Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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In what area is your confidence shaken? Is it something with the bike itself? Worries about traffic or other riders? Have you been off the bike for a while? Did something that you thought was true turn out to be untrue?
Help us get an idea of where you confidence has suffered, that should make it easier for us to offer suggestions.
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Hhhhmm.... Assuming warmed up tires and a non-slippery pavement, like a track, as well - the answer should be most probably NOT.
But still, it doesnt avoid thoe SRs...
Essentially, would like to quantify the conditions for AQAP and/or as the situations would allow.
There are times / situations where quick turn is not practical.
But, I bet you can come up with most of them on your own.
What sort of SURFACE conditions might require a less aggressive turn rate?
What sort of TIRE conditions?
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When y'all come out to Miller Motorsports park I'd be more than happy to come work some corners!! Let me know on here or at thomasdark AT gmail DOT com
... sweet.
td
I think it would be better to email Trevor directly on this, to make sure he has your info.
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Power Commander is probably the ticket to help with the "lurch" you describe, but a couple of other small things can be checked or adjusted which might help:
Check the amount of play in the throttle. If you have a lot of slack in the cable it can make the throttle response late and jerky.
Consider increasing your idle RPM, that can reduce the "chain lash" feeling when you come back on the throttle in a turn. (Be cautious on turn entries for the first lap or so after you do this, though - a higher idle speed can make you come into a corner a little faster than expectd until you get used to it.) I think last time this was discussed someone recommended to increase it 500rpm, then try it, then try another 500 rpm, and see how it feels.
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The discussion on trail braking seeems to come up on the forum about once every six months. If you do a search for trail braking you will find tons of results. Here are a couple, for example:
http://forums.superb...+trail +braking
http://forums.superb...king#entry25553
And here is something Keith wrote in response to a question about trail braking, it pretty much covers it all:
>>>
On trailing the brakes...the first thing you need to realize is that you should always be trailing off the brakes. Leaned over or straight up, your brake release is that moment where your entry speed is being set. Any abrupt release is going to be less accurate and usually slower than a well executed, tapered, gradual release.
As we watch world competitors we see brake trailing but not everywhere and not all the time. In addition, the idea of trailing the brakes 'to the apex' has almost completely been abandoned in favor of earlier and earlier releasing of the front brake lever. Why? So they can get back to gas. One of the reasons James Toseland couldn't cut it in MotoGP was that he was taking advantage of the ultra high tech handling, brakes and tires and trailing the brakes in late. Later than everyone else. At Laguna Seca, for example, he was on the brakes 2 to 3 meters longer than Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo and Pedrosa. That put him in about 15th place, from my observations. Just a tiny bit of time, really just hundredths of a second per turn, was enough to do it. His drives off the turn were as good as anyone elses.
The reality of the situation is that any bike will continue to slow even after the brake is released and the throttle is being opened up. Depending on the corner at Laguna Seca, between 12% and 37% throttle is needed to even begin to bring the speed upward. Here's another way of saying it: the bike is still slowing down after brake release and, in some turns, the speed doesn't begin to increase until up to 1/3 throttle. It is very interesting to see this from the data acquisition I have which was collected from the winning bike in Daytona Sportbike there this past year.
When I first described and showed trail braking in the original "A Twist of the Wrist" book back in 1983, it was the first time it had been photographed and graphed out for motorcyclists. It is a must-do technique for decreasing radius turns. Those are the kind of turns it makes the most sense to begin experimenting with it, for someone who is trying to get the feel for it.
What I find most interesting is that once the rider's feel for the bike is up to the point they are confident enough with all the other basics to begin to experiment with their riding, you don't have to even mention it, they begin to find the places to apply it quite naturally.
There is much, much more to the subject of brking. Many things happen with the bike and the rider depending on what kind of corner it is and whether they are finishing the braking straight up or leaned over.
There is a strange misperception in the world that we tell everyone to finish their braking while they are straight up and down. The truth is, in the 32 years of the school we've never said that in any of the briefings.
As a coach, if you are following someone and they are dragging the brake way down to the apex and you clearly see they could be on the gas much earlier, what should you do? Tell them to keep that up, or, ask them to release the brake earlier and get back to the gas?
On the other hand, if you see someone getting in too hot, you could suggest that they trail the brake in. You could. However, if you also see some other basic technical skill that is lacking, the smart coach would go after that instead. For example, if you see someone trailing the brake and slowly turning the bike causing him to run wide, what would you have him work on? trailing the brake more and continue to add lean angle, or, demonstrate for him that if he got the bike flicked in a little quicker he wouldn't have that run wide problem?
There is a balance to all of this. If the rider isn't comfortable getting the bike turned quickly, it influences many core-skill aspects of their riding in the negative. This is where we put our attention at CSS. Once the rider can genuinely turn the bike with no fear (because there is no reason to fear it) then we have a major hurdle overcome and we can move on to other techniques, if they will be a benefit.
We know of some very high quality riders who only trail the brakes into decreasing radius corners and not at all in other turns. They put their attention on getting the bike pointed towards exit and back to the gas as early as possible. They have lap records and championships. What does that prove? That it can be done with understanding and practice. Does that make it better than always trailing the brakes? No. It only means that it can be done and done to very good results.
Keith
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One point, however, there would be a limit to the lean rate for the Quick Turn, right? Wouldnt it be risky that if a corner is indeed blown, to try increasing the Flick rate? Similarly for Lean Angles?
You mean, as opposed to NOT turning it quickly, and running off the track?
Yes, of course there is a physical limit to how far you can lean the bike, before you start hitting hard parts. Hook turn and quick turn help you minimize lean angle, as would hanging off; and of course another thing that helps reduce the lean angle is to SLOW DOWN, which might be prudent and/or necessary if you've already made a big error (like a missed shift) entering the corner.
You also mentioned it might be risky to try increasing the RATE of steering... what risk do you see in steering the bike more quickly?
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Faster rate of "Quick Turn", a quick application of the "Hook Turn" to get you on your line and both the " Wide View" and "3 Step" would be useful in keeping that line on the pavement
Tyler
Excellent, well done! And if the turn is the first in a series you could also use the Level 3 understanding of attack angles to help adjust the following turns.
Of course, staying relaxed on the bars throughout (not always easy when you've made an error or had an unexpected shifting problem!) will help enormously in keeping control of the bike and not compounding the problem.
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any other technique you could recommend for recovering from a missed shift while cornering? Yes - good throttle control should be one of them...
Well, if you overshot your turnpoint (which is quite likely) and ended up turning the bike LATER than you originally planned, what skill(s) could you use to get the back onto a workable line?
And, what visual skill(s) could you use to make your new plan on how to complete the turn?
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I think the basic premise in this discussion is that it would be handy to be able to use the clutch skillfully to recover from an error - like a missed shift in a turn.
But, there are also a lot of OTHER skills that also come in handy when you blow a turn and have to recover.
So, my two cents is that putting in some racing hours on a mini bike, like an NSR50, is a great way to encounter a wide variety of racing situations and gain experience in handling them, at lower speeds on a (potentially) more forgiving bike, at low cost and in a friendly environment. Personally I was a lot more willing to try some stuff, make and recover from errors, and push limits in my NSR races than I ever would be on the BMW. I never crashed, but I did have some goofy things happen that gave me a LOT more confidence in my ability to recover without falling down - like having my throttle not release going into a corner! (That's a situation where a quick hand on the clutch is valuable!)
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So, just a general question - what type of motorcycle engine do you find most fun to ride? Twins or inline fours? Single cylinder? 2 stroke or 4 stroke? Big loud cruiser motors?
What do you like best and why?
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Thanks for the link Brad. And I do know what you mean, Fox seems to be their own worst enemy.
I may be hopelessly optimistic but so far NBC Sports seems to be doing ok with F1 coverage. I even noticed a new show called F1 36 where they follow a driver for 36 hours...I havent seen it yet (starts this weekend) but it has to be better than "R U Faster than a Redneck"...
LMAO
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I know this has been suggested to you before - but have you had a chance to read A Twist of the Wrist II or watch the DVD? Right from the beginning the book talks about Survival Reactions, what they are, what triggers them, and how to overcome them. All of the errors you describe stem from either Survival Reactions (grabbing the brake, chopping the throttle, frozen on the steering, stiffening up the arms, target fixing, etc.) or lack of data on how to control the bike (no understanding of good throttle control) etc., all of which are throughly described in the book or DVD. You can learn how to recognize teh SRs and how to overcome them.
Thank you for you kind compliments about my riding - I can go fast and still be very much in control, and I got ALL my education from the California Superbike School - I started riding as an adult, and came to school with very little riding experience and even less confidence, now I am winning races.
You are asking how to learn from others' mistakes, and here is the answer: read Twist II, it will give you ALL of the data. (Of course coming to school would do it, too, but I know you mentioned that is not an option for you at the moment.) I know you are willing to read and think these things through, you have proven it already with your participation on this board - and Twist will present all the information in a sensible, straighforward manner, much easier to follow than asking a series of questions here, where the replies will be fragmented and not as organized.
If you are impatient to get reading right away, you can download A Twist of the Wrist (the first book) electronically now, it is available as an eBook, here is a link to it on Amazon.
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HF, no access to dirt bikes here.They aren't sold here.I will try lean while simultaneously making progress with throttle control.
Oh! Where do you live?
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I guess if you simply want to drag your pegs, push the bike under you and keep pushing until the peg touches. I wouldn't do it, but to each their own.
This is a way to do it. If you push the bike down under you (essentially doing the OPPOSITE of hanging off) you can use MORE lean angle for a given speed around a turn, and eventually you will run out of lean angle and scrape the pegs. Or lose traction and fall down.
As others have said, use caution here. By INCREASING your lean angle, you are making your suspension work a lot harder, you are asking a lot of your tires, and you are taking a big chance of hitting a hard part and having it lever your rear tire off the ground resulting in a crash. Additionally, if you are aggressive with the throttle while at max lean, you can highside the bike and that is a very nasty way to fall - it can toss you up high and/or the bike can come down on you or slide over you, not pretty. If you are at max lean and hit a bump, or abruptly let off the gas, the suspension can compress and slam the peg or other parts into the pavement and cause a crash. Certainly it is possible to scrape your toes, pegs, even mufflers without crashing but the ODDS of crashing when riding at max lean are a quite a lot higher so please do be careful if you experiment with this, wear plenty of protective gear, make sure you are not riding alone, and ride in a safe area with no cars.
If getting comfortable with extreme lean angles is your goal, consider playing around in dirt on a small dirt bike. On those you can push the bike WAY down under you, and they are much less inclined to highside (they would normally just slide out instead), plus you can potentially have a softer surface to land on and no cars to worry about.
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I rode a friend's bike yesterday.I found - I achieved the same lean angle when seated upright and when i kinda hung off.How do i properly hang off? A sequence of instructions please.
What i did - Braked, downshifted, ( was a right turn ) got right cheek off, countersteered and leaned the bike in.Was a little messy.I think i charged the turn.I don't have a bike to practice with, so i have very little seat time.
However, my friend said i leaned the bike the same whether i hung off or not, and there was half a foot to go before the pegs scraped.How do i confidently go to max lean while hanging and also when upright?
You mention that you got your butt off to the side, what about your head and shoulders? Where did they end up in relation to the center of the windscreen? The idea is to get your body's center of mass off to the side, so that you can reduce the lean angle of the bike, which helps your overall traction - or allows you to get through the same turn faster without running out of lean angle.
A very common and very typical error is for a rider to hang their butt WAY off to the inside, but then cross head and shoulders back over the bike, ending up with no real change in the position of the center of mass. We call this being "crossed up" on the bike. If you were turning left, and your butt was off to the left but your head was to the RIGHT of the center of the windscreen, that would be a crossed up position and your lean angle could end up being the same as if you didn't hang off at all.
Another consideration as you experiment with hanging off - some riders can lean the bike to a certain lean angle comfortably and they consistently lean it to that point. But, when they start hanging off, their head is now down and to the inside - and sometimes that makes then FEEL like they are leaned over more (probably because their head is closer to the ground than before!) so they are suddenly not willing to lean the bike over as far as they were before - or they want to brace the inside arm to hold themselves up. It's a different sensation and a different point point of view (literally) so it takes a bit of getting used to! Just something to be aware of as you play around with hanging off.
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The only road i could practice on had a few fallen leaves on it.Otherwise, it is good tarmac.Like i said, i want to be able to lean the bike, regardless of whether i can use it right away or not.
i regularly cream people on roads because they want to use max lean angle and not the optimum way to carry themselves and the bike thru the corner.
If you understand 10% of the book, u'll be practicing much more than just using up your lean angles imho.
still skeptical imho that you hav read and undersstood the book/dvd
Easy there, everyone has different priorities in their riding. Keep in mind, lean angle is one of the things that can tie up a lot of a rider's attention. It is, in fact, one of the four standard Survival Reaction triggers - see page 3 in A Twist of the Wrist II.
So, ktk_ace, although it may not be an issue for you, in your riding, at this moment, it may be taking up enough of Stroker's attention that it must be handled before he is willing to look at other things. That is an important aspect of the individualized coaching at the school - if there is some particular thing absorbing all or most of a rider's attention, that thing must be addressed before he/ she will have any real interest in learning anything else.
Your point about using up all available lean angle NOT being optimum is well taken, but every rider is different, and our fears/priorities/skillset are not only different from each other but also changing as we learn new things about controlling a motorcycle! This is a friendly forum so please do try to be patient and let's help Stroker sort through this concern.
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Keith is at most of the US schools, and Dylan is at most of them, too; I've never yet attended a school that didn't have at least one of them there.
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I see a whole lot of turning in early and inside, missing the apexes, and late on the throttle, all of which leads to running wide on the exit, killing the exit drive, with the result that the other riders pass him on the exits of the turns.
This rider is charging up the inside of other riders, braking late and carrying more entry speed but paying for it on the exits where the other riders smoke him and then carry their additional momentum all the way down the straights.
Later in the video he starts choosing better turn points and things improve, he doesn't run as wide and doesn't get passed so much.
Does anyone remember from Twist what thing a rider is most likey "trying to do" that leads to early turn-ins? What typically causes this SR?
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Welcome! Tell your wife the course will make you a safer rider, maybe that will help.
Good luck in the persuasion department and hope to see you soon at a school!
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You should be able to find a schedule on the wera site - if it is not up yet, look for a prior date at the same track - WERA is usually pretty consistent about keeping the same daily schedule at a given track. Different tracks vary a bit though.
Yes, one race per class per day. With a 600, though, you have a lot of choices - C superstock, Superbike, B superstock and Superbike, Senior Superbike middleweight (if your over 40). Possibly even Formula 1 but you'd have 1000s in there and I wouldn't really recommend that for a first race weekend.
I do not know if your bikes are eligible for superstock, but you could ask that on the WERA board.
Usually there are two 10 minute practices in the morning, and that's all you get.
You need to know the flags before you come, the rider meetings are NOT informative like a school or track day. They will expect you know all procedures and will just notify you of any unusual track conditions or split races or schedule changes, the meetings are short.
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Well, I'll try this another way... If there is anyone here who is, or was, racing with WERA and who would be willing to share their wisdom, you have my attention
. I can't for the life of me figure out how I've been talked into this, but a friend has convinced me we should try some WERA novice racing 
. Our local AMA pro has offered to give us his advice, but I don't mind hearing from others about what's worked for them; especially those things which may be unique to a given race organization. If I do sign up to race then I'll be on my newly acquired AMA Supersport-spec 2009 Kawasaki ZX-6R; I think that puts me in C Superstock (or Superbike) Novice. My wife thinks I've lost my mind... she's probably right I race currently with WERA, I may be able to answer some questions, feel free to ask away.
Do you have a race license with anyone currently? WERA does accept licenses from some other organizations, but if you have never raced before, you either need to attend a new racer school with them or get an exemption based on something else you have attended, like CodeRace. You can't just show up and race, you do need a race license. Often they have a school the day before the races, so you can do school and a new racer race on Saturday and race as a Provisional Novice Sunday. You are supposed to wear an orange jacket or orange tshirt to identify yourself as a Provisional Novice so everyone knows to give you a little extra room.
WERA does a good job running their events, very professional and very organized. The rulebook is online at www.wera.com and there is a terrific forum, which has a whole "New Racers" section where you can read tons of info and post questions.
http://forums.13x.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=12
The 600 class is usually very large and very competitive. Often the turnout is big enough that they run Novices and Experts in two completely separate races, instead of just two waves. Sometimes the 750 class (B Superbike) is smaller, you are eligible to run in that, too and it coudl end up less crowded.
One piece of advice I'd offer - run at least two classes. It's easy for nerves to get to you in the first race and cause errors (dropping the clutch on the start, missing shifts, whatever) so it's nice to be able to go back out and run again after you've shaken off the "first race" jitters. Also you usually have an option of doing a practice start during practice (on your own), that is always a good idea since the first turn often comes at you a lot differently on the race start than it does while lapping or when entering from the pits. If you do a race school they will usually do a practice start as a group.
Reading the rulebook is a good idea, it gives you full description of new racer requirements, bike requirements, etc.
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I had a chance at Laguna Seca to work on the Braking bike with Mike. It was a fantastic opportunity to work on Cobie's point about not looking in front of the bike while braking......MASSIVE DIFFERENCE. Being able to maintain a wide view while braking hard really increased my confidence level.
Excellent point - I remember when I did the brake bike I was SHOCKED at how hard I could brake, and how fast I could stop. It really, REALLY increased my confidence in braking really hard and when I was eventually confronted with an emergency, more than a year later, I was able to brake super hard with no loss of control and no hesitation, thereby avoiding a collision without any drama.
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Cobie;
On the track I think it becomes more intuitive. You exit a corner and as you accelerate you also lower your torso down as low as you can and begin to upshift. Your foot moves down (as you did with your upper body) on the lever so your moving body parts in the same direction.
When you decelerate you may begin to rise up to better see your RP's and having your foot follow in the same direction with your downshifts becomes second nature.
At least that's how I see it.
Rain
I totally agree with this, and that is also how I remember to shift the right way when going back to GP after riding a standard shift bike.
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HF, short shift ( to me ) means skipping gears through the box, ie instead of 1,2,3 going 1,3 and not running second at all.But shifting early can also be considered " short " in some circles.Won't rapidly rolling on and off when going three gears up cause the bike to be unsettled? The roll off's can be progressively smaller i suspect? As at say 7k rpm in second, you roll off say 15%, grab third, roll off 10%, grab fourth, roll of 5-8%, grab fifth, all in the space of 2-3 seconds.
Can some one try this and let us know if i am correct? ( Don't have a bike ) Also if Alfred's single roll of theory works as well?
McKeen, rolling off when downshifting is contrary to all i have done in my life.How is it that you say you can roll off for downshifts when nearly everyone blips? .
As far as I know all bikes have sequential shift and here is no way to skip gears.
It would not require much roll-on, roll-off between gears, the pressure is put on the gears by strong acceleration or deceleration. You just have to create a moment where the pressure is off the gears to get the shift - or else pull in the clutch to unload the transmission - and it only takes a small throttle on-off action to do that. And yes it would be less for each shift as the RPM will keep dropping as you get to higher gears.
I think T-McKeen was referring to downshifting at the moment of roll-off. If you are ON the gas, then let OFF the gas, right at the moment of that roll off you can downshift very easily.
However, usually when you are downshifting you are slowing down (preparing for a turn or to stop) and thus are already OFF the gas, in which case a throttle blip is usually needed to match RPMs to get the downshift without the clutch. (At very low RPMs there is so little load on the transmission it may downshift with no blip. ) The goal is to use the throttle to unload the transmission (which is what the clutch does) and if you are ON the gas to begin within and let off, it is unloaded enough to shift, you just have to do it before the RPMs fall off much.
. Our local AMA pro has offered to give us his advice, but I don't mind hearing from others about what's worked for them; especially those things which may be unique to a given race organization. If I do sign up to race then I'll be on my newly acquired AMA Supersport-spec 2009 Kawasaki ZX-6R; I think that puts me in C Superstock (or Superbike) Novice. My wife thinks I've lost my mind... she's probably right
Careers In Cornering?
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
A very good start would be to take a look at this thread:
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3660
In it, Cobie gives a pretty comprehensive description of the requirements and expectations for coaching, and a link to the application.
Personally, I started as a student. I had a blast at school, starting doing track days, came back for more levels of CSS, got faster, came to more CSS schools, then eventually started racing and then tried out for a coach position. Reading the coach biographies on the Superbike School website will give you an idea of how other coaches got into it.