racer

tfc600, If a street rider does choose to use traction control, it will amount to a trade-off between skill and safety. Obviously, the concept of throttle control would change for that rider/student. Many racers rely on being able to spin the rear tire to control their motorcycle. I think if racers were polled, we would find many who don't want it just for that reason. Regardless of the unfair cost of being "competitive". My personal opinion is that it shouldn't be legal on track. I believe for the integrity of the sport, and the series, they should restore and enforce the original rules here in the USA. R

Hi Alan, Counter-steering is a skill riders develop confidence in with practice and incremental increases in effort. However, since I can't offer a scale for effort, perhaps I can offer a scale for time... The average street rider's turn in time is around ONE second. I believe students get right down to a HALF second. I would say that a fast racer's turn in time is around a QUARTER of a second. Is that better? At least it is a real scale and a target to aim for. Let me know what you think. Good luck, Bill

Hey Alan, Technically, the limit to how fast a rider can counter-steer is defined by how hard one can push/pull on the handlebars. The limit to the amount of force that the front tire can take is based on the amount of available traction at the front contact patch. On a TZ250 with hot race rubber, that limit is going to be pretty darn high IMO. At high speeds, more effort is required to turn a bike in and I will actually brace the counter-steer push all the way from my feet. And will even pull on the other bar as well. Honestly, I have never over-steered myself into a crash by flicking the front out from under me so hard that the bike lost traction from the flick. I suppose it is possible if one is quite strong in an off-camber corner or limited traction conditions like rain or a slippery surface or cold unscuffed new rubber. Bottom line, in my opinion, you can flick pretty darn fast on a 250. The bike can probably flick faster than you or I can...LOL. R

Hey tfc, Going fast is one goal. Passing or not getting passed is another goal. Both are used on track. See my braking posts. As for late apex vs early apex...I would need a more specific example. I can't think of one right now.

Hey tfc600, Quick turn in is acheived by quick counter-steering. For me, hanging off prior to turning in eliminates needing to shuffle about on the bike while turning in. Changing all the weight distribution or center of gravity at the same time that I am trying to turn the bike is distracting for me. Having the center of gravity preset and stable makes the turn in easier and more confident for me. As for lean angle(s), I have heard it said that there is a two step process to the "turn in" itself. The counter-steer to drop the bike over and then a slight adjustment to acheive final carving angle. But, I am less than completely clear on that. I just know that the faster you counter-steer the handlebars, the faster you get turned in. And the sooner you get to final carving altitude, er, final lean angle, the faster you can go. I'll have to let someone else take the other lean issues. Cheers, R

Hey iceman, It is difficult to make specific recommendations without knowing more about your level of riding and equipment. So, this may seem quite general or obvious. An advanced school will always be the most efficient method of gaining more insight into your own riding as the instructor's goal is to help you do just that. I have found that following quicker riders can help show just what part of the track you are slower on if it is just one or two spots. As an improvement technique it is limited by how long you can stay in touch with the faster rider. If the faster rider is more than a few tenths of a second per lap faster than you, you will be out of touch in just a lap or two. And once you match a close rider, you will need to find a new one to follow. Also, a cautionary note, attemping to follow a significantly faster rider can lead to getting sucked in over your head. Especially for more novice riders who aren't quite clear on their limits, yet. It would seem more efficient to ask a faster rider to follow you for a single lap and communicate specifically where you are holding them up. Of course, again, if there is a significant difference between you, you will be holding them up everywhere and it may be difficult for them to discern specifics. So, while both of these methods are valid for riding trackdays, both have inherent limits. And while asking a faster rider for a single lap critique seems the quickest route to knowing "where" you are slower, it might not help you to know "why" you are slower than they are. Another method that can accomplish the "where" is an assistant to use a stop watch to conduct "section timing". That is timing between specific points on the track within a single lap. One way to break it down might be the twisty, technical or slower sections vs the faster flowing sections for more specific data. But arbitrary sections can lead to the "where" and provide a starting point for further analysis. Experimenting based on a plan is a good thing. But it is difficult to make a plan without knowing just where you are now. Like planning a roadtrip, you can't get to "there" without knowing where "here" is. Awareness of "where" you are now (what you are doing now) is needed to for a starting point because you can't change what you are doing now if you don't know what you are doing now. Using techniques like closing your eyes and running a lap in your head with a stop watch will tell you just how aware you are now of what you are doing now. If the laptime in your mind is far off the real laptime, there is probably someplace or something you aren't clear about on track. Plans: it helps to have a road map from which to make a plan. I assume since you are on this site that you have read at least one of Keith Code's books. If you haven't, that would be a really good place to start. Keith has also posted comprehensive articles on this site about rider improvement and barriers to improvement. A note about blind experimentation: It can help, but, like arbitrarily trying this road or that, or trusting the man on the corner to give good directions, it is infinitely slower than a good map, a good navigator and a well plotted course. Equipment: while a faster bike may turn faster laptimes, it doesn't improve your riding. Whatever type or age of your machine, learning to keep it in the best condition and state of tune will avoid any mechanical flaw from holding YOU back. Of course, if one is riding an outdated model, one can't use other riders on newer or faster machinery for comparison. But that is what racing is for anyway. Comparison. If comparing yourself to other riders is important, then perhaps some club racing is in order. Warning: racing can be habit forming. But you will go faster. There is nothing like the feeling of being passed to light a fire or provide impetus to twist the wrist a bit more. Good luck, R

Hey Alan, A couple thoughts going back to your first post I forgot to mention... When the front gets light exiting corners under power, your weight on the handlebars or even a tight grip can really amplify or even cause that "headshake" you describe. I like sitting back in the seat with my weight more in my feet and I try not to lean on the bars or hang on too tight. Also, I used some potentially confusing phrasing in the second paragraph of my long second post to you. I try to keep the ideas of throttle and acceleration separate in my mind for just this reason. One can hold a constant throttle and still be accelerating. So, what I meant to say was that I crack the throttle on and try to be slightly accelerating as soon as possible to keep the weight distribution toward the rear. I really need to dig my books out of storage and order new ones to go over this stuff again as Keith has really worked it all out quite well. And, yes, I entirely agree with you. I think Keith should train me and send me to New Zealand to open a school there.

Hey Keith and jrock, Me and my theories, huh? "No no no, it's the gyro thing, I'm tellin' ya!" I swear I'm gonna prove anti-gravity with that rear wheel one of these days. Thank you Keith for clearing that up. R

Hi Alan, I remember Dominic and Sam. Maybe Dominic can lead the way and open the door. Sam's a good guy, too. I hope he does well. I must say it was pretty cool to get to participate in that legendary racing community I had read about in books and magazines. I met Andy several times up here with the Britten. And I only knew of Shaun from his Isle of Mann races, but, never imagined then that I would get to hangout with these characters in their hometown element so to speak. Not to mention everyone else. Anway, it's my pleasure to make your acquaintance. I hope I can visit again soon. Bill

Hey Alan, Good looking photos! Let's not forget the rest of the international racing Kiwi's, eh? Shaun Harris, Andrew Stroud and Jason Easton to name a few! All of whom have shone their light on the world stage kicking arse on the big dogs! Or some credit to John Britten and Burt Munro! And the many up and coming riders and those who support them at home in New Zealand! Good luck! Let us know how you do! Bill

Hey guys, Now that you have a photo of the front wheel turned in, you need to get one with the rear wheel hung out! Note: This opinion does not reflect the opinons or views of the administration. Proceed at your own risk. R

Hey Killadude and Poncho, Front wheel turned to the inside is why motorcycle turns. The countersteer knocks it over into the lean, but the front wheel turned into the corner is why it arcs through the corners. This a consensus opinion based on the results of more than one experiment conducted by members attaching pointers to indicate center on the steering stem and triple tree. Check it out! I'll leave the official school position on this technical matter up to a staff tech rep. Awesome photos! R

Hey all, I've come across some questions about braking into corners and/or trail braking here today and yesterday and I noticed someone else reading here, too. So, I've decided to bump this thread and say that I like Steve M's answer as the best goal of proper braking, IMO. IF for whatever reason one finds oneself still on the brakes past the turn in point, then IMO one needs to progressively let off or "trail" the brake off into the corner. First, because as you lean over you have less contact patch and traction left over for braking forces. Second, to keep the suspension settled like Steve said again. And, for me, in that trail braking situation, I think I start to add throttle at the same time I am letting off the last of the brake.

Hey Alan, The best throttle technique is to begin dialing on the throttle smoothly as soon as possible after getting the bike turned in. "...as I start to bring the power on (I keep a constant throttle as soon as I've finished braking)..." I'm not exactly clear on what your comments here mean. Are you trailbraking into the corner or finishing your braking before you start to turn? Properly, one finishes braking prior to turning in with the throttle closed and once a lean angle has been established, cracks open the throttle and continues to apply throttle in a smooth and progressive fashion. So, I'm not quite clear about where or why you are holding a constant throttle. "...at about 9000 rpm, the power really packs a punch to what I have been used to." The power distribution of a two stroke roadracer is different than a four stroke. On a four stroke, there is usable power pretty much throughout the rev range with progressively more power as the revs rise. On a two stroke roadracer, there is practically nothing below the "powerband" at the top end of the rev range. The goal is to always keep the revs in the powerband which seems to start at about 9000 rpm on your bike. That way there shouldn't be a "violent kicking in" of power when you cross above 9000 rpm into the powerband. Yes, slipping the cluch is not a desirable thing to do. Neither is falling below 9000 rpm a desirable thing to do. In that situation, without being able to carry a bit more speed or the luxury of a lower first gear set for the tranny, slipping the clutch is the only answer to get the bike moving back into the managable power band and avoid "power violently kicking in" in a first gear hairpin. "I am constanly dogged by the fear of the power violently kicking in and the rear letting go." Keith Code has many excellent chapters or articles on this website regarding one's mental or psychological frame of mind and approach to riding and how to overcome barriers like fear of the violent power monster kicking in... You are right. I have to agree that starting your club racing career on a 250 might be a tad ambitious. However, racing is all about ambition, so, you seem to have the right attitude. And since you already have some track experience with a 600, I see every reason to believe that you can slay all dragons with more good information and riding experience. What else can you do? Eh? As for how I know Dave Cole... I helped out with Dave and Trisail tuning for Midge Smart during his 03-04 NZ 125GP champs campaign. Needless to say it was an awesome summer traveling around NZ in a caravan with the likes of Dave Cole and the rest of the utterly mad Kiwi racers on the circuit. Not to mention winning all the races...except Ruapuna, of course. I'm sure that had nothing to do with the all night out in Kaikoura on our way south to Christchurch, but, that's another story. One of so many. Anyhow, it sounds like you have good support with Karel and Lester there. And I'm certain Keith will be about to add his nickel. It is his website after all. Please let us all know how you get on. Cheers mate. Bill

Hey jrock, I didn't talk about a specific technique of how to go about picking up the bike in the braking posts because it didn't really go directly to REDRIDER's question. And I didn't want to confuse an already long post. But, it did cross my mind that this is important. And, it seems like most everyone who has ridden a motorcycle has the same idea as you do. Actually, I think you might be onto something here. Under hard acceleration, it feels like my bike wants to stand up, too. Somebody else said that jammin on the front brake makes their bike do the same thing. How weird is that, huh? Hard acceleration AND hard braking both seem to make the bike want to stand up. AND... Regardless of throttle or brake input, we've pretty well established that a rider can counter-steer a bike up and down using just steering input at the handlebars. So, I pondered it for a little while this afternoon and came back to it tonight and here's what I think: We seem to have a consensus that the driving force behind counter-steering is the momentum of the bike itself. When a rider turns the wheel to the left, the forward inertia of the machine tries to go straight sorta knockin the bike over to the right. And, it's been demonstrated by somebody else here, when a bike is leaned over, that the front wheel is slightly cocked or turned to the inside when it is balanced in the turn. Hence, why the bike goes in a circle, it really is steering into the turn at lean. Now, if you can imagine it, by turning the front wheel even more to the inside, that same inertia or forward momentum is what picks the bike up again in the exact reverse of knockin it over. Counter-steering the bike back up, that inertia drives the bike back up and over the cocked front wheel. Well, Keith Code has demonstrated with millions of miles and decades of proof that a little bit of acceleration will keep a motorcycle balanced in a turn. BUT...when a rider accelerates HARD that increase in forward momentum does the same thing as counter-steering does. It forces the bike up again because that wheel is cocked to the inside of the turn. When you add forward force, you drive the bike up over that cocked front wheel just like counter-steering. What is really wild, is that if you hit the brakes, you get the same sort of forward force over that front wheel which does the same thing again. The weight of the bike gets thrown forward under braking and tries to go up over that cocked front wheel again. In more techinical terms, the ratio of force to the angle of steering offset in the wheel is increased in both instances. One by adding more angle to overcome equilibrium and lever the bike in counter-steering up, second by adding more force to the lever in acceleration or braking. So, that's my theory. There may be some gyro forces at the rear wheel to consider once the bike starts coming up that allow a rider to lift the front wheel and continue the upward motion coming out of a turn under hard acceleration, but, I believe that might be secondary to the action we have been discussing. Crazy, huh? So, I agree with your observation that hard acceleration will stand the bike up but the statement you were responding to is also correct in that counter-steering will also stand the bike up and do it more quickly and precisely than simply accelerating because, in technical terms again, changing the offset of the steering angle has a much greater effect on that angle to force ratio. Sufficed to say, hard acceleration/braking will bring the bike up as will steering input at the handlebars. And steering input at the handlebars will bring it up faster. I'll let the steering guru tell you how and when to do which. Think it over. Try it out. Tell me what you think. Cheers, R

Hey jrock, The simple answer to your first question is that you don't see every single motogp rider trailbrake into corners under normal circumstances. It might be difficult to see that from a TV screen. I've only attended or worked for a handful of riding or racing schools but I can tell you that, in twenty years of riding or racing, none of the schools I have seen taught that trailbraking was an advanced technique to get around the track faster. It might be that trailbraking is discussed as part of the passing or pass prevention technique I mentioned in my previous post, but, that is a very specific situation and is about getting in front of another rider, not about being fast. A rider who charges into corners or engages in braking duels will post slower laptimes. R

Hey jrock, How does acceleration make the bike stand up?

Hey Alan, The throttle technique remains the same. With that in mind, the powerband will be higher in the rev range and a bit narrower. The first trick is to keep the motor in that rev range and "on the pipe" in the first place. As far as falling out of the powerband, slipping the clutch is the standard technique to build revs back into the power band. So, when exiting a slow first gear turn, try "fanning" or slipping the clutch a bit to get the motor back into the powerband if you can't carry more speed. Inside the power band you shouldn't be experiencing any sudden or "light switch" power changes. That being said, two stroke roadracers do require critical tuning of the carburetor and there might be some adjustments needed there. The airscrew adjusts the first 1/8 of throttle opening and overlaps a bit with the needle diameter as the fuel circuit shifts to the main jet tube at the 1/8-1/4 throttle opening. Though I am planning to return to NZ soon, I can't tune your bike over the internet. In the meantime, I can refer you to a friend of mine who is an excellent 250 tuner and a NZ 250 national champion named Dave Cole who lives near Pukekohe outside Auckland. He has a motorcycle business under the same name. Dave Cole Engineering I think. He won't be hard to find. Everyone knows him and I know he raced last year as I saw his results online. You can tell him I sent you if you want. Keith Code himself has raced more than a few laps on a TZ250 and should be able to offer more riding advice. Cheers Oh, tell Dave that Bill from America said "HOWDY".

There is much more infromation regarding these subjects contained in the Twist of the Wrist books.

Hey botte, I don't see where jrfuisz talks about exactly what you are, however, jrfuisz is speakng about riding on gravel roads or dirt tracks in his last post. In this situation there needs to be a minimum amount of weight to create bite or traction to begin with because the surface is "loose". It can be a little confusing. My off-road and dirt track experience is limited though. Perhaps a more experienced dirt tracker can explain it better. Ideally, now that I think of it, jrfuisz is probably the best person to respond to your questions on his posts. Doh! Cheers.

Hey REDRIDER and everybody else, I'll start with a quote of REDRIDER's original question. Please forgive me for not using the quote function button to better highlight the quotes thoughout this post. I'm techinically forum challenged. "I was recently ask a question, how do you apply heavy braking at high speed in a steep lean angle? My answer was you don't. Is this correct? I would think that you would have to start picking the bike up." You are correct, in a nutshell, you don't. And, yes again, you need to start picking up the bike first before applying "heavy braking". I cannot think of a normal riding situation where one would want to apply "heavy braking" while leaned over. In any braking situation, the limits of braking are tied to available traction which will be determined by stresses at the contact patch. Leaning over reduces the size of the contact patch. While riding "at high speed while leaned over", the front tire is already going to be near the maximum limits of traction due to the cornering forces applied to the now smaller contact patch. Reducing the stress on the contact patch and increasing available traction is accomplished by standing the bike up to reduce the cornering forces and create a larger contact patch to which you can now add more stress (braking force). The more you stand it up, the more brakes you can apply. While "dragging" the rear brake might be better than using the front brake in this extreme situation, remember that ANY deceleration will add more weight and stress to the front tire. Just rolling off the gas will increase the stress on the front contact patch. It is possible to be leaned over at a some speed and not be at the absolute limts of traction. And, in an emergency, to be able to use some degree of braking while leaned over. Generally, the braking action itself will cause the bike to start to stand up at which point a rider can gradually increase braking effort. As for what the "pro's" do with the rear brake, or "trail braking" into a corner, neither of these relates to the conditions of REDRIDER's question. However, I do want to clarify a couple points with regard to jrock's post. First, trail braking is generally the last part of a "late braking" pass or an attempt to prevent such a pass by another rider. It is NOT the best way to get through a corner fast. In fact, by trail braking into a turn you lose potential entry speed due to the LIMITED traction available because of the BRAKING stress being applied to the tire already. The late braking pass technique is also referred to as a BLOCK pass just for the reason that the passing rider tends to PARK the bike in front of the passed rider who must roll off the gas to avoid crashing into the other rider or choose another line if available. Late braking is also used to outbrake or prevent another rider from passing under braking. Sometimes evenly matched racers will engage in braking duels, especially near the end of a race. Trail braking can also be a survival reaction when a rider perceives their entry speed as being too fast. However, dragging the brakes into the apex frequently creates more trouble with the extra stress on the tire while leaning in. Often a rider who feels a bit too fast at entry is better off flicking it in and adding more gas. But I will let the guru handle that subject. "• If you do all of your braking before the turn then you haven’t entered the turn as fast as you could have, if you were to continue slowing right up until apex." I disagree with this statement. If you finish your braking before the turn you will have more traction leftover to use for speed. You will also be able to flick the bike faster as there will be less weight on the front wheel. Also, being on the brakes compresses and binds the forks preventing the suspension from doing its job of keeping the tire in contact with a bumpy road. "• Braking in a straight line does not give you the same braking distance as a curved line does." I am not clear on the meaning of that statement. Relative braking distances will be MUCH shorter in a straight line than in a corner, again, because there is much more avaiable traction from a larger contact patch and zero cornering forces allowing much stronger braking. "• Being on the brakes and turning in changes the geometry of the bike so that you can turn in a bit quicker." The compressed forks will create a steeper steering head angle and less axle trail in the geometry making the front less stable. HOWEVER, the braking forces will make the front of the bike and the steering effectively HEAVIER and SLOWER. And, again, there is less traction available due to the extra braking stresses at the contact patch. Besides, just being off the gas will create some fork compression and "quicken" the steering geometry with lots more traction leftover for speed. "... most professionals I have talked with say that you can get away with much more aggressive braking than one might imagine while leaned deep and that there is some physics formula out there that backs up their claim. I recently went to a school where they covered the formula, I will try and dig up my notes and will post. Essentially though, it tells us that the relationship between braking and lean angle is not directly proportional." I believe whatever "professionals" made this claim were very much mistaken. I think that the relationship between braking and lean angle is very much DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL. Please post the 'formula' from your notes. I'd really like to see it. Can you remember the name of the school that "covered" it? Happy riding everybody!

I don't see a big difference between the two head-on photos. Your position isn't horrible but in both photos your head and by extension your upper spine seems to be pointed at the middle of the windscreen. Try leading with your head off to the side, kissing the mirror, as they say. As far as needing to "sit nearer the tank", I'm not sure what you mean. I think it will be easier to get your head low if you shift your butt rearward in the seat which will also help you stay "low and long" as they say. If you mean that you need to get your chest down nearer to the tank, then, yes. In general, the more you can stay behind the bubble, the less wind resistance you will create = better aerodynamics. Also, if you start down low, it will be easier to simply shift sideways since you are already low on the bike.

Hey all, I discovered this evening that, although Bridgehampton Raceway was sold and converted into a golf course some years ago, the sequence of turns I talk through in my first post, and only those turns as it happens, still exist and can be viewed on Google Earth. Check out the north shore of the south fork of Long Island, NY where the Little Peconic Bay becomes the Noyack Bay near Mill Creek. You can't miss it. The tilt function doesn't really do justice to the elevation change from on top of the front straight to the bottom of the hill between turn two and turn three. There is a kink past the bridge clockwise that is turn one. In any case, the drop is about 80 feet or so. About equal to the drop from the bridge to the front straight at Road Atlanta. After a long 3/4 mile straight, with the appropriate gearing at redline in 6th gear, I would roll off (no brakes) and backshift just once under the bridge, drop over the edge and pin 5th gear down the hill through T1 and T2 catching 6th gear for the run to T3. The challenge on a lightweight machine, like Road Atlanta, was not to back off before T2 which I would guess-timate was over 100 MPH. If memory serves, it was only one or two rear teeth more than Daytona gearing.

If travel/lodging expense is of no concern... The best logical answer is: The track that incorporates the greatest variety of corner types. A good training track, as Keith would say. That being said... It might be considered improper for the school to recommend a particular track. So... Oddly enough, I'm going to suggest a track I have never ridden. Namely VIR. And I would choose VIR because it is a classical road course and a four star facility built on a beautiful site. Sort of like riding around a golf course. It seems to have a variety of corners in a very safe configuration. And, of course, I've never ridden there before. Other than that, my first love is still Mid-Ohio and I can't wait to go back since they repaved it. I've waited nearly twenty years for Mid-Ohio to be resurfaced without the concrete patches. Like VIR, it is a very beautiful place. To me, Mid-Ohio represents the ultimate Sunday gran prix through the rolling countryside. It has medium speed corners and is a wonderful technical challenge, which is what I prefer. Blind, crested corners with camber and elevation changes arranged in a flowing combination that never stops. Every corner exit line is critical to set up correctly for the next corner entry. Really fun. You might also consider what great famous track you might have the least opportunity to ride ... like Laguna Seca or Watkins Glen which both have their own unique and awesome characterisitcs, especially if you're a fan of big hills or fast roller coasters. Or combine with the best race weekend to spectate and whet your appetite prior to the school. This is probabaly not being helpful. I suppose each track has a different character to learn and all tracks have something good to offer for training. Man, talk about the ultimate trip. Any track on a school bike. I'm jealous.

The Relaxed Onion. That's excellent. I'm seein' a cool, hip cafe with that name over the door. House specials to include...sorry. Seriously, though, another awesome analogy that transfers to SO many other activities in life. Thanks again. Onion boy.