DUNLOP-RTS

see this post to answer your question: http://forums.superb...indpost&p=20491

Tom, Good question! CHOOSING THE RIGHT TIRE SIZE When picking a tire for a track day or racing, your tire size choice boils down to what the tire manufacturer recommends for your bike. Not every 180/55 is made the same, neither is the 190/55 or the 200/55. M & P brands make a 180/55 to fit 600cc class bikes with 5.5x17 rims, and do not recommend using their 190/55. Dunlop does not even make a 180/55 race tire. Dunlop recommends using their 190/55 on 600cc class bikes with 5.5x17 rims. As you can see if you were on a 600, using M or P brands the 190/55 would be wrong, but using a Dunlop 190/55 would be right. This does not mean that M & P are wrong, it just means they named their tire a 180/55 instead of a 190/55. Its best to not get caught up in the "will my bike steer slower/quicker?" issue when changing to a different size. As long as the tire is recommend for that bike/rim it should work fine. Trying to figure out the handling attributes of the tire by asking a friend or by looking at the tire while on the stand is counter productive and leads to you having a preconceived bias. Just ride on it and you be the judge of how you like it. If you are going to go on the track, I highly recommend asking the tire guy for your brand what is recommended. For a 600, Dunlop recommends its 190/55x17 D211GPA. That is the same size used in AMA National competition by all the factory teams and riders. This is a winning tire/size, but trying to use the M or P brand in this size on your 600 may have unpleasant consequences.

Doug, You should try all brands and you be the judge! Certainly I am going to recommend the Dunlops, but this comes from seeing riders do better on them and not just because I sell them. You can sell someone something 1 time, that hard part is selling to them again and again. You will see that many riders use Dunlop because its their choice. They come back over and over because the product works well and does its job and wins races. There are good vendors out there, and some regions have loyal customers to a vendor, but ultimately its your dollars and your riding experience. Give them a try.

Art, Yes, tire warmers put heat into the tire, so you don't have to on the first couple of laps. Other than that there is nothing magical about them. They don't change the rubber compound from bad to good. Now lets tackle the issue of HEAT CYCLES. Heat cycling of the tire is a very confusing and misunderstood area. I will say that I have heard that other brands are well known for "going off" or "heat cycling" and I will leave that conversation to another thread another day. For now I'm going to stick with Dunlop's, as that is what I know. Do tires heat cycle? Yes Is this the most important factor in tires? NO! in fact it is not very significant, and very over emphasized. Certainly making a tire go from 250 deg to negative 10 deg over and over is not the best thing you can do to a tire, but consider that placing it on a warmer, at 190 deg, for 8 hours is not any better. Both extremes are not the best for the tire. We all hear about "Heat Cycle", but almost never do we hear talk about the thickness of the tire, or tread depth/wear. Fact: The thicker the tread rubber, the more grip. The thinner the tread rubber, the less grip. So as you ride on the tire, session after session, the rubber is getting thinner and there is less and less grip. Often this is mistaken for "heat cycle", and the rider now places his attention on his warmers and not on the real important factor of how much tread rubber is left on his tire. Odd rituals start to crop up regarding tire warmers: Riders come back to the pits and RUSH to put their warmers on and crank them up to full, all in an attempt to "stop the heat cycle!". When buying used tires, riders rate the tire by how many heat cycles it has, not the tread depth. It is a mistake to emphasize heat cycling over tread depth, with Dunlops. So lets get real, which tire would you want to buy: 1) A tire with 10 laps and never had warmers? 2) A tire with 8 sessions and was on the warmers all day (8 hours) and never cooled down? 3) A new tire that was on a warmer for 8 hours only and never used? I personally would pick #3 because it has the thickest tread, and #1 would be my second pick because it has less laps and probably more tread than #2. Notice how the heat cycles does not play into my personal choice in this matter, but the tread thickness does. You can use a D211GPA or any other Dunlop tire without warmers and have no problems. ( Make sure you do heat the tire up for the first couple laps before you get with it.) You might have a very small decrease in grip or life, but that would be very small and most likely not noticeable over the 1-5 track days you will get out of the tires. You would be spliting hairs on the performance level and tire life with/without warmers. Even if you were to do back to back tests, you would find that if in just 1 session in the life of the tire, you went 5 seconds faster, that would make more of a difference than heat cycling because you used more tread rubber in that session. Heat cycles are not a total myth, but they do not make as big a difference as the internet would lead you to believe. Tire warmers are good thing to have if you want to get going right out of the pits. They are not a requirement. Note that our recommendation for track day warmers has you putting the warmers on after a session and not plugging them in right away. This is so you don't needlessly force heat into the tire continuously for no reason. http://www.dunloprac...com/Warmers.pdf Ever notice that the chatter about heat cycles started about the time tire warmers became cheaper and more readily available? Do you think there could be an urban legend that started because of this increased supply?

We recommend warmers to be set about 158 deg F, (70c). http://www.dunloprac...com/Warmers.pdf As for your question about temperature and time, it would be very nice if I could give you a nice neat answer and put it all in a perfect uniform exact procedure, but this is not possible with all the factors involved. You need to take into consideration all the factors; ambient temperature, track temperature, wind, how long off the track, how slow the last lap was, your lap times, and others. These things need be taken into consideration. To benchmark your situation you need to ask yourself how much grip do you need (or are likely to need), compared to how hot you got the tire in the last session, how long its been off the track, wind, and other factors above, then make your adjustments accordingly. (adjustments = how you are going to put heat back in the tire, via easy laps or tire warmers) Don't think that 158 def F is OK, while 157 deg F is not OK and you will immediately fall down. This is not the case. Tire temperature is on gray scale, sliding from more white to more black. It's not like a light switch, on or off. It's more like a dimmer switch, that transitions from dark to full bright. Slower riders will never see the highest temperature of the tire because they are going slower. And in turn they will never NEED the highest temperature because they are not going fast enough to need it. This flows hand in hand. The faster you ride, the more you will need higher temps. The important thing is to not try to fit this all into a neat little box of yes or no, on or off, white or black. You need to use your judgment, observation and feel for what is going on. I cannot give you an exact answer of "how long do you think the tires would hold the heat", simply because there are too many variables. My best advice is to pay attention to the conditions and draw on your experience. If it was a 70 deg day and you came off the track for 10 min, would you go at race pace into the first turn, or give it a couple of turns? What about 11 min, 12 min, 13 min? Look at this issue from that point of view. I have observed top riders leave the pits on cold tires and be 25 sec off the pace on the out lap, and 15 sec off the pace on the second flying lap. Don't try this at home, But it is possible.

Thanks for the props! The MD250 uses the same tires as the 125gp class. KR149 front and KR133 rear. The same tires used by the RedBull Rookies Cup riders and USGPRU competitors. You can always call me to get specific information on any racing tire application.

Cool! How much are they? What other tires have you tried? and with what result? What championships have you won?

Great point Cobie! Yes, you must take into consideration the left and right sides of the tire. The 2 lap recommendation is a general recommendation. The rider must adjust this depending on the track. In Cobie's example you can clearly see the rider was NOT taking into consideration that the LEFT side of the tire cold, but he rode it like it was partially warm. Certainly if the track is mostly right handers, then he must take a little more care on the left handers till things are warmed up. Don't think that just because you did 6 left handers the whole tire is equally warm. Yes, heating up one side will put some heat in the other side, but not always enough. You need to warm each side up. Keep in mind that on most tracks there is an uneven amount of right and left turns, thus the temperature from the left and right sides may vary after a session.

Harry, You can start with 32 front and 32 rear on those Q2 for the track. You will shortly want to move up to the D211GPA when you get the hang of it. Have a good ride.

Tires heat up from using them or by using a tire warmer. I am not trying to oversimplify it, but that is what is happening. You could try to pick it apart and say that X% is from the construction flexing and Y% is from the surface of the tire rubbing or spinning on the pavement, Z% from this and so on. Doing that would not change the reality that when you ride on the tire it gets hotter, and when you rider faster it gets even hotter. Some would like to try to regulate the temperature of the tire via the pressure, and this would be a wrong action. Yes you can slightly regulated the running temperature of the tire by adjusting the pressure, but again as stated before you would be affecting the overall grip and stability of the tire much more than you would be changing the temperature. The tire is NOT affected via the engine heat through the counter shaft, primary sprocket, chain, rear sprocket, axle, spacers, bearings, rim hub, spokes and the outer rim. This is just to far for the heat to travel to be of ANY consequence at all. If the outer rim gets hot is is becasue the tire is hot. The most significant thing that generates heat is the construction flexing and moving against itself. Different constructions generate different levels of heat. Different air pressure can change where the heat is located or how spread out it is across the tire. Another factor is how thick the rubber is. Thicker rubber = more heat, Thinner rubber = less heat (given all other factors are the same). Another factor is if the tire is spinning on the pavement, abrasiveness of the pavement, temperature of the pavement, bike weight, rider weight, chassis setup and lap times. All these things contribute in some way to the tires temperature. IN the real world, if you don't use warmers, you should take 2 laps to warm up your tires before you start to put in fast laps. If you come off the track for a break, you will need to put heat back in the tire again before going fast again. You must be the judge of how much heat is lost during your break and how much heat you need to put back in them before going fast. There is no magic equation for this, you need to pay attention and act accordingly. So lets look at a couple of examples and real world situations: 1) Barber Motorsports Park, 40deg F, the wind is blowing, R6, slow rider, is riding for 12 laps and all is going well, then he comes in the pits and take 10 minutes to eat a power bar and drink water. I would recommend taking 2 laps to warm the tires back up. The cold wind will drop the temp fast, and the tires were probably not all that hot off the track being he is a slower rider. 2) Willow Springs, 100deg F, sunny, no wind, R1, fast track day rider, comes in after a 20 min session and is going out after a 20 min break. I would recommend 2-4 corners of warm up. The tires did not cool much in the heat and just a couple of corners and the rider will be back doing fast laps. As you can see there are many variables in play. You must use your head and experience to be a good judge of the situation.

LOL Everything grips better than Mid Ohio in the wet.

I am traveling back from Daytona where we had the Dunlop tire test. As many of you know Daytona was repaved this year. Last week the first cars were allowed to drive on the new racing surface. This weekend, for the first time, Superbikes were allowed to ride on the track. The new surface on the banking, tri-oval and straightaways is BILLIARD SMOOTH. You cannot feel the seams in the pavement when you touch it with you hand. I am serious, We stopped on the back straight and knelt down on the pavement and felt it. If you were blind-folded, you could not feel the seam, ITS THAT SMOOTH. The track has lots of grip now. LOTS Riders can hold on the throttle from NASCAR turn #4 to the start finish without tire spin. This is going to make for even better racing. Check you calenders and get your tickets for the March Daytona 200, its going to be a good race.

If you are having grip issues on the street with the recommended pressures, I would submit you are in a very very slim minority of riders. (we are assuming the tires are not worn out) For legal reasons you will only see recommendations from bike manufacturers and tire manufacturers that sight the owners manual pressures (I am in this category). Because, for the majority of riders, this does apply and is best for safety. Having said that, you can refer to earlier posts that give procedures for racetrack pressures. This is where we must separate the theory from the practical application. We all want more grip, but do we really NEED more grip than what is being supplied? Its much like being thirsty and always asking for a larger glass of water only to find yourself with a 55 gallon barrel of water, that you can't maneuver and that you can't drink. So were you really that thirsty? In theory we always want more traction, but do we really need to lower pressure to to get more, or is the traction sufficient to not warrant a pressure change and thus keeping more stability? The answer is a personal preference. For me, I prefer the higher pressures, close to the recommended. Back in the day (when I was fast), I rode 2 up and kept with the front of the pack or lead it through every canyon ride. Never did I slide the tire. Being smooth, having proper throttle control and not being a squid, made for a good fast ride with no traction issues and lots of stability. If a rider, running recommended street pressures, is sliding his tires on the street, while having proper throttle control, he would be in the minority and should reconsider his actions on a public road and his personal safety. That is the point a rider should personalty have the realization he needs to be on the track and not trying to squeeze more from his street tires on the street. Keeping it real, we must grasp that the street and track are 2 different environments, each with its own barriers. Some things that apply to track may not be as important on the street.

Certainly you want to use the recommended tire pressure that is in the owners manual for your bike. There is a reason for that recommendation. Thanks for this information- I had wondered about that too. The higher pressure I imagine would keep the wear in the center of the tire and less spread out. It seems one of the features of the Q2's was the long-wearing compound on the center, so a too-low street pressure would spread the wear beyond the center zone, right? I was thinking only about side wear when lowing the pressure. If you were running low pressure on the street, Riding straight up and still touching the soft sides of a Q2, you certainly would have way to low pressure, go back to the stock pressure. Again, lower pressure= less stability. when you street ride you need stability. There really is not much on the plus side for lowing pressure for the street.

Certainly you want to use the recommended tire pressure that is in the owners manual for your bike. There is a reason for that recommendation. But logic also applies here. if you went lower you would get less stability, and on the street stability is important with all the cracks, seams, stripes and possible holes in the pavement. Running low pressure on an N-Tec tire on the street would be foolish, given the high likelihood of bending a rim over bumps and holes. And with lower pressure on a street tire also comes increased wear. How much wear? not sure, but it will wear quicker and the tread blocks will start cupping sooner, especially on the front which has dynamic forces in one direction only. The rear being more even since it has both breaking and engine forces, thus smoothing out the wear. My feeling is that any increase in grip you are looking for is not worth the loss of stability on the street. Some riders may consider themselves at race pace in the twisties, but honestly this is not the reality, the pace on the twisties (however fast it may seem), is not on par with fast track speeds. The comparison is one of ego's and not corner speed.

Steve, Thank you for all the great info! I have a question concerning the N-Tec Slicks. I've been running the Bridgestone slicks for the past 2 years and while I really like them as far as grip, feel, and wear (to an extent), I keep hearing great things about the Dunlops. I am an advanced rider on an 09 R1. Prior to that I was on an 04 ZX-10R in Italy. I was using the Pirelli's but they wear out way too quickly and just weren't that good compared to the "stones". Any feedback you can give would be appreciated as I'm looking at what to get next, for 2 days at Jennings in March. You will find that the N-Tec Slick is the top of the line tire. I will give you some facts: just last week the track record at Jennings was broken by a Dunlop N-Tec slick. The N-Tec will also last 2 times longer than any other tire (given comparable compounds, bike, and lap times). Certainly the Dunlop N-Tec slicks will be a large step forward from the two tires you mentioned. I recommend the 6680 compound front and rear for NJMP and Jennings. You can't go wrong with that choice. Give them a try. Its better you try them and become more educated and experience, rather than thinking you should have.

The D211GPA is NOT the same tire as the "D211GP Racer" So is that an entirely different tire, or is it equivalent to one of the US tires? Thanks, Kai (I'll be stepping outside while I rant over tires not being the same across the world). Its hard to compare tires from one continent to another. Some tires are manufactured and supplied to certain regions. where are you racing/riding? what tracks?

Bullet, If the problem of tearing was early in the season and it was cold, I could see that happening. We see this early in the season in the US when its cold. The issue is the cold weather conditions. Going to the harder compound often solves that issue.

Thanks for the comment Bullet. The thread started with a link about a D211GPA, but the pic was of a D209GPA. The track in question was Philip Island. D211GPA and D209GPA are both USA made tires. Your posting now mentions "similar issues the UK", yet only UK tires are used in the UK. Are you commenting on the D211GP UK made or the N-Tec slick? Which track did you note this happening?

R6 for track days. Intermediate group, or Advanced group: 3 tire choices - D211GPA D211GP N-Tec slicks. (snip explanation) Awesome Steve. I'll give the D211GPA's a try in the spring (no need to ride around in the snow these days). As for pricing, I have found that the US and EU have seriously different pricing structures. Is the GP-A the same as the ones known as "D211GP Racer" here in Europe? Germany pricing & naming Thanks, again, Kai The D211GPA is NOT the same tire as the "D211GP Racer"

Steve, first this has been really enlightening, thanks for taking the time to do all this explaining! I'm not Josh but I have the same questions. I have an '02 Honda CBR600F4i which I ride on the track and street. I have been using the Sportmax Qualifiers, which are due to be replaced and I was looking at going to the Q2's next because that seemed to be a good track and street tire and the successor to the Qualifier. My track times are 20 sec off the local track record (set by DiSalvo), just getting moved from beginner to intermediate. I also have a question about warmers- I don't have any but want to get some; I see some models with various of temp setting capabilities and simpler one with one temp setting. Is there any real reason to have multiple settings- is this a case of simpler is better? IF you are using the Q and happy with that tire, the next logical step would be to get a Q2. You will notice the performance increase as well as the added stability of the Q2 over the Q. After that go to the D211GPA. There is nothing wrong with the single temp tire warmers. Remember, all the warmer does is put heat in the tire so you don't have have to in the first 2 laps. as long as it does that job, its a good warmer. Don't over complicate things.

The tire in the picture is said to be a D211GPA, when clearly it is a D209GPA. The tire and the picture don't match. The post states it is NOT tearing, when clearly that is tearing. Then at the end of the post, rusty848 notes that "dunlop just come up with new hard front ,it should last longer,but right now its only available for AMA". Its true we came out with a newer front, but totally untrue that it was limited to only the AMA. The tire was made available right after the AMA race at Mid Ohio. Anyone ordering one was not turned away. All this is being talked about with riders from 2 different continents, regarding tracks they don't have in common (philip Island and Mid Ohio), and pictures that don't match statements. Its a masive comparing of apples to oranges. This is just another example of how an urban legend gets started. Bad reports, misleading reports of what is happening, backed up with pictures that are not the right ones. All that is missing is how it was George Bush's fault and you have yourself a great new story. Its no wonder riders get confused with all this incorrect and misleading information going around.

OK, I will jump in. Here is picture of me at the Supebike school around 1988-1989. Riding a school bike during lunch time. I put my girlfriend on the back and took her for a spin. Don't think you students can do this at lunch time. I worked for the school and, well you know, membership has its privilege. BTW: that was such a good ride, I sealed the deal and I married that girl, going on 20 years this July.

There are 4 usable tire choices for track days - Q2 D211GPA D211GP N-Tec slicks. Q2 is the top of the line sport/street tire. Excellent for street riding. You can use it for your first couple of track rides, but the moment you start to get with the program you will want to step up. The D211GPA is the spec tire for the AMA. it is lower cost, and is a great all around tire. The AMA guys are right on the track record with this tire and there is no reason you can't go very fast on it. Use the Med front and rear compounds. The D211GP UK N-Tec, this tire will cost you more, about $125 more than D211GPA. It is good for about 0.5 seconds per lap faster than the D211GPA (depending on the track, may be less at some tracks). This tire will last longer than the D211GPA and you will get more competitive laps from this tire. The increased cost is about the same as the increase in laps. Its a toss up if you are looking at the laps/cost issue. you need to try them both to determine on your bike which is the best bang for the buck. The N-Tec Slicks. Top of the line. Nothing available is better, and I mean NOTHING IS BETTER. Cost about $519 per set, 2011 prices. This tire will last longer and grip better, for more laps, than anything available. All these tires are great choices for track days. You can't go wrong with any of them. I recommend to start at the top (Q2 or D211GPA) and if you like it stay with it. If you desire more as a rider, then step up to the next tire. BTW: the lower 3 tires have the N-Tec construction, the D211GPA does not use the name N-Tec, but is still the N-tec construction. Beginner group I would stick to the D211GPA and keep it simple. Learn to track ride with lots of laps and lots of classroom. The reason for choosing the slick over a tread or DOT tire is performance. The N-Tec slick performs better. But if you are not at the very top of the lap time board you may not be able to feel that grip level. Also you can sell your DOT tires or use them on the street to save street riding cost.

R6 for track days. Intermediate group, or Advanced group: 3 tire choices - D211GPA D211GP N-Tec slicks. The D211GPA is the spec tire for the AMA. it is lower cost, $360 per set, and is a great all around tire. The AMA guys are right on the track record with this tire and there is no reason you can go very fast on it. Use the Med front and rear compounds. The D211GP UK N-Tec, this tire will cost you more, about $476 per set, 2010 pricing. It is good for about 0.5 seconds per lap faster than the D211GPA (depending on the track, may be less at some tracks). This tire will last longer than the D211GPA and you will get more competitive laps from this tire. The increased cost is about the same as the increase in laps. Its a toss up if you are looking at the laps/cost issue. you need to try them both to determine on your bike which is the best bang for the buck. The N-Tec Slicks. Top of the line. Nothing available is better, and I mean NOTHING IS BETTER. Cost about $496 per set, 2010 prices. This tire will last longer and grip better, for more laps, than anything available. All these tires are great choices fro track days. You can't go wrong with any of them. I recommend to start at the top and if you like it stay with it. If you desire more as a rider, then step up to the next tire. BTW all these 3 tires have the N-Tec construction, the D211GPA does not use the name N-Tec, but is still the N-tec construction. Beginner group I would stick to the D211GPA and keep it simple. Learn to track ride with lots of laps and lots of classroom.