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Body Position - Help (pics)


avih
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Hi,

 

I'm constantly working on my BP and I'd appreciate your help and feedback. My issue is the knee. It just doesn't touch the asphalt. I'm not TRYING to touch it (I imagine it wouldn't be hard if I aim for it), but I also thought that with my current cornering speed and BP it should have touched the track by now (riders which I follow which seem to have similar cornering speed seems to firmly scrape the asphalt). I don't want to sacrifice(?) a comfortable/good(?) BP just for the sake of putting my knee down, but I'm interested in your opinion as for why it doesn't touch the track (see pics below).

 

I'm 1.85, I feel comfortable with my current BP, I think left and right turns are mostly symmetric, my elbow is usually resting on the tank, my upper body is to the inside (see pics, the suit's zipper is on the inner side of the tank I think), my butt is 1/3 - 1/2 out and on the back of the seat, outer knee resting comfortably on the tank and I feel pretty 'glued' to the bike, and my knee seems miles from the track.

 

Again, I'm not trying to force my knee down. I'm just trying to understand the current situation.

 

- Is the cornering speed too low/bike is not leaning far enough?

- Is my butt not out enough? not low enough? too far back?

- Are my legs not spread enough?

- Is my upper body position OK?

 

Any other comments regarding the knee or other issues are most welcome.

 

Thanks in advance

 

CBR1000RR yesterday at Serres Racing Circuit, Greece:

 

f_IMG52621km_68a1742.jpg

 

f_IMG60281km_2744802.jpg

 

f_IMG68731km_ce8ea4e.jpg

 

f_IMG46071km_7e08732.jpg

 

f_IMG60851km_22ca298.jpg

 

f_IMG66161km_828d5fe.jpg

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The only thing I notice in the first pic is that your knee isn't out very far. It looks like your toes will touch just about the same time your knee would. I do scrape my toes from time to time, but that is only after my knee has been dragging and I pulled my knee in.

 

One thing that I was looking for but didn't see was twisting around the tank, resulting in a poor body position. When I first tried to touch me knee down I would strain (like a moron) to get my knee closer to the ground and ended up twisting my hips and actually ending up with my knee farther from the pavement. I stopped trying and it touched.

 

Sorry I couldn't help any more.

 

I will say that when you do touch watch out, those Dainese pucks are about as resilient as butter. I am a little too heavy on my pucks, but I flew through the Dainese pucks.

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I noticed a couple things.

1- It seems that your knee is in, rather that out.

2- Your toes. Use the balls of your feet rather than the step of your heel.

 

Before my first time, I had everything right and when I quit focusing on it and working on lines, throttle control, etc I felt something grab my leathers. During the lap I thought about it and realized it was the ground. I then resolved to go faster thru that corner and within 2 laps it happened. Touchdown!

 

Prior to that, a coach at NESBA had been trying to get me to touchdown. The results of that were bad.

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Hello again, avih. Welcome back.

 

Your general body position is not too bad, I think you just need to get your head and shoulders down and maybe get a wee bit further off the bike. That, and stick your knee out further. Look at the guy behind you to the right in picture four. You can see half his body exactly behind yours in the shot perfectly. Everything is parallel between you except for your lower leg and knee. Look at the difference in angle between his lower leg and yours.

 

A general rule of thumb says, the bigger the bike, the more you need to hang off. Not just to reach the ground, but, also to affect the center of gravity. In general, I think you could hang off a little more. Most importantly, I think you are a little too upright. Try to get your upper torso, shoulders and head lower if you can. You want your head down lower and a bit more over off to the side, "kissing the mirror" if it were there. And the same with your bum, keeping your body in line parallel with the bike.

 

How far back in the seat are you? I know you are tall, but, can you slide back any further? It might help you stretch out a bit and get your shoulders down.

 

What are you doing with your outside leg? Are you locked on?

 

So...

 

1. Slide back a bit if you can.

 

2. Get your head and upper torso down lower.

 

3. Then mabe get a little more off the bike if you can remembering to stay parallel.

 

4. Stick your knee out more.

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

racer

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Jaybird180, you mean the inner foot?? it's most definitely NOT on the steps of my heel. I thought it was on the peg pretty close to my toes, but maybe I can get it even further. I find it a bit hard though because that would get my ankle and knee bent even more, especially with my big feet and long legs. Do you think it affects the knee not touching the ground?

 

Or maybe you mean the outer foot? I find it comfortable this way and I saw many pro riders land their foot this way. Also, I'm quite tall so putting the foot this way doesn't limit my butt position and I feel pretty planted to the bike even without the "California raise" (?).

 

What do you mean by "knee in rather than out"? It's more or less the most I can spread it. Maybe I'm not flexible enough? Although I think it's something else in my BP rather than more spread of the legs. I might be wrong though...

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Racer, thx for the re-welcome :).. and for your reply..

 

So you recon I should hang off more. Get butt and chest further out, and head/shoulders lower. I can try that. I can say though that my butt is resting only one cheek on the seat. Should it still "sit" on the seat while I hang off? or is it mostly the thigh/hip? Also, I'm as back on the seat as it allows me. I'm touching the back part of it.

 

As for the outer knee, it's not locked between the peg and the tank "California raise" style (this tank didn't have that edge to lock onto), but it is pretty much "glued" to the bike and it feels pretty solid. As far as I can tell, I don't put any/much weight on the bars.

 

Thanks again for the tips. It would probably be a while till I get back on a track so I might try it at an empty parking lot or something similar..

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The amount you are hanging off in some of the pic's is probably perfect for a 125 or 250 or a smaller bike. The one cheek sneak is probably even good for a 600. And you don't look much different from some pro-racers. But, according to the school's technique, your head should be down next to the windscreen. I know it must be more difficult for a taller person. I'm only about 1.70 so it's probably different for me. One of the coaches with more experience could probably say better for a taller rider.

 

Also, getting your upper body further over off the bike might make it easier to get it down lower.

 

Otherwise, just lean the bike over further and stick your knee out more... :lol:

 

Good luck!

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Good tips, thanks.

 

I'm trying to understand how to "sit". Is it really sitting? should I put weight on my butt? or does hanging off more mean I'll have to "sit" on the outer side and put much of the weight in the thigh/hip which should be on the seat?

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Good tips, thanks.

 

I'm trying to understand how to "sit". Is it really sitting? should I put weight on my butt? or does hanging off more mean I'll have to "sit" on the outer side and put much of the weight in the thigh/hip which should be on the seat?

 

 

Not sure what the school says about weight, but I put the vast majority of my weight (5' 10" - 265 lbs) on my inner peg, so there really is little weight on my butt. It is actually pretty comfortable for me even though I have pretty thick thighs, but maybe the thick thighs make it easier to put so much weight on my inside foot and still feel very comfortable. It took me a little while to get comfortable like that but once I was comfortable, it is great. I also am in better position for the bike to more underneath me in bumps and unintentional brief slides (slip and catch).

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I'm trying to understand how to "sit". Is it really sitting? should I put weight on my butt? or does hanging off more mean I'll have to "sit" on the outer side and put much of the weight in the thigh/hip which should be on the seat?

 

I (try to) keep my weight in my feet, avih. (Evenly distributed between them.)

 

The only time I'm (purposely) sitting on the seat is to rest down the straightaways.

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I keep my weight in my feet, avih.

 

The only time I'm sitting on the seat is down the straightaways.

Oh? I didn't expect this answer. Will have to reconsider and try many aspects for that, I think. Although much of my weight is on the pegs (inner one mostly as far as I can notice) and on the outer leg which is locked to the tank, I'm definitely sitting in turns and putting considerable weight on my butt too.

 

Need some time and practice to check that out.

 

Thanks again for the info.

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FWIW, I didn't start to ride that way, on the pegs, until I switched to a GP bike. And it was then that I really took my riding to a new level. Sort of a 'me taking the bike for a ride' vs. 'the bike taking me for a ride' kind of thing.* It does take a good bit of leg strength, but, it essentially lowers the point where you attach yourself closer to the bike's center of gravity and makes the bike much easier to control, as opposed to having your weight up so high on the seat.

 

I try to keep my weight evenly distributed between both pegs. Like I'm standing on the pegs crouching down low. I'm told that weighting the inside peg can help intiate a slide. Or that weighting the outsde peg can help control a slide. I only started experimenting with sliding the rear on purpose in the last year before I quit racing, so, I can't offer too much personal insight into that. However, I did find that being on the pegs gave me better control of many things.

 

 

* When I drive a car, I may be strenuously working the pedals, steering wheel and gearshifter; but, I am basically strapped into a chair operating the controls of a big box with wheels. I am essentially sitting in a seat and 'along for the ride'. Riding a motorcycle is nothing like that for me. It's more like me doing gymnastics with wheels attached to my hands and feet... if that makes any sense to you. There's really no "sitting" involved.

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I know this pegs weight theory. Inner peg weight can contribute to slide, outer peg helps stop sliding (I know the latter is true from my supermotard experience, but I don't have personal experience with the former although I do weight it considerably).

 

I tried many times to keep the weight on the outer peg while in a turn, but while I'm hanging off, it seems that due to my BP, the weight shifts inwards. However, I also found out that during steering, weight on the intended inner peg helps the steering action and causes the bike to "drop" faster.

 

I also understand and appreciate this pleasure of "dancing" on the pegs, especially while quickly shifting weight from side to side, as in chicanes. However, once I settle into turning BP, hanging off, I AM putting weight on the seat too. As I said, I'll have to try and check if I'm able to comfortably put less weight there. I hope my knees would hold on as they're not in perfect condition after many years as a professional volleyball player and as a squash hobbyist..

 

Obviously, my experience is much more limited than yours but hey, that's why I ask :)

 

BTW, regarding the "lower COG due to more weight on the pegs" claim, It's not true. While I do believe and understand that putting more weight on the pegs helps stabilize the bike and prevents wobbling, it's not due to lower COG. It's due to our legs/knees/ankles acting as extra dampers, further isolating the body mass from the bike's mass, thus limiting the wobbling effect to the bike and preventing our body from acting as an amplifier to the unwanted movements, which is helping the bike stabilize itself. COG is a function of where the MASSES are, rather than where they're CONNECTED to each other. However, I do believe this discussion belongs to a different topic ;)

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"I try to keep my weight evenly distributed between both pegs. Like I'm standing on the pegs crouching down low. I'm told that weighting the inside peg can help intiate a slide. Or that weighting the outsde peg can help control a slide. "

 

 

 

Racer, I have never understood the weighting the pegs thing. My weight is on the inside peg because the vast majority of my mass is over my inside peg. I have no ability to weight my outside peg if my mass is over my inside peg. So, for my understanding of physics, if you are hanging off to one side you can not have both pegs equally weighted. It just doesn't balance.

 

Is there something I am missing? I have heard some very skilled riders talking about weighting a certain peg, but I don't see how it can be a function of anything but body position -- mass distribution and the reaction points. Putting your knee into the tank will only reduce your overturning moment (since I have seen you use the term moment), this further reduces the amount of weight you can put on the outside peg.

 

I do not want you to confuse this with arguing with you, because I am not. I just do not understand how it could be physically possible.

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BTW, regarding the "lower COG due to more weight on the pegs" claim, It's not true. While I do believe and understand that putting more weight on the pegs helps stabilize the bike and prevents wobbling, it's not due to lower COG. It's due to our legs/knees/ankles acting as extra dampers, further isolating the body mass from the bike's mass, thus limiting the wobbling effect to the bike and preventing our body from acting as an amplifier to the unwanted movements, which is helping the bike stabilize itself. COG is a function of where the MASSES are, rather than where they're CONNECTED to each other. ;)

 

My apologies for such an unfortunate choice of words. I did not mean to imply, scientifically, that the rider/bike combined CoG is actually altered. I was pressed for time and uncertain how to express the concept precisely or concisely, hence, I attempted to qualify my remark with what might be considered colloquial phrasing. By using the word "essentially", I meant "from a practical standpoint", ie. the effect it has on how the bike handles. Perhaps I should have used the word "effectively". Hindsight is 20/20. :)

 

That said, however, it is more than a mere matter of legs acting as dampers. While this does occur, especially in motocross or even over rough pavement, and having your weight attached higher does create a longer moment arm for lateral torque/oscillation, this is about more than simply limiting or attenuating amplification of unwanted movements. The salient point is that where you attach yourself to the bike does, in fact, have a significant effect on how the bike reacts to control inputs. Hence, from a practical standpoint, and with a shorter moment arm, the bike reacts as if the mass were "more centralized", if you prefer, because, in fact, from the machine's point of view, it is.

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"I try to keep my weight evenly distributed between both pegs. Like I'm standing on the pegs crouching down low. I'm told that weighting the inside peg can help intiate a slide. Or that weighting the outsde peg can help control a slide. "

 

 

 

Racer, I have never understood the weighting the pegs thing. My weight is on the inside peg because the vast majority of my mass is over my inside peg. I have no ability to weight my outside peg if my mass is over my inside peg. So, for my understanding of physics, if you are hanging off to one side you can not have both pegs equally weighted. It just doesn't balance.

 

Is there something I am missing? I have heard some very skilled riders talking about weighting a certain peg, but I don't see how it can be a function of anything but body position -- mass distribution and the reaction points. Putting your knee into the tank will only reduce your overturning moment (since I have seen you use the term moment), this further reduces the amount of weight you can put on the outside peg.

 

I do not want you to confuse this with arguing with you, because I am not. I just do not understand how it could be physically possible.

 

It's a matter of angular acceleration and centripetal force.

 

Ride faster. :P

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"I try to keep my weight evenly distributed between both pegs. Like I'm standing on the pegs crouching down low. I'm told that weighting the inside peg can help intiate a slide. Or that weighting the outsde peg can help control a slide. "

 

 

 

Racer, I have never understood the weighting the pegs thing. My weight is on the inside peg because the vast majority of my mass is over my inside peg. I have no ability to weight my outside peg if my mass is over my inside peg. So, for my understanding of physics, if you are hanging off to one side you can not have both pegs equally weighted. It just doesn't balance.

 

Is there something I am missing? I have heard some very skilled riders talking about weighting a certain peg, but I don't see how it can be a function of anything but body position -- mass distribution and the reaction points. Putting your knee into the tank will only reduce your overturning moment (since I have seen you use the term moment), this further reduces the amount of weight you can put on the outside peg.

 

I do not want you to confuse this with arguing with you, because I am not. I just do not understand how it could be physically possible.

 

It's a matter of angular acceleration and centripetal force.

 

Ride faster. :P

 

 

It wouldn't appear that you could generate enough centripetal acceleration of the bike and rider about the turning radius to create any significant angular acceleration about the CG (fore/aft axis) to be able to alter your reaction at your outside peg. The overall force in a turn should be very close to the mid-plane of the bike. So the centripetal acceleration (or force if you like) is offsetting the acceleration of gravity...and hence you have a lean angle that is at equilibrium.

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racer lol, glad you could finally find the time to thank me for saving the poor kids from IE ;)

 

On a slightly more serious note, I saw this notion more than once and I thought it was worth mentioning that it shouldn't be taken literally.

 

To the point, I think you're right about "effective" and the longer moment arm when referring to shock absorption and wobbling damping . However, IMHO the perceived extra agility and better control when more weight is on the pegs is due to the fact that you steer less mass that way. You steer the bike but not the body due to the extra isolation, therefore it's easier, but a less effective action.

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"I try to keep my weight evenly distributed between both pegs. Like I'm standing on the pegs crouching down low. I'm told that weighting the inside peg can help intiate a slide. Or that weighting the outsde peg can help control a slide. "

 

 

 

Racer, I have never understood the weighting the pegs thing. My weight is on the inside peg because the vast majority of my mass is over my inside peg. I have no ability to weight my outside peg if my mass is over my inside peg. So, for my understanding of physics, if you are hanging off to one side you can not have both pegs equally weighted. It just doesn't balance.

 

Is there something I am missing? I have heard some very skilled riders talking about weighting a certain peg, but I don't see how it can be a function of anything but body position -- mass distribution and the reaction points. Putting your knee into the tank will only reduce your overturning moment (since I have seen you use the term moment), this further reduces the amount of weight you can put on the outside peg.

 

I do not want you to confuse this with arguing with you, because I am not. I just do not understand how it could be physically possible.

 

It's a matter of angular acceleration and centripetal force.

 

Ride faster. :P

 

 

It wouldn't appear that you could generate enough centripetal acceleration of the bike and rider about the turning radius to create any significant angular acceleration about the CG (fore/aft axis) to be able to alter your reaction at your outside peg. The overall force in a turn should be very close to the mid-plane of the bike. So the centripetal acceleration (or force if you like) is offsetting the acceleration of gravity...and hence you have a lean angle that is at equilibrium.

 

"It wouldn't appear..."?

 

What does that mean?

 

The fulcrum of the moment arm (if you will) that is the motorcycle is effectively defined by the contact patch(es) of the tires because the motorcycle is essentially a rigid body with no choice in the matter. The limit of that relationship is defined by available traction.

 

What defines your moment arm? Are you a rigid body? Do you have a choice?

 

 

For the record, my point was that I don't attempt to push on one peg or actively "weight" one peg more than another. That statement speaks to my efforts. Whether that means my "weight" (if you prefer) is perfectly balanced between the two pegs is another matter I suppose.

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racer lol, glad you could finally find the time to thank me for saving the poor kids from IE ;)

 

On a slightly more serious note, I saw this notion more than once and I thought it was worth mentioning that it shouldn't be taken literally.

 

To the point, I think you're right about "effective" and the longer moment arm when referring to shock absorption and wobbling damping . However, IMHO the perceived extra agility and better control when more weight is on the pegs is due to the fact that you steer less mass that way. You steer the bike but not the body due to the extra isolation, therefore it's easier, but a less effective action.

 

I don't know what notion or "perceived extra agility" you are refering to, but, I don't quite follow what you mean wrt steering less mass or less effective action. Your body is still connected to the machine and moves with it, no?

 

In a nutshell, the footpegs are closer to the bike's center of gravity and the z-axis (roll), so, there should be less resistance to steering input. In any case, the footpegs make a more effective or efficient point from which to intitiate steering input.

 

Have you read the Twist of the Wrist books?

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Racer, thx for the re-welcome :).. and for your reply..

 

So you recon I should hang off more. Get butt and chest further out, and head/shoulders lower. I can try that. I can say though that my butt is resting only one cheek on the seat. Should it still "sit" on the seat while I hang off? or is it mostly the thigh/hip? Also, I'm as back on the seat as it allows me. I'm touching the back part of it.

 

As for the outer knee, it's not locked between the peg and the tank "California raise" style (this tank didn't have that edge to lock onto), but it is pretty much "glued" to the bike and it feels pretty solid. As far as I can tell, I don't put any/much weight on the bars.

 

Thanks again for the tips. It would probably be a while till I get back on a track so I might try it at an empty parking lot or something similar..

 

The outside foot should be up on the toe. Then your knee jammed into the tank. This is the gist of the "calf raise" the school suggests you "lock on" with. Applying Stomp Grip traction pads to your tank should help with that. But even if your knee isn't jammed into the upper lip, I think you should still be able to get some weight up there.

 

http://www.stompdesign.com/stompgrip/home.asp

 

 

Edit: I looked at your pictures again and I don't know if you really need to hang off more. The school says you should be lower. I don't know if that will help get your knee down, but, it does look like you could stick your knee out further.

 

What year is your CBR? How wide is the tank at the seat?

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It wouldn't appear that you could generate enough centripetal acceleration of the bike and rider about the turning radius to create any significant angular acceleration about the CG (fore/aft axis) to be able to alter your reaction at your outside peg. The overall force in a turn should be very close to the mid-plane of the bike. So the centripetal acceleration (or force if you like) is offsetting the acceleration of gravity...and hence you have a lean angle that is at equilibrium.

 

When you hang off, the CoG is off-set from the mid-plane of the bike. As I understand it, the overall downward force follows the CoG. Hence, why the bike follows the same line when hanging-off/standing up more. So, the down force does not change. It remains where it was. With the bike more upright this should give the angle of force from your body an "overturning moment" around the z-axis (longitudinal).

 

In any case, one way to get off the inside peg is to lock onto the tank with your outer leg.

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I'm not consistent yet, but fixing your upper torso will do miracles for you getting your outside thigh more pushed into the bike. Slide your butt more back. I'm learning new stuff every time I go out now that I put my butt more to the back. The only thing you need to do with your lower body if you want to get your knee down is slide your butt a little more off the seat, and turn your foot so your toes are pointing more outward.

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racer, yes, I've read the Twist Of The Wrist books (1 & 2). The CBR is 2K4 I think (previously a Ten Kate SBK bike) and the tank is quite wide, at least wider than other bikes I've ridden. It's not my bike and the feedback I was hoping for was more general (which I got plenty of thus far, thank you).

 

Regarding weighting the pegs, I didn't intend to start an off topic discussion and I mostly agree with you. I don't try to put specific weight on either peg, but I did notice that I put more weight on the inner peg while inside a turn and that putting weight on the inner peg during steering action makes the steering faster.

 

I can also try the calf raise (mistakenly referred to by me as "California raise") which I don't currently practice. I had the impression it is used for locking the leg onto the tank, and since I feel pretty planted and comfortable as is, and I saw that many (most?) pro riders use similar foot position to mine, I didn't feel a need to try it. It would indeed require stompgrip or a similar product as my tank also doesn't have a sticking tank edge.

 

hubbard_28, I'm at the back of the seat, as far as I can tell, but I can check it out again next time. In this regard, the CBR's seat is shorter than my bike's (GSXR1000 2K4), so the freedom to move backwards is somewhat limited.

 

So if I try to summarize the tips so far, here they are:

 

- Move further back on the seat, if possible

- Hang off more

- Lower upper body and head, towards the mirror

- Try the calf raise to see if it makes a difference

- Go faster, lower ;)

 

Right?

 

Thanks again for the help so far, your feedback is valuable for me. Don't stop with the tips if you have more ;)

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