Understeer

[GregGorman]

OK, the question is; Does counter-steering work at any speed?

 

That video and many others like it show that it does. All we're talking about is looking for the counter steer motion, the turn of the front tire in the opposite direction just prior to the bike leaning. That weave is a counter-steer and there's a semi-valid reason for why it's so big that has to do with cop bike training and testing, not important here really.

 

Here's a simple test of counter-steering at slow speed. Push your bike in a straight line, keep it vertical, and turn the bars to the left, which way does it go? I suggest having a friend on the right side to catch it if goes too far out of balance.

[aardvark1614]

In a way you are touching on the issue that at very low speed counter steering tips a bike in and over. In a very tight up hill hairpin you cannot put your foot down as the ground drops away ( ie on a right steep up hill bend on a tall bike the ground is so far below the foot that it is difficult/impossible to hold the weight of the bike so you have to gun it. On level ground at low speed after counter steer YOU need to point the bars in the desired direction of travel - like on the video?

[Bullet]

In a way you are touching on the issue that at very low speed counter steering tips a bike in and over. In a very tight up hill hairpin you cannot put your foot down as the ground drops away ( ie on a right steep up hill bend on a tall bike the ground is so far below the foot that it is difficult/impossible to hold the weight of the bike so you have to gun it. On level ground at low speed after counter steer YOU need to point the bars in the desired direction of travel - like on the video?

 

Did you do the steering drill when you did your day at the school round?

 

Bullet

[Jaybird180]

OK, the question is; Does counter-steering work at any speed?

 

Agreed that this is a good question and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is unsure of low-speed countersteering. I recall reading something Keith wrote about stability speed, etc but I don't have my books (in storage-arghhhhghh).

 

What am I missing here? Toss me a bone man.

[GregGorman]

OK, the question is; Does counter-steering work at any speed?

 

Agreed that this is a good question and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is unsure of low-speed countersteering. I recall reading something Keith wrote about stability speed, etc but I don't have my books (in storage-arghhhhghh).

 

What am I missing here? Toss me a bone man.

 

Well, I don't have a bone to toss you. I think it's down to your own observation now. You can try it with 1/10th scale model motorcycles and feel how the motorcycle moves in your fingers, you can try it on your bicycle, you can try it on your motorcycle. Does anything happen prior to the front wheel turning in the direction of the turn?

 

You could also get the Twist II DVD, it shows counter-steering in detail there.

[Cobie Fair]

Here is one thing to think about: if you are going walking pace on a bicycle, and it starts to fall to the right. What do you do? Steer to the right, correct? Now, didn't the rider just push the LEFT bar forward, to make the bike change its direction?

 

Counter steering is just the inititial action in the process, it initiates the steering.

 

CF

[Fajita Dave]

OK, the question is; Does counter-steering work at any speed?

 

Agreed that this is a good question and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is unsure of low-speed countersteering. I recall reading something Keith wrote about stability speed, etc but I don't have my books (in storage-arghhhhghh).

 

What am I missing here? Toss me a bone man.

 

Well, I don't have a bone to toss you. I think it's down to your own observation now. You can try it with 1/10th scale model motorcycles and feel how the motorcycle moves in your fingers, you can try it on your bicycle, you can try it on your motorcycle. Does anything happen prior to the front wheel turning in the direction of the turn?

 

You could also get the Twist II DVD, it shows counter-steering in detail there.

 

Its funny how you mentioned the model motorcycle. I have an 1/8th scale RC motorcycle that is built with mostly the same geometry as a full size sportbike (with small adjustments to the triple clams). Sense the rider weight doesn't move around or push the bike in any way all lean angle/cornering adjustments need to be made by counter-steering alone. Once I reach the desired lean angle I have to let go of the steering wheel and it maintains whatever lean angle that I set it to last with no steering inputs what so ever. If I want it to turn sharper then I simply have to counter-steer to make it lean lower and again release the steering input when the lean angle is reached.

 

Its very fun to experiment with this thing because there is no rider inputs or any rider "feel" to get in the way of how the motorcycle works. Almost like a small version of the No BS bike . I can drive this motorcycle anywhere from 3mph to 40mph and counter-steering works the same exact way. There are no variables that a rider can create to get in the way of how it works.

[harnois]

Hi Guys

 

I have completed Level 1,2 and 3 on a 08 Fireblade. Very comfortable with the teaching phylosophy and trying to implement with increasing success but have run into a problem as follows.

 

On a recent trip thru' the Riff and Atlas Mountains in Morroco I found my bike understeering in the tight corners, ie it wanted to steer wide towards the outside of the bend. I was on a BMW 1200 GS ( 6 years familiarity ) with my wife and heavy luggage including a heavy top box! I use road tyre - currently Dunlop Roadsmarts.

 

The bike handles well and tips in on countersteer progressively but on tight corners I would open the throttle, after countersteer, and it would run wide so I PUSHED the bars in a conventional way to get the bike on line ie opposite to countersteer.

 

Maybe it is a SR kicking in but increasing countersteer on slow corners, remember the bike is loaded and relatively tall, seemed to make the bike ' fall ' in as speed was low. I wanted to get on the throttle early to stop the bike falling in.

 

Two questions

 

1. When a bike has changed direction by countersteering and the throttle is progressively opened does the front tyre then follow the radius or stay countersteered?

 

2. How can I change my approach on the 1200GS?

 

Regards

 

roundincircles

 

I rode a KLR650 (also a tall heavy bike) with luggage and a passenger from Tennessee to Oregon on unpaved roads (trans america trail - transamtrail.com) with knobby-ish tires. So I can relate a lot to some of the sensations you describe. I have never been so happy to have such a solid understanding of countersteering. To add to the effects of the tall heavy bike and rearward weight bias, I also had to contend sometimes with deep sand, rocks, ditches, mud, ruts, marble-like gravel, off-camber trails, and steep switchbacks. And due to the weight easily overwhelming the suspension on rough trails, there was a lot of very slow speed riding where a lot of manual steering and balancing is involved.

 

I think you are right that at very low speeds, you have to countersteer to make it lean then you have to manually turn the handlebar in the direction of the turn rather than wait for it to naturally go there.

 

I also think you are right that in some circumstances the bike has a tendency to continually lean lower and lower even with no pressure on the bars, and you may have to apply some forward pressure on the outside bar to hold the lean.

 

My suggestion is, and what worked for me:

 

For slow speed manuevering, regardless of all the wonky sensations and whatever you are doing with the throttle, turn the handlebars however you need to turn them to make the bike balance and go where you need it to go. Do what you gotta do and don't try to analyze it terms of some standard rule.

 

At more normal speeds where you do not have to manually balance, stay loose on the bars (the standard recommendation) to take advantage of the bikes inherent self-correcting steering. And if on loose surface, tune out all the wish washy stuff and just focus on keeping the bike traveling in the right direction by countersteering when necessary.

 

You might also check advrider.com, a different forum that is all about the adventure riding, lots of guys on there doing crazy things on heavy bikes with luggage.

[Jaybird180]

OK, the question is; Does counter-steering work at any speed?

 

Agreed that this is a good question and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is unsure of low-speed countersteering. I recall reading something Keith wrote about stability speed, etc but I don't have my books (in storage-arghhhhghh).

 

What am I missing here? Toss me a bone man.

 

Well, I don't have a bone to toss you. I think it's down to your own observation now. You can try it with 1/10th scale model motorcycles and feel how the motorcycle moves in your fingers, you can try it on your bicycle, you can try it on your motorcycle. Does anything happen prior to the front wheel turning in the direction of the turn?

 

You could also get the Twist II DVD, it shows counter-steering in detail there.

 

Its funny how you mentioned the model motorcycle. I have an 1/8th scale RC motorcycle that is built with mostly the same geometry as a full size sportbike (with small adjustments to the triple clams). Sense the rider weight doesn't move around or push the bike in any way all lean angle/cornering adjustments need to be made by counter-steering alone. Once I reach the desired lean angle I have to let go of the steering wheel and it maintains whatever lean angle that I set it to last with no steering inputs what so ever. If I want it to turn sharper then I simply have to counter-steer to make it lean lower and again release the steering input when the lean angle is reached.

 

Its very fun to experiment with this thing because there is no rider inputs or any rider "feel" to get in the way of how the motorcycle works. Almost like a small version of the No BS bike . I can drive this motorcycle anywhere from 3mph to 40mph and counter-steering works the same exact way. There are no variables that a rider can create to get in the way of how it works.

 

 

Fajita Dave's experiment is enough for me to consider the myth "busted".

[Fajita Dave]

OK, the question is; Does counter-steering work at any speed?

 

Agreed that this is a good question and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is unsure of low-speed countersteering. I recall reading something Keith wrote about stability speed, etc but I don't have my books (in storage-arghhhhghh).

 

What am I missing here? Toss me a bone man.

 

Well, I don't have a bone to toss you. I think it's down to your own observation now. You can try it with 1/10th scale model motorcycles and feel how the motorcycle moves in your fingers, you can try it on your bicycle, you can try it on your motorcycle. Does anything happen prior to the front wheel turning in the direction of the turn?

 

You could also get the Twist II DVD, it shows counter-steering in detail there.

 

Its funny how you mentioned the model motorcycle. I have an 1/8th scale RC motorcycle that is built with mostly the same geometry as a full size sportbike (with small adjustments to the triple clams). Sense the rider weight doesn't move around or push the bike in any way all lean angle/cornering adjustments need to be made by counter-steering alone. Once I reach the desired lean angle I have to let go of the steering wheel and it maintains whatever lean angle that I set it to last with no steering inputs what so ever. If I want it to turn sharper then I simply have to counter-steer to make it lean lower and again release the steering input when the lean angle is reached.

 

Its very fun to experiment with this thing because there is no rider inputs or any rider "feel" to get in the way of how the motorcycle works. Almost like a small version of the No BS bike . I can drive this motorcycle anywhere from 3mph to 40mph and counter-steering works the same exact way. There are no variables that a rider can create to get in the way of how it works.

 

 

Fajita Dave's experiment is enough for me to consider the myth "busted".

 

Haha well it proves the basics anyway. I think the weight placement of cargo and a passenger in the OPs case made things a bit awkward at low speeds. Harnois explained how the bike reacts to that pretty well though.

[aardvark1614]

Hi Guys

 

I have completed Level 1,2 and 3 on a 08 Fireblade. Very comfortable with the teaching phylosophy and trying to implement with increasing success but have run into a problem as follows.

 

On a recent trip thru' the Riff and Atlas Mountains in Morroco I found my bike understeering in the tight corners, ie it wanted to steer wide towards the outside of the bend. I was on a BMW 1200 GS ( 6 years familiarity ) with my wife and heavy luggage including a heavy top box! I use road tyre - currently Dunlop Roadsmarts.

 

The bike handles well and tips in on countersteer progressively but on tight corners I would open the throttle, after countersteer, and it would run wide so I PUSHED the bars in a conventional way to get the bike on line ie opposite to countersteer.

 

Maybe it is a SR kicking in but increasing countersteer on slow corners, remember the bike is loaded and relatively tall, seemed to make the bike ' fall ' in as speed was low. I wanted to get on the throttle early to stop the bike falling in.

 

Two questions

 

1. When a bike has changed direction by countersteering and the throttle is progressively opened does the front tyre then follow the radius or stay countersteered?

 

2. How can I change my approach on the 1200GS?

 

Regards

 

roundincircles

 

I rode a KLR650 (also a tall heavy bike) with luggage and a passenger from Tennessee to Oregon on unpaved roads (trans america trail - transamtrail.com) with knobby-ish tires. So I can relate a lot to some of the sensations you describe. I have never been so happy to have such a solid understanding of countersteering. To add to the effects of the tall heavy bike and rearward weight bias, I also had to contend sometimes with deep sand, rocks, ditches, mud, ruts, marble-like gravel, off-camber trails, and steep switchbacks. And due to the weight easily overwhelming the suspension on rough trails, there was a lot of very slow speed riding where a lot of manual steering and balancing is involved.

 

I think you are right that at very low speeds, you have to countersteer to make it lean then you have to manually turn the handlebar in the direction of the turn rather than wait for it to naturally go there.

 

I also think you are right that in some circumstances the bike has a tendency to continually lean lower and lower even with no pressure on the bars, and you may have to apply some forward pressure on the outside bar to hold the lean.

 

My suggestion is, and what worked for me:

 

For slow speed manuevering, regardless of all the wonky sensations and whatever you are doing with the throttle, turn the handlebars however you need to turn them to make the bike balance and go where you need it to go. Do what you gotta do and don't try to analyze it terms of some standard rule.

 

At more normal speeds where you do not have to manually balance, stay loose on the bars (the standard recommendation) to take advantage of the bikes inherent self-correcting steering. And if on loose surface, tune out all the wish washy stuff and just focus on keeping the bike traveling in the right direction by countersteering when necessary.

 

You might also check advrider.com, a different forum that is all about the adventure riding, lots of guys on there doing crazy things on heavy bikes with luggage.

 

 

Thanks for your reply. It is good to hear from somebody that's 'been there'. Your comments are very helpful. I think some problems occur because my default bike is a 08 Fireblade that is light and agile with the weight centralised and low so when I get on the heavy and high BMW I fail to adjust quickly - the BMW is a great handling bike though.