Leftlaner Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I've read TWIST 1&2 twice now, but there is one little thing that I just don't quite understand. Maybe it's because English isn't my first language, or maybe I'm just stupid..? When the rear tyre starts slipping in a corner, and it wants to "come around", you're supposed to maintain a steady throttle (chopping the throttle is likely to result in a highside and wacking the gas full on is likely to bring the rear all the way around). I think I get the part about throttle. But Keith also says that whilst maintaining a smooth and steady throttle, one should also "STAND THE BIKE UP". Does that mean that one should steer the front wheel slightly inwards, or does "standing the bike up" in this context have to do with body position? Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccready Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I've read TWIST 1&2 twice now, but there is one little thing that I just don't quite understand. Maybe it's because English isn't my first language, or maybe I'm just stupid..? When the rear tyre starts slipping in a corner, and it wants to "come around", you're supposed to maintain a steady throttle (chopping the throttle is likely to result in a highside and wacking the gas full on is likely to bring the rear all the way around). I think I get the part about throttle. But Keith also says that whilst maintaining a smooth and steady throttle, one should also "STAND THE BIKE UP". Does that mean that one should steer the front wheel slightly inwards, or does "standing the bike up" in this context have to do with body position? Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Thanks Leftlaner, What I think Keith is referring to is getting the bike off the rear tire's sidewall and up onto the center portion of the tread pattern . This action will stabilize the bike during wheel spin, and allow for gradual traction hook-up. It seems to me the sooner you can get the bike "stood up" the more control you'll have, all while achieving a stronger drive out of the corner. my opinion, john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccready Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Leftlaner, Considering the possible language barrier, here's another example that I think will clarify "Stand the bike up". When the bike is parked on it's sidestand, it's leaning over . A common phrase in America, is to say "get the bike off it's kickstand, and stand it up". So by doing this, you remove any lean angle. I hope this helps. john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Standing the bike up requires a steering input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftlaner Posted March 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Standing the bike up means reducing lean angle, fair enough. The question is HOW, and I think Jaybird just confirmed what I suspected. You have to steer inwards to reduce lean angle, that makes sense. But what about BP. Assuming you're hanging off, would the best thing be to maintain the BP (to avoid upsetting the bike), or gradually moving the upper body more towards a non hanging off BP?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Standing the bike up means reducing lean angle, fair enough. The question is HOW, and I think Jaybird just confirmed what I suspected. You have to steer inwards to reduce lean angle, that makes sense. But what about BP. Assuming you're hanging off, would the best thing be to maintain the BP (to avoid upsetting the bike), or gradually moving the upper body more towards a non hanging off BP?? Unplanned slides happen so fast you don't have time to scoot your butt over. Controlled slides mean the rider isn't introducing unwanted chassis balance changes by moving around. He's doing all the work with the right hand and steering (and maybe a little lower body muscle). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 But what about BP. Assuming you're hanging off, would the best thing be to maintain the BP (to avoid upsetting the bike), or gradually moving the upper body more towards a non hanging off BP?? I would think that If you experience an unexpected slide you still might need to finish the corner, especially if the rear did not step out enough to line the bike up perfectly for the next section of track. Continuing to hang off would as you say not upset the bike and would allow you to finish the turn more easily. In the Pick Up drill we learn to push the bike up while still hanging off so your thinking is consistent to what I've been taught. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccready Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 But what about BP. Assuming you're hanging off, would the best thing be to maintain the BP (to avoid upsetting the bike), or gradually moving the upper body more towards a non hanging off BP?? I would think that If you experience an unexpected slide you still might need to finish the corner, especially if the rear did not step out enough to line the bike up perfectly for the next section of track. Continuing to hang off would as you say not upset the bike and would allow you to finish the turn more easily. In the Pick Up drill we learn to push the bike up while still hanging off so your thinking is consistent to what I've been taught. Kevin Kevin, Thanks for your elaboration. I'm new to this sight and already I've learned so much more about the actual "art" of cornering than I ever would have expected. You guys at CSS, and your members have my vote. It's great to have found a sight with so much specific "nuts-and-bolts' of cornering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftlaner Posted March 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 But what about BP. Assuming you're hanging off, would the best thing be to maintain the BP (to avoid upsetting the bike), or gradually moving the upper body more towards a non hanging off BP?? I would think that If you experience an unexpected slide you still might need to finish the corner, especially if the rear did not step out enough to line the bike up perfectly for the next section of track. Continuing to hang off would as you say not upset the bike and would allow you to finish the turn more easily. In the Pick Up drill we learn to push the bike up while still hanging off so your thinking is consistent to what I've been taught. Kevin Do you recall if the pick up drill is level 1, 2 or 3?? I'm taking the two first levels in a few weeks, it's going to be sooo much fun, I can hardly wait..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Do you recall if the pick up drill is level 1, 2 or 3?? I'm taking the two first levels in a few weeks, it's going to be sooo much fun, I can hardly wait..! LL; I just redid Level I last November and then in a span of two weeks redid Levels II - IV so the drills are all fresh in my mind. It is the last drill of Level II IIRC. An aspect of the School's training that I really appreciate is that typically the last drill of a level is really the first drill of the following level so you can get a glimpse of where your training is going to take you...it's an exciting journey IMHO. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Do you recall if the pick up drill is level 1, 2 or 3?? I'm taking the two first levels in a few weeks, it's going to be sooo much fun, I can hardly wait..! LL; I just redid Level I last November and then in a span of two weeks redid Levels II - IV so the drills are all fresh in my mind. It is the last drill of Level II IIRC. An aspect of the School's training that I really appreciate is that typically the last drill of a level is really the first drill of the following level so you can get a glimpse of where your training is going to take you...it's an exciting journey IMHO. Kevin Quite right Kevin, Pick Up drill is last thing L-2 (and does lead into L-3). CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'm bumping this thread back to the top rather than starting a new one This is probably a classic case of me over thinking things but I have been reading my copy of performance riding techniques by Andy Ibbot and it says that during a slide the bike is automatically self correcting by being steered into the slide, this is mentioned in the twist books too and I understand that completely, the question I have is why does the pick up drill not contradict this self correcting as you are effectively straightening the bike during a slide? Also why is it thought best that during a slide we should hold the throttle in position effectively using it as a rev limiter to come out of the slide rather than just training our selfs to continue rolling on the throttle and using the pickup drill at the same time? Which of these 2 techniques would give the best result? Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'm bumping this thread back to the top rather than starting a new one This is probably a classic case of me over thinking things but I have been reading my copy of performance riding techniques by Andy Ibbot and it says that during a slide the bike is automatically self correcting by being steered into the slide, this is mentioned in the twist books too and I understand that completely, the question I have is why does the pick up drill not contradict this self correcting as you are effectively straightening the bike during a slide? Also why is it thought best that during a slide we should hold the throttle in position effectively using it as a rev limiter to come out of the slide rather than just training our selfs to continue rolling on the throttle and using the pickup drill at the same time? Which of these 2 techniques would give the best result? Bobby Ok Bobby, some questions for you, whilst you're in thinking mode then. What is the pick up drill for? Could you react quickly enough with pick up drill to counteract a slide? If you think about what the rear tyre is already doing when it starts to slide, what would be the consequence of either rolling on more throttle, or alternatively chopping the throttle? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftlaner Posted August 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Well, you are right about the bike being inheratly stabile and that it will self correct on most occasions. Which is one of the main reasons why it's so important to be "loose" on the bars, rather than clamping on to them. And smaller rear wheel slipping (like when you hit a patch of dirt/gravel on the road) will also be self corrected as long as you let the bike do it's thang.. The pick-up drill has to do with improving the exit speed in certain corners (not all corners benefit from this technique). The idea is that standing the bike up slightly before the corner is finished allows you to get on the throttle sooner (b/c of the larger tyre footprint). The technique (the way I understand it) is basically to pull on the inside bar, letting ONLY THE BIKE (not your torso) stand more up. Standing (only) the bike up takes less time and effort compared to standing the bike+rider up. Once the bike is stabile, heading in the right direction (at a ridiculous speed), that's when you move your bum and torso back into "standard riding position". Again, this is just how I interpreted the pick-up drill, I can't give any guarantees that this is exactely what Keith meant..! I'm bumping this thread back to the top rather than starting a new one This is probably a classic case of me over thinking things but I have been reading my copy of performance riding techniques by Andy Ibbot and it says that during a slide the bike is automatically self correcting by being steered into the slide, this is mentioned in the twist books too and I understand that completely, the question I have is why does the pick up drill not contradict this self correcting as you are effectively straightening the bike during a slide? Also why is it thought best that during a slide we should hold the throttle in position effectively using it as a rev limiter to come out of the slide rather than just training our selfs to continue rolling on the throttle and using the pickup drill at the same time? Which of these 2 techniques would give the best result? Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'm bumping this thread back to the top rather than starting a new one This is probably a classic case of me over thinking things but I have been reading my copy of performance riding techniques by Andy Ibbot and it says that during a slide the bike is automatically self correcting by being steered into the slide, this is mentioned in the twist books too and I understand that completely, the question I have is why does the pick up drill not contradict this self correcting as you are effectively straightening the bike during a slide? Also why is it thought best that during a slide we should hold the throttle in position effectively using it as a rev limiter to come out of the slide rather than just training our selfs to continue rolling on the throttle and using the pickup drill at the same time? Which of these 2 techniques would give the best result? Bobby Ok Bobby, some questions for you, whilst you're in thinking mode then. What is the pick up drill for? Could you react quickly enough with pick up drill to counteract a slide? If you think about what the rear tyre is already doing when it starts to slide, what would be the consequence of either rolling on more throttle, or alternatively chopping the throttle? Bullet Ok, I believe the pickup drill is for getting a bit more power down at the exit, preferably enough that the rear squirms or spins just a bit as your picking it up! When I think what the rear tyre is doing when it starts to slide, I think coming around, I know that at this point chopping the throttle is not an option as it will result in a highside, I understand that by maintaining a constant throttle will act like a rev limiter and the tyre will regain traction smoothly, then I guess you continue the roll on! Its the last option I wonder about, keep rolling the throttle on (TC rule #1)! Ok so I imagine that the rear tyre will keep coming around and your lean angle will increase until your in a lowside situation, even if it does regain traction before lowsiding then your bike will most likely be pointing towards the gravel at the inside of the turn unless you have used the pickup drill a bit to keep the bike headed in its desired direction, I'm not sure if you could react quickly enough with the pick up drill to counteract a slide, possibly not unless you started the slide intentionally! Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'm bumping this thread back to the top rather than starting a new one This is probably a classic case of me over thinking things but I have been reading my copy of performance riding techniques by Andy Ibbot and it says that during a slide the bike is automatically self correcting by being steered into the slide, this is mentioned in the twist books too and I understand that completely, the question I have is why does the pick up drill not contradict this self correcting as you are effectively straightening the bike during a slide? Also why is it thought best that during a slide we should hold the throttle in position effectively using it as a rev limiter to come out of the slide rather than just training our selfs to continue rolling on the throttle and using the pickup drill at the same time? Which of these 2 techniques would give the best result? Bobby Ok Bobby, some questions for you, whilst you're in thinking mode then. What is the pick up drill for? Could you react quickly enough with pick up drill to counteract a slide? If you think about what the rear tyre is already doing when it starts to slide, what would be the consequence of either rolling on more throttle, or alternatively chopping the throttle? Bullet Ok, I believe the pickup drill is for getting a bit more power down at the exit, preferably enough that the rear squirms or spins just a bit as your picking it up! When I think what the rear tyre is doing when it starts to slide, I think coming around, I know that at this point chopping the throttle is not an option as it will result in a highside, I understand that by maintaining a constant throttle will act like a rev limiter and the tyre will regain traction smoothly, then I guess you continue the roll on! Its the last option I wonder about, keep rolling the throttle on (TC rule #1)! Ok so I imagine that the rear tyre will keep coming around and your lean angle will increase until your in a lowside situation, even if it does regain traction before lowsiding then your bike will most likely be pointing towards the gravel at the inside of the turn unless you have used the pickup drill a bit to keep the bike headed in its desired direction, I'm not sure if you could react quickly enough with the pick up drill to counteract a slide, possibly not unless you started the slide intentionally! Bobby You see, you did know after all. Good answer. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'm bumping this thread back to the top rather than starting a new one This is probably a classic case of me over thinking things but I have been reading my copy of performance riding techniques by Andy Ibbot and it says that during a slide the bike is automatically self correcting by being steered into the slide, this is mentioned in the twist books too and I understand that completely, the question I have is why does the pick up drill not contradict this self correcting as you are effectively straightening the bike during a slide? Also why is it thought best that during a slide we should hold the throttle in position effectively using it as a rev limiter to come out of the slide rather than just training our selfs to continue rolling on the throttle and using the pickup drill at the same time? Which of these 2 techniques would give the best result? Bobby Ok Bobby, some questions for you, whilst you're in thinking mode then. What is the pick up drill for? Could you react quickly enough with pick up drill to counteract a slide? If you think about what the rear tyre is already doing when it starts to slide, what would be the consequence of either rolling on more throttle, or alternatively chopping the throttle? Bullet Ok, I believe the pickup drill is for getting a bit more power down at the exit, preferably enough that the rear squirms or spins just a bit as your picking it up! When I think what the rear tyre is doing when it starts to slide, I think coming around, I know that at this point chopping the throttle is not an option as it will result in a highside, I understand that by maintaining a constant throttle will act like a rev limiter and the tyre will regain traction smoothly, then I guess you continue the roll on! Its the last option I wonder about, keep rolling the throttle on (TC rule #1)! Ok so I imagine that the rear tyre will keep coming around and your lean angle will increase until your in a lowside situation, even if it does regain traction before lowsiding then your bike will most likely be pointing towards the gravel at the inside of the turn unless you have used the pickup drill a bit to keep the bike headed in its desired direction, I'm not sure if you could react quickly enough with the pick up drill to counteract a slide, possibly not unless you started the slide intentionally! Bobby You see, you did know after all. Good answer. Bullet Ask Colin Edwards about this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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