoot at 23000-28000 km)