racer

Use two fingers on the front brake and let the fingers slide across the lever while maintaining even pressure as you blip.

I just listened to Keith's new interviews on the home page. Good stuff. Especially the parts where he talks about foundational skills and constantly experimenting with new training techniques on a constant flow of new students.

Hey Thor, I can sure get behind your comments regarding dogma vs thinking. Can you be more specific about where the CSS program has fallen into dogmatic training techniques or which fundamental skills that are mere subsets or how those subsets aren't foundational to what works everyday for every rider? (In my opinion, fundamentals are foundational, subset or not.) I'm sure the school would listen to and consider any specific suggestions or ideas you may have. In fact, I recall someone confronting Keith at a Road Atlanta school after GNF some time back about how all the top riders then were usng the rear brake to back into corners "dirttrack" style and a series of Keith Code articles about using the rear brake appearing in RRW just a few weeks later. So, by example, I find the school quite responsive to specific observations and suggestions. I think folks need to keep in mind that racing skills are not the same as riding skills. And riding skills are fundamental and foundational to racing skills. Cheers, Racer

Hey tfc600, As Cobie said, there are situations where trailbraking can be effective. Keith mentioned decreasing radius corners. However, some general things to keep in mind: Any braking forces being applied will reduce available traction. And, the more compressed the forks are, the less they will be able to perform their intended function of keeping the front tire in contact with the road. In any case, I agree. It takes a very fine touch to effectively use trail braking. A fine touch that most people are not born with and will take many miles of practice to develop. In my opinion, trying to learn and incorporate that fine touch while still learning a basic sense of how fast one can corner or steer without being on the brakes would be confusing and perhaps counter-productive, if not dangerous, for a rider still learning the basics. Cheers, Racer

No. The front wheel is turned slightly into the turn.

OR... If a bike is equipped with a slipper clutch, the slipper clutch would be partially engaged under heavy braking with the rear wheel on the ground...hence, the downshifting will be easier because the clutch is already "slipping" and reducing engine braking forces on the transmission. Only took me about ten days to think of that. Not bad considering I never rode with a slipper clutch...doh.

I want to be as far away as possible from the redline after a downshift. Redline is where I up shift. On the racetrack, I want my downshift to place me at the beginning of the powerband for that gear... at the perfect place to start accelerating. For instance, on my 400 the powerband begins around 8000 rpm. So I would down shift below that to bring me back up to 8000 rpm. (Rev limit is 15,500 rpm.) If I am downshifting for a slow corner after a fast straightaway, I wait until I am almost finished with my braking and the rev's are down around 3000 rpm or less. After say four or five downshifts, I am in the powerband again and ready to accelerate out of the corner in the appropriate gear. Same thing for normal street riding. I don't downshift until the rpm's drop below usable power. On my 400 that would be around 3000 rpm. The whole point of downshifting is to choose the appropriate gear for my roadspeed that will give me more control of the bike by being able to accelerate. What else would I do with the motor?

ALso, Re-reading your first post... I was a little confused about where you are with the brakes. How much attention are you spending on braking/downshifting? Are you getting off the brakes before your turn point?

Hey doog, A crash can sometimes re-instill a strong survival reaction, no doubt! Especially if the first time bites you hard, eh? The experience can create a whole new set of barriers that weren't there before. Keith has a really good article on overcoming barriers here on the site. Good luck, Racer PS I like to do track walks. They really help to see things I don't notice at speed.

Hi doog, You mentioned attending the school, have you read the books? I'm thinking there is a chapter called "Seeing the Big Picture" in TTOW or a part of a chpater with that title that might be helpful. When I attended the school there was an exercise that correlated with that chapter that involved moving one's attention around without moving the eyes. The gist is remaining aware of the whole scene and your place in it without getting stuck on any one point. Also, it really helps to have a good set of RP's (reference points) to go with the SP (sub-products) like turn points and apexes and be really clear about them and the relationship between them. And between them and you. And what exactly you plan to do where. So, as I approach the turn my eyes are relaxed and not focused specifically at anything. Not near, not far. Not at any particular point, just in the middle somewhere. I can move my attention around if I need to, but, under normal circumstances, it's more like I'm "noticing" things like RP's as they come into view. Like, "Ok here comes the brake marker, here comes the big rock where I let off the brake or here comes the square patch before the little patch where I turn in." But I don't actually look at any of them. I don't really focus on these things or look right at them. It's more like I just "notice" them without getting stuck on it. It sounds like you might not have enough reference points (RP's) before or after the the turn point or may be on the verge of what is called "target fixating" a little bit with the turn point. A school coach probably could say better from just a verbal written description, but, to my ear, the feeling of "being rushed" indicates a lack of awareness of where you are IN RELATION to where you are going. Like you have lost track of where you are and/or need more reference points (RP's) for where you are going or are getting a little stuck looking RIGHT AT the turn point and not looking into the turn soon enough. For me, I'm turning my head and looking into the corner just before hitting the turn point to be seeing the apex or RP's to aim for a sub-product or apex of the corner. They books are an invaluable resource to work from and read over and over and over again. I you don't have them, get them! Oh, size of a turn point? On a 125 about 1-3 inches wide. On a 600 maybe 6-12 inches at most. Width of a tire. But you DO NOT want to be staring at a 3 inch patch of pavement... I hope this all made sense. Cheers, Racer

Hi Kalkat, I know I'm not Keith (I'm much younger and better looking) but this subject has been discussed at great length here. There is a search function you can use to find the thread(s) or you can scan down the thread titles, too. In any case, in a nutshell, weight (bias) transfers to the rear under acceleration. However, due to the triangular relationship, that is to say the angle of the swingarm to the chainpull and the position of the swingarm pivot above the chain, the chain pull crosses the swingarm and pulls DOWN on the rear of the swingarm in an arc as the arm rotates around the pivot in the frame. Try this: Draw two circles to represent the front and rear sprockets. Draw a line acros the top of the two circles to represent the top (pull) of the drive chain. Now draw a big dot above that line to represent the swingarm pivot and a line between that big dot and the rear sproket to represent the swingarm. Imagine the chain pulling forward under acceleration. What happens? Racer

Capital idea!! Outstanding!

Then there was the 125GP at the World Superbike Round at Laguna in 1998... When I chose to wait until the exit onto the front straight to pass the last guy on my run from dead last 50th on the grid to 20th at the white flag and the dude threw it away on the racing line coming onto the front straight right in front of me and I had to stand it up and jam the brakes not to hit him. And the rest of the eight bike train I had spent the last four laps getting around passed me back to take the white flag. So...sometimes it is better to get out front and stay there!! Why was I 50th on the grid? Oh, got bumped off by two other guys in qualifying who decided to out brake me going into that same corner like it was the last lap of the race. Sometimes it really is a full moon! I never did get to see that broadcast if anyone out there has a tape.

So Alan, If you do end up bumping down next year like you mentioned, I might recommend going with the 400 that you can wheel out, fill with fuel and ride all day before rolling back on the trailer without a second thought to anything other than riding. However, you do see how competitive the 125's are down there... Cheers

Having said all of that... One of the funnest races of my life was the 125GP at the Formula USA round at Grattan in 1995. The 2-3 fastest guys slipped away and left about five of us battling over 4th-8th places. It was epic and the best battle on the track, if not the entire weekend. Cut and thrust, lap after lap, the pack was 3 and 4 wide down the front straight and, being a demon on the brakes, I ended up winning almost every lap. However, I made a terrible error going deep on the brakes coming onto the front straight for the white flag and followed the pack into turn one for the last lap just as we came upon lapped traffic. After leading the pack for the entire race I was truly pissed! What didn't make the tape were the half-dozen wicked, bump and grind, three-wide mid-corner passes on the back half of the course as I fought my way back to take 5th place at the checkers. The rub is that the race meet was broadcast on ESPN. And somewhere in my closet is a video tape with Kurt Hall announcing my name to the world lap after lap, "On the brakes again into turn one ...". So...I didn't win the race...but...I wouldn't have had it any other way. The moral of the story is: Do as I say, not as I do. But if you do do as I did, make sure the race is being broadcast worldwide!

Previous post has been edited.

Exactly. The charging rider is turning a slower laptime. To respond directly: In the race, if the other rider is of equal skill and speed, follow them around until the end and repass. If they are faster than you, it is only a matter of time until they get by and get away anyway. To ride defensively not only slows you down, it robs you of the opportunity to follow the faster rider and learn something. More importantly it slows both of you down and gives the slower riders behind a chance to catch up. It is difficult sometimes in a short sprint race to keep a long view and not get drawn iinto a braking duel but at the end of the day, your better off to let them go in hot while you back off and carry more corner speed and get a better drive. If indeed you are evenly matched, the stay calm, stay smooth, save your energy and don't get worn out or mentally fatigues from the intensity and distraction of an intense braking duel. Make them look over their shoulder and worry and wonder. Save it for the last lap and pop your competitor where they can't get you back before the flag.

To amend or clarify my previous posts... There is a "sweet spot" in between being "on the gas" and "off the gas" where there is no pushing or pulling on the drivetrain either way. It is in this "sweet spot" when there is little or no pressure on the teeth of the transmission gears that they are essentially free to shift or slide over to engage the next gear. Same as when the motor is off and the bike is on the stand. Or when the clutch is engaged. Simple enough, right? Now, when a rider is off the gas, closed throttle, there is only enough fuel to turn the motor at idle speed. So the motor is being pushed or forced around more by the road than fuel and loads the transmission gears in the opposite direction from being on the gas. This is sometimes called "ENGINE BRAKING". The lower the engine's RPM's while decelerating in gear, the less loading there will be on the transmisssion and the easier it will be to perform the clutchless downshift. You will still need to give a blip to the throttle to match revs for the next gear selection and you need to time that just as you come out of one gear and during the transition to the next. It may help to apply a little pressure to the shift lever first and then blip the throttle. When done right it is one continuous and smooth action. It takes some practice to get the feel and master. It may also cause broken transmission gear teeth. Needless to say that will not make for a happy transmission. So, frankly, proceed at your own risk. Personally I don't consider this anything more than a novelty for riding on the street and of limited value on the track. I do not recommend trying it until you are an expert at downshifting like a master with the clutch. Chances are on the track you will end up doing it by accident in a wide-eyed moment of "whoa whoa" anyway. No need to rush it. The truth is I didn't start downshifting without the clutch on motorcycles until I switched to two stroke GP bikes and I've never ridden or raced with a slipper clutch, so all of this may be somewhat less critical for those with slipper clutches, however, understanding the why of things helps me feel more comfortable and in control. That's my opinion and it does not necessarily represent the opinion of the CSS and/or its staff. And they certainly have a proper program for learning it on specialized equipment at the school. P.S. My gut agrees with Cobie that being on the brakes will help in and of itself but I'm not certain I know entirey why, yet. And it is snowing too hard to go experiment. I'm thinking perhaps it is simply a matter of helping to smooth out the the back-lash of gear engagement? Higher rev's, more engine braking again. Being on the brakes might help smooth out the pulses to not upset the suspension? Generally speaking, the only time I intentionally used clutchless downshifting on a four stroke was when I wanted to catch a single gear and would be continuing upward on the throttle after the blip to immediately accelerate ...like because I got into a corner too hot and didn't have time to catch the last down shift before having to turn in, so, I'd grab the last one in a hurry at the apex sans clutch as I started to accelerate out of the corner. As opposed to banging four clutchless downshifts at the end of a straightaway. On the two stroke the back lash was minimal, just like the engine braking. Anyway, I think Cobie read an early draft of this post. Perhaps he will enlighten me? Questions? Comments? Thoughts? Happy shifting! Racer

Cool man. I started to use the hill as a load (or lack of load if going downhill) as an analogy but for some reason I thot it might be confusing. That's great that you came up with it! I wondered however if you might come up with a two stroke just under the powerband picking up rpm's due to smaller wheel circumference in the corner to get onto the pipe and thereby gain more power and speed mid-turn... Yeah, I think the bigger wheel/smaller sproket thing comes into more play when gearing for redline or calculating speed in gears for alternate tranny sets on a roadracer. Or maintaining drive ratio when changing to a different tire size. Or getting the power down better on a dragster. So, now we are left with the question of the bike eventually settling into a "steady state"...or not? I'm leaning toward "yes" as the norm. However... Technically I think it is still somewhat case sensitive. In the given terms and conditions of the original thought experiment, if you try to climb a steep hill starting off at 80 kph/50 mph in sixth gear you could eventually stall if the hill was steep enough. The throttle and power delivery aren't much off idle in that scenario. But open it up to 100 kph or more and I think you'd have to climb a ski slope to stall. Although cornering loads in a given corner/radius are in fact dictated by speed. The faster you go the steeper the mountain gets... Damn. OK I"m done. G'night. PS I always thought the trick was to grow old without growing up......

Respectfully, if you discount cornering forces you are not talking about the reality of cornering anymore. If you hold a constant or steady throttle position when you lean into a corner, actual or "true" road speed will decrease due to cornering forces. The simple fact that you are inputing the same amount of power and adding more resistance will dictate a decrease in speed. Same fuel. Same power. More friction/resistance/non-conservative/dissipative force. Less speed. A steady throttle at lean will equal acceleration as you stand it up due to less resistance. But no faster than you were before you leaned over with that same throttle. Yes a larger circumference wheel will cover more distance for a given RPM, however, the RPM is not a given here, the throttle is. As you lean the bike over, wheel speed and RPM may relatively increase due to a smaller circumference wheel, but the POWER remains the same. Conversely, given that same constant throttle/power, when you stand it up, any RPM's gained due to that decrease in circumference will be lost again. The power input does not change. Gotta run. Cheers.

No no no. Don't mind at all. How funny. What a difference a year makes. This is the thread I was referring to the other day when I mentioned how far we'd come since the last time Woody, TZ and I were on about this subjeect a year ago. About 600 million miles or so around the sun, haha. Anyway, if you tip into a corner at constant throttle you slow down due to the cornering forces I think. I don't think the smaller tire circumference has any direct effect on speed. Although the wheel will turn more RPM for a given speed at lean than in a straight line making the speedo read inaccurately higher than true speed. Maybe higher than what was indicated prior to tipping in...? Whether or not the bike eventually reaches a steady state ... hmmm. In terms of the original problem, assuming steady state in top gear (overdrive) prior to tipping in... My initial gut reaction is to say it will depend on the radius of the corner and the final drive ratio of the bike. Fifty mph is a good clip but sixth gear overdrive...hmmm. That's barely fast enough to maintain sixth gear in the first place. There are so many other variables I don't know if it is possible to make a standard determination. Assuming a shallow bend on the highway...OK sure. Rolling into a tight bend at fifty in sixth gear with steady throttle....? I don't know. Maybe in a lower gear. Something less than 1:1 for instance would be one thing. Anyway, I'll have to read through this thread over the weekend. There was some funnny stuff about juggling sledge hammers and such as I recall...

OK, If the idea is that the rider is forced to traverse the water at lean (can't stand it up, can't steer around it) then "off the brake" will allow the most traction IMO. Also, IMO, this concept fits any standard corner (wet or dry) as the water simply represents decreased traction ...as does leaning over to corner or leaning further in a corner. More lean, less traction, less brake. That said, I think that braking or trailing the brake (front or rear) until one reaches the water (or sand, or whatever sudden impediment or limit to traction) will help scrub speed and increase traction at the point of encounter with the sudden impediment. This assumes one is not already at MAX lean and speed...the absolute limit of traction... to begin with. Which is a pretty bad idea on a road you've never seen. (Or any public road IMHO.) I think this model can also be well applied to a gradually changing condition of traction due to decreasing camber or radius or whatever in that trailing the brake and gradually releasing the brake proportionally to the decreasing traction (due to increasing lean) will also afford the most traction/speed at any given point on the timeline...if you know what I mean...lol. As for the rear brake deal... Although being on the rear brake might be preferrable to being on the front brake while crossing the water, ANY braking will increase the weight bias forward thereby decreasing traction at the front wheel when crossing the water IMO. That sounds like a bad deal to me. TTFN, R

Hey Cobie, I don't mean to pick nits, but... Is this a right turn or a left turn? Are we in the US or the UK? (Left or right side of road standard?) Is the bus in the opposite lane from me... or from where it is supposed to be? Thanks, Racer

Oh, and being on the brake will also effectively remove lash or stress from the drivetrain . Good point Cobie. I hadn't even thought about that.

I was in a big hurry yesterday as usual and...I guess I am again today..LOL...sorry. I think the rider who understands how the mechanics actually work has a distinct advantage over simply trying to follow instructions but I will do the best I can in the short time I have. For the clutchless downshifting you'll still need to reduce or eliminate the lash or backlash in the drivetrain. If you are slowing or braking for a corner there will be backlash or negative lash on the tranny. (Best words I can think of now) Like backing off the gas removes accel lash while upshifting under aceleration, if you are decelerating you will need to add a bit of throttle to remove the lash in car/truck (or non-sequential tranny) mode where one must come out of gear and then match revs and enter new gear peferrably on the upswing of matching revs blip. However... For a bike. if you are careful, you can begin to apply some pressure to the shift lever before you blip the throttle and the whole thing gets combined into one move. It takes very precise timing and attention so as not to come full on the gas before the gear shift. You have time the shift at that instant between being off the gas and on the gas. I can't say more now. Gotta go. EDIT: OK, don't pre-load the shift leaver (sic).