Hotfoot

Thank you, this is helpful. It seems obvious now, but it had not occurred to me to measure the actual temp the warmers are maintaining. I will check it out. I think I remember hearing that the one setting on them is 180, and relative to your Chicken Hawks, that certainly does sound high. Your suggestion of running them just 20 minutes is a good plan, I'll give that a try, and if keep doing this racing stuff I guess I'll have to get a better set of warmers. My little third place trophy from yesterday is good encouragement to spend more money!

I realized recently that I have an uncertainty on quick turns, hopefully someone help me understand this better. I noticed in some turns (for example, Turn 4 at Streets of Willow, or Turn 9 at CA Speedway) many riders will approach the turn on a bending line to get to their turn point, then turn it more when they actually reach the turn point. I am comfortable quick-turning the bike when it is stood straight up, but a little unsure about quick turning it if I am already leaned over. So, I guess my question is this: if you are already leaned over some, like when you are entering a long decreasing radius turn, is there a limitation on how fast you can then quick turn the bike? Can you quick turn as aggressively when you are leaned over, say, 1/3 of full lean, as you can when you are fully upright? I am assuming, of course, that traction is good and you are off the brakes. I think I am a little confused on this concept because I know a "mid-corner steering correction" is a bad thing, and this seems like a variation of that.

Those tires will be great, they have plenty of grip, warm up fast, and last a long time. I would not recommend switching to the Power Ones unless you are riding REALLY, REALLY fast. They are super stiff and hard to warm up if you don't use warmers, and if you are doing the school you won't want to use warmers. Plus they cost more! IMHO, the Pilot Powers are pretty similar in grip and handling characteristics to the Dunlops that CSS uses on school bikes.

Recommended pressure for the Michelin Power Race from the Michelin distributor at the track is 29 front and 22 rear, cold pressure, which is why I run at those pressures. My tires look like your Dunlop photo, not like the Michelin photo. I would definitely think, if I saw that kind of wear, that something was wrong, it looks like it is melting! The only time I have ever gotten that sort of wear was on my 636 when my rear suspension settings were WAY too hard, on a really hot day, and I overworked the tire so much that it got way too hot and I got streaks and globs like that. I was sliding, because apparently the rubber was melting faster than it was shedding off. I have been running at these same pressures for a long time - both before and after I started using warmers - but the problem of the tires getting slick is new, since I started using the warmers.

Thanks for the info Fossil... here are some answers to your questions. I am running Michelin Power Race tires (PRC front and PR3 rear), and have been running this model of tire for a while. I was getting 4 track days and never noticing any decline at all in performance, without using warmers. After 4 or more days I'd change the tires but they still looked great and I either sold the take offs or kept them for future use. Now I am running with warmers and in the middle of my SECOND track day on a set of tires I noticed I was having trouble with the back tire sliding around a lot when slowing for turns. Later in the day I started to notice less grip on the edges on the front tire. I never noticed any trouble with rear tire leaned-over drive slides, but I would not say I was pushing it very hard since it was sliding all over PRIOR to the turn! The tire wear looks fine, same as it did without warmers, but I see some blueing on the edges that I don't normally get. There is wear on the sides of the tires but very little wear in the middle. I get little balled up bits of rubber on the outer 1/4 of the rear tire, but they are not streaked or melted and they are small bits. I ride 20 minutes, then put the warmers on after the session, so they are on for 40 minutes between sessions. I run like this all day with no lunch break. The warmers have no temp display but they do turn on and off to maintain a temperature, there is an indicator light for on or off. Tire pressure is 30 in front and 22 in back and I do not typically check it through the day. Before anyone mentions it, I do realize that it isn't particularly difficult to ride without warmers and that you can get good tire life without them, but I am trying to get used to them so I can use them for racing, otherwise I get clobbered in the first lap. These tires have less grip when cold than the street model tires like the Pilot Power, so I have to go pretty slow in the first lap or two. The new PowerOnes are REALLY slick when cold and SUPER stiff, I don't think I can run those at all without warmers. So, with all that info... do you think I am over-cooking my tires? Is there any way to tell?

Help, I am confused about tire warmers. I recently started using them, at the insistence of my track buddies and tire supplier. The logic from them was that I wouldn't have to 'waste' the first few laps warming up tires, and that the tires would last a lot longer due to reduced heat cycles. I do enjoy the good grip on the first laps and the increased compliance of the warm tires, that's working out well, however it seems to me that my tires are NOT lasting as long as before - they got slippery (kinda greasy) in just two track days. This would seem to indicate that I am 'cooking' the tire. So, how do you know how long to run warmers? I asked a tire guy at the track and he said, "you have to run the warmers at least twenty minutes to get the rims and tires warm." Then I asked him how long I can leave the warmers on, and he said "not more than twenty minutes at a time." Uh... so I have to run them EXACTLY twenty minutes? "No, you have to run them at LEAST twenty minutes." Eventually I gave up on that conversation. Anyway, the track days usually run twenty minutes on track, forrty minutes off. Most people seem to leave their warmers on the whole time between sessions. My warmers have only one temp setting, no adjustment. I do not have any instructions with them, I bought them used. How is this supposed to work, and what am I doing wrong if I am overcooking the tires, or how do I know if I am?

I ain't a pro... but I do find that as I get physically tired, it is harder to maintain concentration. So my suspicion is that you are seeing riders that are either getting physically tired and losing physical strength, or getting physically tired or dehydrated and losing concentration, or losing confidence and focus due to thinking too much about errors or about getting passed. I suppose also if someone has a huge adrenaline surge due to a a wild start or a big error (a scare), that when the adrenaline wears off they could get zoned out. I know I've seen riders that ride over their head that get exhausted REALLY quickly. I do firmly believe that you have to train yourself to keep your focus and avoid reflecting on anything except what is in front of you, when you are trying to go fast. When you are practicing or training, you have to slow down to allow yourself some extra attention to spend on observing the result of changes you make. I think you can find more info in Soft Science on this.

That's a great idea. Can you make me one? I need it by next Saturday... If I didn't know you, I would say you could be suggestively sarcastic. But since I do know you, I would say you most definitely are. And I was just trying to be helpful.... Well, I have been known to be suggestive, and occasionally even sarcastic, but in this case I really would like for you to make me a bracket. It IS a good idea, I didn't mean to sound sarcastic. The rearsets are really cool and I don't really want to have to replace them. I'm going to try high heel boots, maybe that will help too.

That's a great idea. Can you make me one? I need it by next Saturday...

Can anyone recommend rearsets that adjust up and forward? All the ones I've seen seem to go up and back. On my old bike I got Satos and mounted them upside down and backwards, and that gave me a forward adjustment, but I don't know if you can still do that on the newer ZX6Rs. Currently I have those really cool Gilles VCR38GTs, which come forward a little, but not enough. I'd appreciate any ideas.

WOW, this is a terrific post. You make some great points and the photo is VERY effective in driving them home! You just made me change my plan for my next pratice day!

I think I just identified a problem with how I asked my question. I asked for advice on how to stay "calm and sensible when the green flag drops". It occurs to me that if I was calm and sensible to begin with, I wouldn't even be DOING this crazy ****!!! Seriously, though, looking at the replies above helped me to realize I just need to embrace the nervousness as part of the experience, and just enjoy the rush of excitement that comes from doing something so new and thrilling and scary.

I could use some help... I'm rather new to the race scene and have an upcoming race which is my biggest race yet. How do you control your race nerves? I am worried about being calm and cool headed enough to get a good, smooth, fast start (in a big crowd!), keeping my wide view in a tight pack of riders, and being able to fight the urge to turn in early, something that I find happens when the adrenaline kicks in. Any ideas/advice on how to stay calm and sensible, when the green flag drops?

Since you brought up the motocross idea, another idea is to try racing a smaller, slower bike - I made some really good progress on testing limits by doing some racing on a YSR50. You get to explore traction and handling limits, but at speeds that are much less intimidating, and track time is much cheaper. I am bit slow to respond to your original question about crashing, but here you go: I decided to get back on a sportbike a little over two years ago, and decided I wanted to get fast. I have attended a number of schools and PLENTY of track days, and advanced from slow-and-scared in the street group to confident in the Expert group, and I've started racing. Zero crashes. I think, along the lines of what you say above, that if you keep your head (no red mist) and pay attention to what you are doing, approaching the limits gradually, you can certainly get faster without crashing. Training helps more than anything, of course; it's a lot quicker and less painful than trial and error!

Personally, I think this choice should depend on your goals for that day. If you want to work on your riding skills, you probably want to stay in group 2 where you can slow down a little and practice - if you are struggling to keep up, it's a big distraction, and can affect your concentration and the value of your practice time. However, if your goal is to improve your laptimes, find better lines, or find out what parts of the track present opportunities for improvement, you might go to Level 3 and see where/how you are getting passed, or try to tag along with some quicker riders to find new ways to approach corners. You can also observe where the faster riders are faster than you - which corners, and is it entry speed, mid-corner, or exit drive? For me I make better improvements in a group that fits my skill level (i.e., not blowing past me!), however if I get a bit 'stuck' and I'm not really getting any gains, a swim in the deep end of the pool can provide considerable motivation.

Hi YNOT, I know you directed your question to Cobie, but I am curious about something, after reading your post above, hope you don't mind if I interject a question. When you initiate your turn-in, do you have a specific apex point you are aiming to? Or are you starting your turn, then finding you have to tighten your line a little bit more to make it to the apex you want?

So, Mr. FossilFuel, how did your TOTW II studying go? Did you schedule a tryout? When and where?

I'm pretty sure they are talking about using your right knee for a right turn to help get into position. I never actually thought about what muscles/body parts I used to get slid off the seat and into the hang off position. I think I usually lift off the seat with my legs and slide off to the side of the bike. It would probably make it a lot easier to just slide yourself over by using your inside knee so you don't get tired as quickly. There's kind of a slick way to practice this and get the idea of how to use your knee to pull yourself across the bike. Put your bike on its kickstand, so it's leaned over to the left (you should have someone standing by to keep the bike from tipping over in case you get too exuberant). Get in a hang-off position for a left turn. Now use your RIGHT knee but NOT YOUR ARMS (take your hands off the bars completely if you can) to pull yourself back into the middle of the seat. Since you are leaned to the left, and have to pull yourself up against gravity to get back into the seat, you can REALLY feel the muscles required. If you have someone supporting the bike for you, you could then try using that right knee to pull yourself over toward a right-side hang off position. This was shown to me at the school, and doing it that way made it a LOT more obvious than trying it on a bike that's straight up on wheel stands. I used to always lift up, scoot over, then sit back down, but as I got faster that action became more and more abrupt (almost a bounce), upsetting the bike and loosening my grip on it enough that a rough spot in the track would launch me up out of the seat a bit. When I started using my knee to pull myself across, it took less time, was more secure, and didn't upset the bike as much; it definitely worked better.

What? No hi-jacking here, your posts are informative and helpful, no worries at all. I'm glad to see you active here on the forum, the more the merrier, and thanks for helping with photos! Cool looking bike, too, by the way!

Heck yeah, Fossil, I think it would be fun to go knee to knee, elbow to elbow with you... oh wait, maybe that's not exactly what you said... well, anyway, racing would be fun, too! So now I'm Relentless, huh? Maybe I'll put that on the back of my leathers. Where you can see it. For a while, anyway...

Seize the day, darlin'! If you are capable, and willing, and can afford it, by God you oughtta do it! That's my philosophy, anyway. But, I am very lucky that my husband loves this stuff, too - I rarely get any grief about going to track days, he's right there with me. But it's definintely expensive, good grief. You could try getting your wife into horseback riding, preferably dressage. It is equally expensive, time consuming, and absorbing. So you will have no money, but you'll both be very busy living life to its fullest. What kind of bike are you getting? And when is your tryout? And where? And I bet we can coordinate a WERA race one of these days (but CodeRace would be way more fun).

We have the same brand of front stand but mine is the kind that hooks under the bottom of the front forks, not under the triple tree. The pins fit OK and I think there are different sizes available, but on this stand they are nylon, not metal. Thanks for posting the photos of your stands, that was pretty cool. Someday I'll figure out how to post pictures here. Cobie was talking about a Pit Bull restraint system that doesn't require tie-downs at all, so you don't have to compress the suspension. It's new, I think, and you can see it on the Pit Bull website. I read somewhere about someone that used them and the bikes were secure even when their trailer popped off the hitch (gulp!) which reorganized almost everything ELSE in the trailer. Seems like a cool idea, the main reason I didn't look into those more is that I wanted to be able to remove the chocks easily and leave a flat floor, and if I remember correctly there is some hardware sticking up with the Pit Bull system.

Gee, I don't know if THOSE pictures would make it through your Internet filtering system... Oh, you mean the BIKE tie-downs! Right, the plastic wheel chocks. They are lightweight, reasonably priced and a clever design. One small criticism, they are a little wide for the sportbike front tire so they allow a little bit of turn to the front wheel, I'd like them better if they fit tighter. But, I LOVE the way the quick releases work, it's very easy to remove the chocks and nothing sticks up out of the floor. The manufacturer is Black&Gray, here is a link: http://www.blackandgray.com/wchockMain.php

Well, did you see they added a 2 day camp at Laguna Seca over Thanksgiving? If I read it right, it's school on Wednesday, day off for Thanksgiving on Thursday, then school again on Friday. Sounds like fun, I think you should rent a house and host a big Thanksgiving dinner for everyone on Thursday!!! Oh, by the way, FossilFuel, I am booked for CodeRace Oct 26-27th, are you up for it?