Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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HF, no access to dirt bikes here.They aren't sold here.I will try lean while simultaneously making progress with throttle control.
Oh! Where do you live?
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I guess if you simply want to drag your pegs, push the bike under you and keep pushing until the peg touches. I wouldn't do it, but to each their own.
This is a way to do it. If you push the bike down under you (essentially doing the OPPOSITE of hanging off) you can use MORE lean angle for a given speed around a turn, and eventually you will run out of lean angle and scrape the pegs. Or lose traction and fall down.
As others have said, use caution here. By INCREASING your lean angle, you are making your suspension work a lot harder, you are asking a lot of your tires, and you are taking a big chance of hitting a hard part and having it lever your rear tire off the ground resulting in a crash. Additionally, if you are aggressive with the throttle while at max lean, you can highside the bike and that is a very nasty way to fall - it can toss you up high and/or the bike can come down on you or slide over you, not pretty. If you are at max lean and hit a bump, or abruptly let off the gas, the suspension can compress and slam the peg or other parts into the pavement and cause a crash. Certainly it is possible to scrape your toes, pegs, even mufflers without crashing but the ODDS of crashing when riding at max lean are a quite a lot higher so please do be careful if you experiment with this, wear plenty of protective gear, make sure you are not riding alone, and ride in a safe area with no cars.
If getting comfortable with extreme lean angles is your goal, consider playing around in dirt on a small dirt bike. On those you can push the bike WAY down under you, and they are much less inclined to highside (they would normally just slide out instead), plus you can potentially have a softer surface to land on and no cars to worry about.
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I rode a friend's bike yesterday.I found - I achieved the same lean angle when seated upright and when i kinda hung off.How do i properly hang off? A sequence of instructions please.
What i did - Braked, downshifted, ( was a right turn ) got right cheek off, countersteered and leaned the bike in.Was a little messy.I think i charged the turn.I don't have a bike to practice with, so i have very little seat time.
However, my friend said i leaned the bike the same whether i hung off or not, and there was half a foot to go before the pegs scraped.How do i confidently go to max lean while hanging and also when upright?
You mention that you got your butt off to the side, what about your head and shoulders? Where did they end up in relation to the center of the windscreen? The idea is to get your body's center of mass off to the side, so that you can reduce the lean angle of the bike, which helps your overall traction - or allows you to get through the same turn faster without running out of lean angle.
A very common and very typical error is for a rider to hang their butt WAY off to the inside, but then cross head and shoulders back over the bike, ending up with no real change in the position of the center of mass. We call this being "crossed up" on the bike. If you were turning left, and your butt was off to the left but your head was to the RIGHT of the center of the windscreen, that would be a crossed up position and your lean angle could end up being the same as if you didn't hang off at all.
Another consideration as you experiment with hanging off - some riders can lean the bike to a certain lean angle comfortably and they consistently lean it to that point. But, when they start hanging off, their head is now down and to the inside - and sometimes that makes then FEEL like they are leaned over more (probably because their head is closer to the ground than before!) so they are suddenly not willing to lean the bike over as far as they were before - or they want to brace the inside arm to hold themselves up. It's a different sensation and a different point point of view (literally) so it takes a bit of getting used to! Just something to be aware of as you play around with hanging off.
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The only road i could practice on had a few fallen leaves on it.Otherwise, it is good tarmac.Like i said, i want to be able to lean the bike, regardless of whether i can use it right away or not.
i regularly cream people on roads because they want to use max lean angle and not the optimum way to carry themselves and the bike thru the corner.
If you understand 10% of the book, u'll be practicing much more than just using up your lean angles imho.
still skeptical imho that you hav read and undersstood the book/dvd
Easy there, everyone has different priorities in their riding. Keep in mind, lean angle is one of the things that can tie up a lot of a rider's attention. It is, in fact, one of the four standard Survival Reaction triggers - see page 3 in A Twist of the Wrist II.
So, ktk_ace, although it may not be an issue for you, in your riding, at this moment, it may be taking up enough of Stroker's attention that it must be handled before he is willing to look at other things. That is an important aspect of the individualized coaching at the school - if there is some particular thing absorbing all or most of a rider's attention, that thing must be addressed before he/ she will have any real interest in learning anything else.
Your point about using up all available lean angle NOT being optimum is well taken, but every rider is different, and our fears/priorities/skillset are not only different from each other but also changing as we learn new things about controlling a motorcycle! This is a friendly forum so please do try to be patient and let's help Stroker sort through this concern.
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Keith is at most of the US schools, and Dylan is at most of them, too; I've never yet attended a school that didn't have at least one of them there.
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I see a whole lot of turning in early and inside, missing the apexes, and late on the throttle, all of which leads to running wide on the exit, killing the exit drive, with the result that the other riders pass him on the exits of the turns.
This rider is charging up the inside of other riders, braking late and carrying more entry speed but paying for it on the exits where the other riders smoke him and then carry their additional momentum all the way down the straights.
Later in the video he starts choosing better turn points and things improve, he doesn't run as wide and doesn't get passed so much.
Does anyone remember from Twist what thing a rider is most likey "trying to do" that leads to early turn-ins? What typically causes this SR?
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Welcome! Tell your wife the course will make you a safer rider, maybe that will help.
Good luck in the persuasion department and hope to see you soon at a school!
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You should be able to find a schedule on the wera site - if it is not up yet, look for a prior date at the same track - WERA is usually pretty consistent about keeping the same daily schedule at a given track. Different tracks vary a bit though.
Yes, one race per class per day. With a 600, though, you have a lot of choices - C superstock, Superbike, B superstock and Superbike, Senior Superbike middleweight (if your over 40). Possibly even Formula 1 but you'd have 1000s in there and I wouldn't really recommend that for a first race weekend.
I do not know if your bikes are eligible for superstock, but you could ask that on the WERA board.
Usually there are two 10 minute practices in the morning, and that's all you get.
You need to know the flags before you come, the rider meetings are NOT informative like a school or track day. They will expect you know all procedures and will just notify you of any unusual track conditions or split races or schedule changes, the meetings are short.
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Well, I'll try this another way... If there is anyone here who is, or was, racing with WERA and who would be willing to share their wisdom, you have my attention
. I can't for the life of me figure out how I've been talked into this, but a friend has convinced me we should try some WERA novice racing 
. Our local AMA pro has offered to give us his advice, but I don't mind hearing from others about what's worked for them; especially those things which may be unique to a given race organization. If I do sign up to race then I'll be on my newly acquired AMA Supersport-spec 2009 Kawasaki ZX-6R; I think that puts me in C Superstock (or Superbike) Novice. My wife thinks I've lost my mind... she's probably right 
I race currently with WERA, I may be able to answer some questions, feel free to ask away.
Do you have a race license with anyone currently? WERA does accept licenses from some other organizations, but if you have never raced before, you either need to attend a new racer school with them or get an exemption based on something else you have attended, like CodeRace. You can't just show up and race, you do need a race license. Often they have a school the day before the races, so you can do school and a new racer race on Saturday and race as a Provisional Novice Sunday. You are supposed to wear an orange jacket or orange tshirt to identify yourself as a Provisional Novice so everyone knows to give you a little extra room.
WERA does a good job running their events, very professional and very organized. The rulebook is online at www.wera.com and there is a terrific forum, which has a whole "New Racers" section where you can read tons of info and post questions.
http://forums.13x.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=12
The 600 class is usually very large and very competitive. Often the turnout is big enough that they run Novices and Experts in two completely separate races, instead of just two waves. Sometimes the 750 class (B Superbike) is smaller, you are eligible to run in that, too and it coudl end up less crowded.
One piece of advice I'd offer - run at least two classes. It's easy for nerves to get to you in the first race and cause errors (dropping the clutch on the start, missing shifts, whatever) so it's nice to be able to go back out and run again after you've shaken off the "first race" jitters. Also you usually have an option of doing a practice start during practice (on your own), that is always a good idea since the first turn often comes at you a lot differently on the race start than it does while lapping or when entering from the pits. If you do a race school they will usually do a practice start as a group.
Reading the rulebook is a good idea, it gives you full description of new racer requirements, bike requirements, etc.
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I had a chance at Laguna Seca to work on the Braking bike with Mike. It was a fantastic opportunity to work on Cobie's point about not looking in front of the bike while braking......MASSIVE DIFFERENCE. Being able to maintain a wide view while braking hard really increased my confidence level.
Excellent point - I remember when I did the brake bike I was SHOCKED at how hard I could brake, and how fast I could stop. It really, REALLY increased my confidence in braking really hard and when I was eventually confronted with an emergency, more than a year later, I was able to brake super hard with no loss of control and no hesitation, thereby avoiding a collision without any drama.
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Cobie;
On the track I think it becomes more intuitive. You exit a corner and as you accelerate you also lower your torso down as low as you can and begin to upshift. Your foot moves down (as you did with your upper body) on the lever so your moving body parts in the same direction.
When you decelerate you may begin to rise up to better see your RP's and having your foot follow in the same direction with your downshifts becomes second nature.
At least that's how I see it.
Rain
I totally agree with this, and that is also how I remember to shift the right way when going back to GP after riding a standard shift bike.
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HF, short shift ( to me ) means skipping gears through the box, ie instead of 1,2,3 going 1,3 and not running second at all.But shifting early can also be considered " short " in some circles.Won't rapidly rolling on and off when going three gears up cause the bike to be unsettled? The roll off's can be progressively smaller i suspect? As at say 7k rpm in second, you roll off say 15%, grab third, roll off 10%, grab fourth, roll of 5-8%, grab fifth, all in the space of 2-3 seconds.
Can some one try this and let us know if i am correct? ( Don't have a bike ) Also if Alfred's single roll of theory works as well?
McKeen, rolling off when downshifting is contrary to all i have done in my life.How is it that you say you can roll off for downshifts when nearly everyone blips? .
As far as I know all bikes have sequential shift and here is no way to skip gears.
It would not require much roll-on, roll-off between gears, the pressure is put on the gears by strong acceleration or deceleration. You just have to create a moment where the pressure is off the gears to get the shift - or else pull in the clutch to unload the transmission - and it only takes a small throttle on-off action to do that. And yes it would be less for each shift as the RPM will keep dropping as you get to higher gears.
I think T-McKeen was referring to downshifting at the moment of roll-off. If you are ON the gas, then let OFF the gas, right at the moment of that roll off you can downshift very easily.
However, usually when you are downshifting you are slowing down (preparing for a turn or to stop) and thus are already OFF the gas, in which case a throttle blip is usually needed to match RPMs to get the downshift without the clutch. (At very low RPMs there is so little load on the transmission it may downshift with no blip. ) The goal is to use the throttle to unload the transmission (which is what the clutch does) and if you are ON the gas to begin within and let off, it is unloaded enough to shift, you just have to do it before the RPMs fall off much.
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SO if i want to go from second to fifth, how would i do it?
Hm, we may have a difference in definition of short shift. To me, short shifting means shifting early, before it is really necessary - in other words, shifting at low rpm. Often done if you want to get an upshift done early, possibly before you lean the bike in a corner, or maybe if you want to NOT be in the peak powerband in a corner.
If you are talking about shifting from 2nd up to 5th, you would shift three times rapidly, with a quick roll-off for each shift, and rolling back on in between. It can be done very fast clutchless, but I don't think you can do it without a throttle roll on and back off between each shift. I'll have to give it a try.
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Sure. Takes less roll-off.
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As I reflect on how Ive taken those turns - quick turn and a deeper angle meant having an early apex in spite of using the school's TP. As I review the TOTW2 book - the solution (which I guess my coach was also trying to say) - use LESS lean angle, hence, a shorter time pressure are applied on the bars.
Well done, good job thinking that all through.
So, does having more control over your quick turn give you an additional tool to solve the early apex problem you had in that turn? Can you think of situations where that might be useful?
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Err, sorry to barge in but, AFAIK,
1. Clutchless upshift - Any rpm, decrease throttle slightly and shift.
2. Clutchless downshift - Any rpm, blip and shift.
Am i wrong?
No, you are not wrong.
If you are responding to Alfred's post above, where he is talking about shifting at lower RPMs, he is just talking about WHILE LEARNING to do the throttle blip or clutchless shifting, that is easier to do it smoothly in higher gears at lower RPMs. Trying to get a smooth clutchless downshift from second to first gear at high RPM is tougher than getting a 5th gear to 4th gear downshift at 4,000 rpm. Does that makes sense?
1. Clutchless upshift - Any rpm, decrease throttle slightly and shift.
Incidentally, the amount you have to roll off for an upshift varies from bike to bike, it can be more than a slight decrease. On my racebike, for example, I have to roll off almost to the stop to get it to shift at high RPM, which took a while to get used to!
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Yeah I would love to attend the CSS classes one day and get some track time in, but I'm just trying to graduate at the moment. Another question on downshifting; I've never tried it on purpose and I'm not sure I've ever done it by accident either, but does anyone preload their shifter for downshifting? I know I do it to upshift as often as I remember, and as soon as the clutch is pulled in enough it goes into the higher gear.
I'm told that pre-loading the shifter is not good for the bike. Maybe someone else can chime in about exactly why it's detrimental but Will (who maintains the school fleet) tells us not to do it, it's hard on the bike. On the BMW, it also can confuse the quickshifter so it won't shift properly.
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Personally I almost never use first on the track. It's tough to roll the gas on smoothly in first, easy to overpower the rear tire and slide, and easy to run out of gear while still leaned over. Also shifting down to first carries the risk of getting neutral accidentally, which REALLY blows the turn. Second generally has plenty of torque to get through a slow speed turn just fine, and is much easier to manage smoothly.
If, however, I was setting up a pass on a slower rider that held up my entry speed in a very slow turn, I might drop down to first (on a 1000cc bike) to get a monster drive out of the corner and pass. But I'd be sure to square off the corner to get a straight-as-possible drive and be prepared to shift quickly before I ran out of gear!
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Hmmmm......there is a break in communication somewhere then because I was told I needed the 1250.00 deposit prior to class and that this was not a imprint of your card.
Probably best to call the office and speak to someone there about this - maybe we are talking about different things - there IS a deposit required at some point prior to the school to secure your spot, I think it is around 50%; that is partial payment on the school itself and that is different from the bike damage deposit. The card imprint for the bike damage deposit, as far as I know, is taken in person AT the school, when you sign in on that day.
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Riders will choose different lines based on their own strengths and weaknesses, and the characteristics of their bike. As you say, there is no "ideal line" that is perfect for everyone.
Here is a quote from Twist II:
"The line that allows the throttle to be applied, exactly by the rule, is an ideal line."
So, yes, it is certainly OK to change your turn point if the one you are using is causing you to violate the throttle control rule, which it sounds like it was, and you solved that problem in a reasonable way.
BUT, you asked if there are any disadvantages to solving it that way, so let's think this out. If I understand you correctly, you were using a LATER turn point to correct an early apex due to quick turning the bike too much (leaning it over too far), hence the recommendation that you press less on the bar or for a shorter period. If that is wrong please correct me, but if that IS what is happening, here is a question:
What is a possible DISADVANTAGE of using a later turn point and a more dramatic quick turn, versus using an earlier turn point and not turning the bike as much? (Let's assume your RATE of quick turn doesn't change, just the AMOUNT you turn the bike.) Does the lean angle change? How about the entry speed?
(If it helps, think of an extreme example of a very late turnpoint, and what you would have to change to still make the turn.)
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I managed to pull off a super smooth clutchless upshift today from 2nd to 3rd gear followed by a really smooth downshift from 2nd to 3rd using the "blip" technique. Most of my previous experiments were in first and second gear at lower speeds so I think I'm making some progress hopefully! My bike tends to give me problems switching between 1st and 2nd either upshifting or downshifting at lower speeds.
It is MUCH easier to get smooth upshifts and downshifts in higher gears. Although I do clutchless downshifts 99% of the time, I am cstill cautious about going down to 1st gear clutchless - it is just really hard to do it smoothly and really easy to slide the bike tire going into 1st. I'm sure you will find it exponentially easier to get smooth shifts playing with 3rd and 4th gear (or 5th) instead of 1st and 2nd.
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Ummmm no.... if time is allotted to go the rest room, personal phone calls, smokers... ect... there is time to put gas in, check pressure and so on. CSS is not the military, lets be realistic here.
If you have an expectation of having time for personal phone calls, taking smoke breaks, etc., you would be much happier at single day schools.
I am a coach at the school, and I can tell you, in a 2 day camp you do go directly from track, to a short debrief with your coach, then right to class, and everything is situated to where even the walking distance from one to the other is as small as possible. Really the only break you have is at lunch.
It is correct that for 2 day camps you must ride the BMW. It does save considerable time not allowing personal bikes - for one thing, it completely eliminates tech inspection, which takes more than an hour in the morning and requires 2-3 staff (usually coaches) to run. At tech inspection all personal bikes are checked, tire pressure is set, and many bikes need lights taped, etc.; some people prep their bikes but many do not. With school bikes everything is prepped prior to the school. I can tell you from personal experience it definitely does take riders with their own bikes longer to get where they need to be - they need to park farther away, and there is a fair amount of fussing with the bike that happens for whatever reason.
An experienced track day rider might be able to manage being prompt even using their own bike - but that's assuming they have a kickstand and aren't trying to fool with stands and tire warmers, aren't planning to park at their own pit where their trailer is, and can run at LEAST 3-4 sessions without refueling. For a Level 4 student it could be possible as the classroom sessions are shorter; as anthem said maybe for a L4 multi-time student they would consider it, not sure.
Having CSS staff refueling student personal bikes is not very practical; people are particular about what fuel they use, handling and fueling the bikes incurs liability, knowing which bikes need fuel and when is challenging, the amount of fuel required in a day would become a variable, etc. CSS refuels school bikes by riding each bike over to a fuel station on the transport truck and filling from a pump on the truck, so it's not like someone is just carrying around a fuel jug. They have it down to a science with the school bikes, know exactly how much fuel is needed, and it is very, very quick.
In any case, most students that attend the 2 day camp come from far enough away that renting a bike is a better option anyway - we get students from Europe, South America, Japan, Taiwan, Canada... everywhere, really... and it is VERY common in CA or Las Vegas to have students that came from the East Coast. I think the 2 day camps always sell out, and I know many of them sell out way in advance.
The 2 day camps cost more to attend because they cost more to run. There are far less students but just as many staff so the price per person has to go up to make it work. I'm sure there are probably other financial reasons for not allowing personal bikes, too - the fleet of BMWs has to be acquired, maintained, and transported to each track, so I imagine having bikes go unrented (which is what you would have to do if you let people ride their own bikes in a 2 day camp, since the number of riders is limited) would be a financial burden for the school, and BMW might not like that either, since the more people try the S1000rr, the more people buy them!
If you want to ride your own bike, and/or keep the cost down, come to two single day schools! I was a many-time student before I became a coach, and I did both - I loved 2 day camps because I could just show up and ride (a great way to go to a new track in another part of the country) but I also rode some single day schools so I could ride my own bike, and that saves a lot of money, plus you do have more time in a 1 day school to meet and chat with other riders, or just take breaks. It's good fun either way, I'm sure you'll have a blast whatever you choose to do.
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^^^ this, I have the same question.
I wanna do a 2day but use my own bike with the option of renting in case of a failure by the bike or riders. lol
For a 2 day camp you have to use a school bike; if you want to ride your own bike you'd have to sign up for 2 single day camps.
One thing that I always find comforting is that CSS does have a fantastic mechanic on site at the schools, if you have a bike problem on the day of a school he can often help you get back up and running.
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I have another question. It looks like there is a deposit required for equipment damage. Are the bikes and equipment insured? Is there an option to buy insurance? God forbid i wreck, but would hate to have to pay for a new bmw.
The required crash deposit on the bike is $1,250. There is no option to buy insurance BUT the maximum amount the school would charge you in the event of a crash is $1,250. There is also a deposit on rented gear - leathers and helmet - of $200, and that is also the max that would be charged.
. Our local AMA pro has offered to give us his advice, but I don't mind hearing from others about what's worked for them; especially those things which may be unique to a given race organization. If I do sign up to race then I'll be on my newly acquired AMA Supersport-spec 2009 Kawasaki ZX-6R; I think that puts me in C Superstock (or Superbike) Novice. My wife thinks I've lost my mind... she's probably right 
Learning From Other's Mistakes....
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
I know this has been suggested to you before - but have you had a chance to read A Twist of the Wrist II or watch the DVD? Right from the beginning the book talks about Survival Reactions, what they are, what triggers them, and how to overcome them. All of the errors you describe stem from either Survival Reactions (grabbing the brake, chopping the throttle, frozen on the steering, stiffening up the arms, target fixing, etc.) or lack of data on how to control the bike (no understanding of good throttle control) etc., all of which are throughly described in the book or DVD. You can learn how to recognize teh SRs and how to overcome them.
Thank you for you kind compliments about my riding - I can go fast and still be very much in control, and I got ALL my education from the California Superbike School - I started riding as an adult, and came to school with very little riding experience and even less confidence, now I am winning races.
You are asking how to learn from others' mistakes, and here is the answer: read Twist II, it will give you ALL of the data. (Of course coming to school would do it, too, but I know you mentioned that is not an option for you at the moment.) I know you are willing to read and think these things through, you have proven it already with your participation on this board - and Twist will present all the information in a sensible, straighforward manner, much easier to follow than asking a series of questions here, where the replies will be fragmented and not as organized.
If you are impatient to get reading right away, you can download A Twist of the Wrist (the first book) electronically now, it is available as an eBook, here is a link to it on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.co...st of the wrist