Hotfoot

I asked Will this question: What MECHANICALLY makes the radius change when you increase the speed? It is not really a discussion of the CSS type roll-on for stabilizing the bike (although it may have started that way), it is the more theoretical discussion of what happens if you keep your lean angle, and increase your speed a lot, the radius of the circle will change, but what MAKES it do that, just the tire sliding more? And here is his response: It is too simple for most to realize it is the answer, Trail. What trail does is balance the bike against the pull of gravity. The rider sets the lean angle by displacing the bars against the force of trail and making the bike lean. Once released trail points the front wheel to balance the bike against gravity. Trail doesn't care about the speed of the bike, it just balances it at whatever angle it is at ( lean angle). If you increase speed without changing lean angle trail will simply "steer" the bike into a new bigger radius as the force to balance the bike is already there, or vise versa into a smaller one as speed drops while maintaining the lean angle as set by the rider.

OK, here's the update on the custom earplugs - I used them this weekend on the track. They were great, the sound filtration was terrific. The guy we used (www.earplugs4u.com in CA) offers the earplugs with a filter, to allow some sounds to come through, or without, which gives a higher dB block but is too quiet for some people. I used the ones with the filter, and they were perfect - great wind and engine noise blocking, but I didn't feel totally disconnected, and could still hear someone talk to me in the pit area if they spoke loudly. I found them easier to put in correctly than the foam ones, and very comfortable, and they never shifted out of position like the foam ones sometimes do, especially when taking my helmet on and off. I highly recommend them. One small point, they are not really soft so you need to try on your helmet after getting them fitted to make sure they are slimmed down enough that there is no pressure on your ear between the helmet and earplug. I need to have one of mine trimmed down slightly - it became a little uncomfortable by the end of the second day. But, overall, they were great, I like them a lot better than the foam ones. After reading some of the other posts on this thread, I want to clarify something - we had earplugs made for blocking wind noise while riding on the track. None of us were trying to make something to use for listening to music or cellphone while riding, or for use while street riding. I DID have custom earpiece made for my cellphone headset, to make it fit better, but that was not for motorcycle use, it's just another service he offers and we decided to try it, and it does make the headset fit more comfortably and more securely.

Could try http://www.earplugs4u.com/ . They're in Diamond Bar. I have no experience with them, but have heard good reviews. Personally, I tried the Jawbone 2, but could not get a comfortable fit. I replaced it with the Motorola H710 and couldn't be happier. The H710 over the ear is only $35 and conveniently turns on when you flip it open. Apollo, THANK YOU for this excellent recommendation, I checked out the link above, called the guy on Friday, got an appt for Saturday. Fitting was easy, pricing was reasonable, and Mark was a super nice guy and terrific to work with. The whole process only took about 30 minutes, I got earplugs and an earpiece for my phone. I'll try the earplugs out on the bike next weekend and let you know how they work. So thanks again, this was very helpful!! After this, Cobie, I'm all for adding that equipment section on the forum, I can sure see how it would be useful!

I would recommend a marksmanship store or shooting range. Great idea, thank you! Do you think I could go to one without getting pulled into another expensive hobby??

Hotfoot tried nudging a complete answer out of Keith, but he's being tight-lipped :-) Apparently Keith isn't so much "being tight-lipped" as he is "being out of town." Yes, I went racing, it was great, pretty happy with a fourth place finish, as there were some much faster bikes mixed in the class. And yes, Cobie, you can take the blame for getting me hooked on this expensive sport. CodeRACE was a great preparation, I am SO glad I did that first. And BTW, where is YOUR answer to this burning question about circles? I might have gotten a podium finish if I had known the answer BEFORE the race. I was paying attention to this when I was riding, I had a good long turn with a constant radius to try it, and it sure did FEEL to me like the front tire (maybe the back too, not sure) was losing ground and that was the thing that was making the radius bigger.

I didn't want to use earplugs and fought it for a while - they made me feel claustrophobic and disconnected, like being on cold medicine. Then I bought a new helmet, same brand (Shoei) but better ventilated than my old one. I was astounded at the difference in wind noise, now I HAVE to wear earplugs or the wind noise above about 100mph is actually painful and a big distraction. So, the helmet itself makes a big difference. Recently someone told me that those headsock things you can wear under your helmet reduce wind noise, too, but I haven't tried it. It took me about three track days to get used to the feeling of wearing the earplugs. I wear them on all superbike trackdays and when driving go-karts (they are very high speed also) but not on my dirt bike or on the street. I wear cheap throwaways, would like something better - where do you get the custom/reuseable type? Or is there a type of disposables that you like?

Good idea! Do you think my Evel Knievel stunt cycle will work???

Number one for sure, number four is unlikely. Keith Jaybird asked a follow up question - what exactly is the mechanism the CAUSES the radius of the circle to increase, if the rider does not add any steering input? Intuitively I thought that if you rolled on the throttle (possibly harder than Jaybird was thinking in his quote above) the increased forces would make the bike want to stand up and go wider, but I am told that this is not true, that with no rider input the bike's lean angle will not change when the throttle is rolled on. So, is that correct? And if so, what IS it that makes the bike travel a larger circle, slippage of the tires? Does this depend on bike setup?

How does the radius increase on a bike leaned to the inside of a turn when no bar input has been applied (assuming the tires are not sliding)? Here is a quote from Wikipedia that's interesting: Because real tires have a finite contact patch with the road surface that can generate a scrub torque, and when in a turn, can experience some side slipping as they roll, they can generate torques about an axis normal to the plane of the contact patch. One such torque is generated by asymmetries in the side-slip along the length of the contact patch. The resultant force of this side-slip occurs behind the geometric center of the contact patch, a distance described as the pneumatic trail, and so creates a torque on the tire. Since the direction of the side-slip is towards the outside of the turn, the force on the tire is towards the center of the turn. Therefore, this torque tends to turn the front wheel in the direction of the side-slip, away from the direction of the turn, and therefore tends to increase the radius of the turn.

OK, I retract my prior statement, as a very knowledgeable friend tells me that rolling on the throttle (even rolling it on a LOT) does NOT, in fact, make the bike stand up, that if the bike is standing up under acceleration it's because the rider is steering it up. So now this question is bugging me, too...

How does the radius increase on a bike leaned to the inside of a turn when no bar input has been applied (assuming the tires are not sliding)? It just DOES, dammit. OK, I'll take a stab at this, but I'm fearful it will start one of those scary physics discussions. And before I even start, let me make the point that it's probably not realistic to assume the tires are not sliding - they pretty much always are, to some degree, when you are turning, right...? I THINK that as you roll on the throttle, you are increasing the force that is making the bike want to go straight (linear momentum?) AND stand up (less lean angle), so unless you actively prevent it from happening, the bike will stand up as you roll on and thus your circle will get bigger. If you roll on AND push on the bar to try to keep your lean angle constant, you will be adding more load on the tires and could lose traction.

Comfort Inn and Holiday Inn Express in Lancaster are both nice, similar to a Marriott Courtyard. They are 20-30 minutes from the track, and they have continental breakfast available very early. It's worth the extra 10 minutes drive, trust me - the Devonshire is... uh... not as nice as Stu makes it sound.

I am seeing a lot of positive reviews here on the quick turn throttle idea - it sounds great to me, too, I don't like how far I have to turn my throttle to get it wide open. However, just to share my experience with it, I put one on my bike, and had a tough time with it. It broke repeatedly, and if I hadn't had access to a really terrific mechanic right at trackside I would have been sidelined on at least two track days. I finally took it off and went back to stock. You can PM me if you want to know WHICH throttle it was, but the manufacturer's name starts with Y. Hopefully mine was an isolated case, but just thought I should share the info - on mine the set screws backed out easily, were very tiny and hard to use, and the metal screw connection in the cable actually snapped in half. If any of you have another throttle that has worked well for you or you have been very happy with, post the info, I'm interested. I probably won't tackle the homemade PVC solution that I see on some other sites, although if you did it and it works great, I'd be interested to hear that, too.

There is a school (won't name names) that has it's students tracing circles in a parking lot as a foundation to cornering on a racetrack. I don't know if this is all they teach but I had an extensive discussion with it's founder and noted author (hint, hint). Are you saying that this has no merit? I agree totally with what Stuman says in his post above. To me, maintaining a constant radius circle is a LOT different from going around a corner; it intuitively makes sense that you cannot increase throttle indefinitely on a fixed circle without eventually reaching the limit of tires and/or available lean angle (unless, of course, you are in one of those cool circle cages where you are making loops without having to lean the bike...). On a racetrack there is an exit to the corner, so you can gauge your roll-on rate to match the corner such that you are WFO as soon as possible to get best exit speed, which is, presumably, the goal. My confusion in your question is I don't quite get what you are trying to find out, or how you wish to apply the information, which makes it a bit harder to answer the question in any helpful way. Is there one particular aspect of this that you are trying to apply on the track? Regarding using a circle as an exercise, I think it's a great thing to do to really get comfortable with the concepts we are discussing. After all, all you need is a smooth parking lot and you can go out, start on a circle, then roll on a bit, then roll off a bit, and see exactly how the bike reacts - circle gets bigger, circle gets smaller. It's also a good way to get comfortable with being leaned over and a good way to practice body position; you can do it at CSS on the lean bike, too, of course. So, I think it is a very useful learning tool, since being able to isolate the concepts and test them directly, without other distractions, is extremely helpful.

OK, let's have a look at this, humor me for moment. Let's imagine a situation with truly no references. Flat piece of asphalt, no markings, skid or oil marks, 50 miles square. One is dropped in the center, say Scottie beamed you there. Would that be a little disorienting? How does one even know he is on a road if there isn't some kind of reference? C He's on asphalt. Kidding. I can still remember my first trackday, and think about it often when I watch the beginners tooling around the track. Granted, if a person rides around the track (I couldn't have told you what an RP was when I first started, and didn't look for points but just rode around the track) and one is shown RP's, the one who has RP's will be faster after just a session. An RP would have to be defined to continue any discussion to clarify whether it's needed or not. I'm starting to read that someone even considers a corner an RP. In big sweeping corners I just get my head into it, and have nothing to focus on. I don't have an RP to speak of. I can't remember where it's at, but somewhere in TOTW 2, I've read that abandoning RP's is done. I can't remember where it's at, so I can't clarify it's meaning, but I couldn't read anything about finding new RP's, just that ditching them is acceptable. A motorcycle can turn without an RP, and it can get around a track without them. I don't even know if I could ride a new track without searching for RP's anymore, but I do know that I ride new roads without knowing RP's, and am able to make it to the end. I think there are riders who look for a complete picture as the reference instead of specific individual points; more along the lines of "when I see this picture, I make my turn". Example on a curving freeway ramp with guardrails, you may remember from experience that at a certain place, you are able to see far enough ahead to know whether there are stopped cars, and you know at that point you can roll on the gas. That may seem a lot different from using a little hole in the pavement, but it still works as a reference to define WHERE you are relative to the rest of the world. Another example, you may know you are in the "middle" of your lane. Without the painted lines as a reference, how would you know you were in the middle? The paint becomes a reference. In a broad sense, you can use anything that does the job of telling you where you are, as long as you can see it and it isn't moving around (like another rider). And of course it has to have some meaning to you - like "Oh, there's First National Bank, that means I'm halfway home from work". That's a lot different from turning on a X mark on the track, but to me, it still fits the definition of a reference point. Personally, I find that as I get to know a track better and better, the specific small reference points become less necessary to me because I now am familiar with a whole picture of the turn and could still make my turn point even if the pavement flaw or skid mark I used to use went away. I think maybe that is what's meant by "abandoning RPs". Definitely when I am learning a track OR trying to make changes in my riding, very specific reference points are a great confidence tool because I know FOR SURE that I am EXACTLY where I should be, not runnning wide, etc., ESPECIALLY if some of the turns are similar looking.

OK, so maybe it IS about being at the front of the race. And YES, I AM still whining about not having enough horsepower, does that ever stop? I saw that other thread about 7lb equalling approx 1 horespower. If race gas gives you, say, 3 extra horsepower, that beats the heck out of losing 21 pounds, I'm changing my New Year's resolution! And hey, how come no one answered my question about leaded fuel, is it a dumb question? Or is it just that the answers are environmentally irresponsible?

Stu, This is really helpful, thanks. One point that still confuses me - isn't ultimate 4.3 a leaded race fuel, and is that OK to run in my stock bike? VP Fuel website says 4.2 is a drop in for pump gas (and isn't that all unleaded now?), but I thought running leaded fuel would damage the catalytic converter. Also, with the current available race gas, can it remain in the bike for a week or two or does it gum things up or cause any other problems if it sits in there? Incidentally, in my case it isn't about needing the extra HP to be at the front of the race - it's about getting that little extra advantage over my riding buddies, on occasions where it's REALLY necessary. Thanks for the info!

When I was at the 2 day camp recently Keith said no, you can't flick it in to fast. The mistake he said people make is, they don't stop counter steering soon enough and literally drive themselves into the ground. So it is a steering error not a matter of throwing the bike into the corner to fast. I was told the same thing at school, but with the caveat "assuming good traction and warm tires." So of course you don't want to try super-aggressive quick turns in the rain or on your first lap out! Presumably a handful of front brake would limit your quick turn, too. One thing that was a huge "AHA" moment for me about quick turn was when my coach asked me if I was consciously stopping the push on the bars when I reached my desired lean angle. Once I started paying attention to that, my turns got much cleaner and I was able to quick turn with more confidence.

Oh, WONDERFUL, this fixed it for me, THANK YOU, it is SO much faster and easier to navigate this way. Incidentally, this is somethig that just changed on me one day, I never changed any options to make it happen, not sure why it occurred. Thanks for getting it straightened out, I really appreciate it.

Whoa, THAT LOOKS LIKE FUN! Is it street legal? If you haven't registered it yet, you might find that to be a challenge - I have a YSR50 that's an import and they wanted some sort of manufacturer stamp on it that says it's rated for "highway use". My frame came from Japan, and didn't say that, so it took some work to get it registered, even though it met all other requirements. I brought a stack of supporting documentation (from 1988, the year of manufacture) and finally got it through. Regarding insurance, as long as you have a VIN number, I bet you could just pick a bike that is similar in engine displacement size that is street legal and tell them it is "similar" to that. They might just be looking for a classification. I would not call it a superbike (usually 600cc and the rate would be too high, they are high risk) nor would I call it a pocket bike or minibike since those are generally not street legal. Maybe you could classify it as something similar to a 200cc dual sport like the Suzuki DR200, or better yet call it a scooter. If you JUST need insurance, but aren't trying to get it street legal, consider registering it for "off-road" use - it's cheaper and that registration might help you get the insurance. Good luck, and let me know where you got the thing, it looks like a blast. BTW, if you can't get it registered for the street, look into local go-kart tracks, sometimes they allow mini or pocket bikes to run and it's a great way to play with the bike.

2 - I couldn't find a profile option to change it, and also if I use the same login, wouldn't the profile follow the login name, not the PC? On one PC I see within a topic a long list of posts that are all open and readable, but on the other I see only the first post then an outline of titles and have to click each one to open it to read it. This happens on both lo and hi fi version, BTW.

Possibly this topic has already been covered in this forum, but I didn't find it so here goes: What's the deal on race gas? Is it worth anything to use it? I have asked people around the track and gotten such a wide variety of answers that I'm more confused than ever. My bike is stock, and I've been running pump gas unleaded 91 octane. I can buy 100 or even 110 octane unleaded pump gas, but I'm in California so who knows what is added to it. At the track there's a fuel guy that sells mysterious and expensive cans of stuff labeled with numbers and letters. One day he told me I could run leaded race gas and get 2-3 more hp (sorely needed on my bike) but I think he must have thought I had a straight race bike with no emmission control stuff on it; doesn't it do bad things to your catalytic converter to run leaded gas? Someone else told me that since my Power Commander is mapped for 91 octane, I would get no benefit from higher octane fuel unless I remapped it. Others have suggested that it takes even more modification than that to get the benefit. And I've also heard that race gas simply isn't worth the expense. But, judging by the smell coming from a lot of bikes on the track, a lot of people ARE using it, presumably they have a reason... Can anybody clear this up for me?

I still haven't got this figured out, still looking for the answer. Per Stuman I checked my browser on both PCs - I am using Internet Explorer 7 on both of them, so don't think that's the problem, and it appears to me that all settings are the same on both computers. I don't notice any differences on any other sites. It is SO much nicer to be able to just scroll down and read the posts one after the other and not have to click back and forth to open each one. Since Jaybird sees it as multithreaded on his PC, now I'm wondering how many others see it that way and don't know it can be viewed differently. Kevin, any ideas? Who else can I ask?

Let's see, the tire guy says I need race tires and tire warmers. The suspension guy says I need an Ohlins suspension. The fuel guy says I need race gas, my mechanic says I need more horsepower, my riding buddies say I need more track time, and I think I need more school days. So, it looks like to me what it takes is... MONEY!!

I have a forum question. This is posted in the wrong area, but I posted it in the "new user" area weeks ago and no one answered, so I'm putting it HERE where all the action is! I have 2 PCs, and on one of them the forum displays as a sequential list of messages, so once I enter a topic I can just scroll down and read the posts one after the other. On the other PC, when I open a topic, I can only see the original post, then all replies appear in an outline format below, arranged in what I guess you'd call a multi-threaded format, arranged in chains of replies. On that PC, I have to click on the post I want to read to open it, then scroll down and click on the next one to open that, etc. I find that format much slower and harder to use; how can I change that? I have looked through lots of settings but just couldn't find it. Anybody know?