Understeer

[aardvark1614]

Hi Guys

 

I have completed Level 1,2 and 3 on a 08 Fireblade. Very comfortable with the teaching phylosophy and trying to implement with increasing success but have run into a problem as follows.

 

On a recent trip thru' the Riff and Atlas Mountains in Morroco I found my bike understeering in the tight corners, ie it wanted to steer wide towards the outside of the bend. I was on a BMW 1200 GS ( 6 years familiarity ) with my wife and heavy luggage including a heavy top box! I use road tyre - currently Dunlop Roadsmarts.

 

The bike handles well and tips in on countersteer progressively but on tight corners I would open the throttle, after countersteer, and it would run wide so I PUSHED the bars in a conventional way to get the bike on line ie opposite to countersteer.

 

Maybe it is a SR kicking in but increasing countersteer on slow corners, remember the bike is loaded and relatively tall, seemed to make the bike ' fall ' in as speed was low. I wanted to get on the throttle early to stop the bike falling in.

 

Two questions

 

1. When a bike has changed direction by countersteering and the throttle is progressively opened does the front tyre then follow the radius or stay countersteered?

 

2. How can I change my approach on the 1200GS?

 

Regards

 

roundincircles

[Bullet]

Hi Guys

 

I have completed Level 1,2 and 3 on a 08 Fireblade. Very comfortable with the teaching phylosophy and trying to implement with increasing success but have run into a problem as follows.

 

On a recent trip thru' the Riff and Atlas Mountains in Morroco I found my bike understeering in the tight corners, ie it wanted to steer wide towards the outside of the bend. I was on a BMW 1200 GS ( 6 years familiarity ) with my wife and heavy luggage including a heavy top box! I use road tyre - currently Dunlop Roadsmarts.

 

The bike handles well and tips in on countersteer progressively but on tight corners I would open the throttle, after countersteer, and it would run wide so I PUSHED the bars in a conventional way to get the bike on line ie opposite to countersteer.

 

Maybe it is a SR kicking in but increasing countersteer on slow corners, remember the bike is loaded and relatively tall, seemed to make the bike ' fall ' in as speed was low. I wanted to get on the throttle early to stop the bike falling in.

 

Two questions

 

1. When a bike has changed direction by countersteering and the throttle is progressively opened does the front tyre then follow the radius or stay countersteered?

 

2. How can I change my approach on the 1200GS?

 

Regards

 

roundincircles

 

Hi mate,

 

I be that's not been a nice feeling, the bike running wide?

 

I have a question for you first, before I get to yours. Why would you countersteer the bike, then NON countersteer the bike when you feel it's starting to run wide? Do you believe that you only countersteer initally, or does Countersteering carry for steering a bike ALL of the time?

 

To answer your questions, when you countersteer the bike, this makes the bike tip into the turn, once the bikes leaned over, the bike steering naturally tips into the turn itself. Proper throttle control application would actually mean the bike would contine to go around the corner without ANY input from you on the bars. If you would like to see both of these aspects in real life, if you get the new TW2 DVD it's beautifully filmed to show all of these things in great clarity.

 

Now, understanding this point, and thinking about what you've been doing here, what do you think is causing this feeling? Sure the bike's heavy, it's going to feel like it tips in more quickly, it may also feel weird odd if you have lots of weight over the rear and haven't compensated for this with suspension tweaks, as it'll make the forks longer and the steering feel slower, (a bit like riding a harley or something in comparison).

 

Let me know your thoguhts mate,

 

Bullet

[khp]

On a recent trip thru' the Riff and Atlas Mountains in Morroco I found my bike understeering in the tight corners, ie it wanted to steer wide towards the outside of the bend. I was on a BMW 1200 GS ( 6 years familiarity ) with my wife and heavy luggage including a heavy top box! I use road tyre - currently Dunlop Roadsmarts.

 

The bike handles well and tips in on countersteer progressively but on tight corners I would open the throttle, after countersteer, and it would run wide so I PUSHED the bars in a conventional way to get the bike on line ie opposite to countersteer.

 

Maybe it is a SR kicking in but increasing countersteer on slow corners, remember the bike is loaded and relatively tall, seemed to make the bike ' fall ' in as speed was low. I wanted to get on the throttle early to stop the bike falling in.

 

Two questions

 

1. When a bike has changed direction by countersteering and the throttle is progressively opened does the front tyre then follow the radius or stay countersteered?

 

2. How can I change my approach on the 1200GS?

Hi,

 

The BMW's work a bit different WRT suspension than my old XT600Z, but the relatively long and plush suspension of any offroad type bike can make the bike change steering angle quite a bit (it becomes less steep) which will lead it to understeer -this may be what you are experiencing in the slow corners.

 

Try finding a relatively long and soft turn on a road and try play with the throttle (close/open it repeatedly) to get a sense of how it affects the suspension and the steering geometry on the GS while in the turn. Doing this would be verging on dangerous on my old XT600Z (that's how I originally learned to stay on the gas in a turn).

[aardvark1614]

Hi Guys

 

I have completed Level 1,2 and 3 on a 08 Fireblade. Very comfortable with the teaching phylosophy and trying to implement with increasing success but have run into a problem as follows.

 

On a recent trip thru' the Riff and Atlas Mountains in Morroco I found my bike understeering in the tight corners, ie it wanted to steer wide towards the outside of the bend. I was on a BMW 1200 GS ( 6 years familiarity ) with my wife and heavy luggage including a heavy top box! I use road tyre - currently Dunlop Roadsmarts.

 

The bike handles well and tips in on countersteer progressively but on tight corners I would open the throttle, after countersteer, and it would run wide so I PUSHED the bars in a conventional way to get the bike on line ie opposite to countersteer.

 

Maybe it is a SR kicking in but increasing countersteer on slow corners, remember the bike is loaded and relatively tall, seemed to make the bike ' fall ' in as speed was low. I wanted to get on the throttle early to stop the bike falling in.

 

Two questions

 

1. When a bike has changed direction by countersteering and the throttle is progressively opened does the front tyre then follow the radius or stay countersteered?

 

2. How can I change my approach on the 1200GS?

 

Regards

 

roundincircles

 

Hi mate,

 

I be that's not been a nice feeling, the bike running wide?

 

I have a question for you first, before I get to yours. Why would you countersteer the bike, then NON countersteer the bike when you feel it's starting to run wide? Do you believe that you only countersteer initally, or does Countersteering carry for steering a bike ALL of the time?

 

To answer your questions, when you countersteer the bike, this makes the bike tip into the turn, once the bikes leaned over, the bike steering naturally tips into the turn itself. Proper throttle control application would actually mean the bike would contine to go around the corner without ANY input from you on the bars. If you would like to see both of these aspects in real life, if you get the new TW2 DVD it's beautifully filmed to show all of these things in great clarity.

 

Now, understanding this point, and thinking about what you've been doing here, what do you think is causing this feeling? Sure the bike's heavy, it's going to feel like it tips in more quickly, it may also feel weird odd if you have lots of weight over the rear and haven't compensated for this with suspension tweaks, as it'll make the forks longer and the steering feel slower, (a bit like riding a harley or something in comparison).

 

Let me know your thoguhts mate,

 

Bullet

 

Hi Bullet

 

I may be thinking too much about this, but some points about the 1200 GS

 

1. It does not have forks as it has Telelever front suspension with sliders controlling the wheel ( no springs or hydraulics in the slider ) thus the wheelbase remains constant unlike a conventional bike which reduces wheelbase as the forks compress.

 

2. It has electronic suspension adjustment so I had it set on pillion with luggage but I think the rear shock is soft anyway

 

My guess is if I have countersteered at the correct point, and by enough, plus opened the throttle at the corect rate then the rear wheel will steer the bike around the corner. But, again, my guess is that the combination of low speed and tightish corner reduces the gyroscopic impact of the wheels, fires up a SR, DELAYING my trottle imput.

 

Am I close?

 

Does a bike remain countersteered in the turn?

[aardvark1614]

Hi Guys

 

I have completed Level 1,2 and 3 on a 08 Fireblade. Very comfortable with the teaching phylosophy and trying to implement with increasing success but have run into a problem as follows.

 

On a recent trip thru' the Riff and Atlas Mountains in Morroco I found my bike understeering in the tight corners, ie it wanted to steer wide towards the outside of the bend. I was on a BMW 1200 GS ( 6 years familiarity ) with my wife and heavy luggage including a heavy top box! I use road tyre - currently Dunlop Roadsmarts.

 

The bike handles well and tips in on countersteer progressively but on tight corners I would open the throttle, after countersteer, and it would run wide so I PUSHED the bars in a conventional way to get the bike on line ie opposite to countersteer.

 

Maybe it is a SR kicking in but increasing countersteer on slow corners, remember the bike is loaded and relatively tall, seemed to make the bike ' fall ' in as speed was low. I wanted to get on the throttle early to stop the bike falling in.

 

Two questions

 

1. When a bike has changed direction by countersteering and the throttle is progressively opened does the front tyre then follow the radius or stay countersteered?

 

2. How can I change my approach on the 1200GS?

 

Regards

 

roundincircles

 

Hi mate,

 

I be that's not been a nice feeling, the bike running wide?

 

I have a question for you first, before I get to yours. Why would you countersteer the bike, then NON countersteer the bike when you feel it's starting to run wide? Do you believe that you only countersteer initally, or does Countersteering carry for steering a bike ALL of the time?

 

To answer your questions, when you countersteer the bike, this makes the bike tip into the turn, once the bikes leaned over, the bike steering naturally tips into the turn itself. Proper throttle control application would actually mean the bike would contine to go around the corner without ANY input from you on the bars. If you would like to see both of these aspects in real life, if you get the new TW2 DVD it's beautifully filmed to show all of these things in great clarity.

 

Now, understanding this point, and thinking about what you've been doing here, what do you think is causing this feeling? Sure the bike's heavy, it's going to feel like it tips in more quickly, it may also feel weird odd if you have lots of weight over the rear and haven't compensated for this with suspension tweaks, as it'll make the forks longer and the steering feel slower, (a bit like riding a harley or something in comparison).

 

Let me know your thoguhts mate,

 

Bullet

 

Hi Bullet

 

I may be thinking too much about this, but some points about the 1200 GS

 

1. It does not have forks as it has Telelever front suspension with sliders controlling the wheel ( no springs or hydraulics in the slider ) thus the wheelbase remains constant unlike a conventional bike which reduces wheelbase as the forks compress.

 

2. It has electronic suspension adjustment so I had it set on pillion with luggage but I think the rear shock is soft anyway

 

My guess is if I have countersteered at the correct point, and by enough, plus opened the throttle at the correct rate then the rear wheel will steer the bike around the corner. But, again, my guess is that the combination of low speed and tightish corner reduces the gyroscopic impact of the wheels, fires up a SR, DELAYING my trottle imput.

 

Am I close?

 

Does a bike remain countersteered in the turn?

[aardvark1614]

Hi Guys

 

I have completed Level 1,2 and 3 on a 08 Fireblade. Very comfortable with the teaching phylosophy and trying to implement with increasing success but have run into a problem as follows.

 

On a recent trip thru' the Riff and Atlas Mountains in Morroco I found my bike understeering in the tight corners, ie it wanted to steer wide towards the outside of the bend. I was on a BMW 1200 GS ( 6 years familiarity ) with my wife and heavy luggage including a heavy top box! I use road tyre - currently Dunlop Roadsmarts.

 

The bike handles well and tips in on countersteer progressively but on tight corners I would open the throttle, after countersteer, and it would run wide so I PUSHED the bars in a conventional way to get the bike on line ie opposite to countersteer.

 

Maybe it is a SR kicking in but increasing countersteer on slow corners, remember the bike is loaded and relatively tall, seemed to make the bike ' fall ' in as speed was low. I wanted to get on the throttle early to stop the bike falling in.

 

Two questions

 

1. When a bike has changed direction by countersteering and the throttle is progressively opened does the front tyre then follow the radius or stay countersteered?

 

2. How can I change my approach on the 1200GS?

 

Regards

 

roundincircles

 

Hi mate,

 

I be that's not been a nice feeling, the bike running wide?

 

I have a question for you first, before I get to yours. Why would you countersteer the bike, then NON countersteer the bike when you feel it's starting to run wide? Do you believe that you only countersteer initally, or does Countersteering carry for steering a bike ALL of the time?

 

To answer your questions, when you countersteer the bike, this makes the bike tip into the turn, once the bikes leaned over, the bike steering naturally tips into the turn itself. Proper throttle control application would actually mean the bike would contine to go around the corner without ANY input from you on the bars. If you would like to see both of these aspects in real life, if you get the new TW2 DVD it's beautifully filmed to show all of these things in great clarity.

 

Now, understanding this point, and thinking about what you've been doing here, what do you think is causing this feeling? Sure the bike's heavy, it's going to feel like it tips in more quickly, it may also feel weird odd if you have lots of weight over the rear and haven't compensated for this with suspension tweaks, as it'll make the forks longer and the steering feel slower, (a bit like riding a harley or something in comparison).

 

Let me know your thoguhts mate,

 

Bullet

[Jaybird180]

When you say slow turns, how slow are we talking here? There is a point below where countersteering doesn't turn the bike.

 

With that said, I doubt you're below that speed are are likely to find your answers in Bullet's response AND may need a geometry adjustment.

[ozfireblade]

I think you need to refer to your bible TOTW2 and read chapter 14 page 64 set it and forget it like you said you may be thinking about it too much and as jaybird says under a certain speed counter steering wont work. Hope it helps

[aardvark1614]

Hi Bullet

 

I may be thinking too much about this, but some points about the 1200 GS

 

1. It does not have forks as it has Telelever front suspension with sliders controlling the wheel ( no springs or hydraulics in the slider ) thus the wheelbase remains constant unlike a conventional bike which reduces wheelbase as the forks compress.

 

2. It has electronic suspension adjustment so I had it set on pillion with luggage but I think the rear shock is soft anyway

 

My guess is - IF I have countersteered at the correct point, and by enough, plus opened the throttle at the correct rate then the rear wheel will steer the bike around the corner. But, again, my guess is that the combination of low speed and tightish corner reduces the gyroscopic impact of the wheels, fires up a SR, DELAYING my trottle imput.

 

Am I close?

 

Does a bike remain countersteered in the turn?

 

--------------------

Regards and Toodaloo

 

Roundincircles

[Bullet]

Hi Bullet

 

I may be thinking too much about this, but some points about the 1200 GS

 

1. It does not have forks as it has Telelever front suspension with sliders controlling the wheel ( no springs or hydraulics in the slider ) thus the wheelbase remains constant unlike a conventional bike which reduces wheelbase as the forks compress.

 

2. It has electronic suspension adjustment so I had it set on pillion with luggage but I think the rear shock is soft anyway

 

My guess is - IF I have countersteered at the correct point, and by enough, plus opened the throttle at the correct rate then the rear wheel will steer the bike around the corner. But, again, my guess is that the combination of low speed and tightish corner reduces the gyroscopic impact of the wheels, fires up a SR, DELAYING my trottle imput.

 

Am I close?

 

Does a bike remain countersteered in the turn?

 

--------------------

Regards and Toodaloo

 

Roundincircles

 

Morning,

 

I'm sorry I'm not aware of the specifics of your bike, though the natural facts of how to steer a bike, how it hold a bike remains. Your suspension setup may need some work, but I'll leave that aspect, because in all honesty, I don't think that's really the problem at all.

 

Ok. Are you overcomplicating things...? Yes without a doubt, though don't worry it's a common thing to do when students have a misunderstanding about something which you clearly do here. Do you have the TW2 book? or are we just going from your knowledge of your day?

 

So now we've removed suspnsion, lets get back to straightforward simple points. I'll start by answer your questions, (again, simpler), and then we'll move onto getting some clarity.

 

If you countersteer the bike enough it will turn onto the line you set would you agree? If we apply more countersteering input what does the bike do? Once we've turned the bike, what do we do? Do we continue to provide more pressure or do we let go of the bar pressure on the bike? will the bike continue to steer or not?

 

Now to hold a line, you would indeed need to provide the right amount of throttle, following good throttle control will will make the bike hold that line without any pressure on the bars at all, and in actual fact the bars do not remain countersteered, they drop ever so slightly into the turn direction you're going in.

 

Now to remove your overcomplication here, the wheels provide gyro stability, nothing more you have to brake that stability as part of your countersteering input. The rear wheel only steers a bike when it's spinning and out of line with the bike, (which I'm deinitely not thinking your doing).

 

So now to the crux question, and this is the bit you really, really need to think about, as it's the cause of your issue, not the other things I'm afraid. If you apply enough countersteering at the entry to the turn to make your turn, and then add good throttle control, what is the only thing that can be causing the bike to run wide and alter it's line once we're into that turn?

 

Bullet

[aardvark1614]

Hi Bullit

 

You are helping - thanks - and making me work !

 

A Death grip on the bars ie I am moving the bars , as a SR , because the bike is tipping in too far at low speed ?

 

Read Chapter 14 totw2 which I agree with and accept

 

Regards

 

Rounincircles

[Bullet]

Hi Bullit

 

A Death grip on the bars ie I am moving the bars , as a SR , because the bike is tipping in too far at low speed ?

 

Ok we're making good progress mate.

 

Ok, to your observation yeah that would do it, so that would make the steering ineffective right?

 

How about your first point you raised, your own observation of what you described in post 1 of this thread? "and it would run wide so I PUSHED the bars in a conventional way to get the bike on line ie opposite to countersteer". Now we're understanding how a bike steers, does that action now seem completely contray to what you should have done? and in fact, could it be you actually created this problem by doing so?

 

If you felt the bike running wide, what should you have done? More or less countersteering input? Can you turn a bike any other way?

 

Bullet

[aardvark1614]

Hi Bullit

 

A Death grip on the bars ie I am moving the bars , as a SR , because the bike is tipping in too far at low speed ?

 

Ok we're making good progress mate.

 

Ok, to your observation yeah that would do it, so that would make the steering ineffective right?

 

How about your first point you raised, your own observation of what you described in post 1 of this thread? "and it would run wide so I PUSHED the bars in a conventional way to get the bike on line ie opposite to countersteer". Now we're understanding how a bike steers, does that action now seem completely contray to what you should have done? and in fact, could it be you actually created this problem by doing so?

 

If you felt the bike running wide, what should you have done? More or less countersteering input? Can you turn a bike any other way?

 

Bullet

[GregGorman]

When you say slow turns, how slow are we talking here? There is a point below where countersteering doesn't turn the bike.

 

Really? How about a 4 year old child riding a bicycle on training wheels, training wheels raised, do they experience counter steer?

 

What about this, when balancing a bicycle or motorcycle, while completely stopped, if the bike starts falling to the left which way do you turn the bars? To the left or the right?

[aardvark1614]

Bullit

 

More countersteer and more throttle ?

 

Plus look where you want to go ? Avoid target fixation

 

Am I close, if so can I publish Twist of the Grip in the Riff Mountains ?

 

Seriously the look at the exit combined with throttle is a must in tight bends on heavy bikes, forgot about that.

 

Regards

 

Roundincircles

[Bullet]

Bullit

 

More countersteer and more throttle ?

 

Plus look where you want to go ? Avoid target fixation

 

Am I close, if so can I publish Twist of the Grip in the Riff Mountains ?

 

Seriously the look at the exit combined with throttle is a must in tight bends on heavy bikes, forgot about that.

 

Regards

 

Roundincircles

 

You love to add more to it than's neccesary my friend.... A little more Countersteer is all thats required..... Throttle control rule is almost always constant for keeping the line, Just follow the rule, adding too much will make it run wide also. If you do the opposite, as you noted, it will of course run wide, beacuse we can only steer bike effctively with a countersteer.

 

Looking at exit's, etc, etc all relevant, essential and helpful, but they're not the crux of your issue.

 

If you completely understand why, I suggest you go out and practice and experiment with your countersteering, get the feeling of what works, why, etc, etc. Try a large empty car park, somwhere space and issue isn't a problem, and do see if you see what you did wrong, and how you'd do it properly next time. It's a nice safe environment to do so, and you can't beat that practical personal experience of knowing it for sure.

 

Bullet

[aardvark1614]

Thanks Bullit

 

The advice to practice in a safe area is well made.

 

I will hold off on publishing TOTG2 in The Riff Mountains

 

Also thanks for your patience !

 

Regards and have fun

 

Roundincircles

[Cobie Fair]

Bullit

 

More countersteer and more throttle ?

 

Plus look where you want to go ? Avoid target fixation

 

Am I close, if so can I publish Twist of the Grip in the Riff Mountains ?

 

Seriously the look at the exit combined with throttle is a must in tight bends on heavy bikes, forgot about that.

 

Regards

 

Roundincircles

 

Hi Round,

 

Somethhing that you'd want to be very aware of, and that is adding the 2 together!!!!!!!! Both throttle and lean angle changes (adding more) at the same time is the DEADLY COMBO!!! One goes right past the normal warning signs from the tires and bike. The slides are often un-recoverable. Looks to me exactly how Lorenzo did some of his big highsides (and this with the best bike, best tires, best electronics, and near best rider).

[Jaybird180]

Bullit

 

More countersteer and more throttle ?

 

Plus look where you want to go ? Avoid target fixation

 

Am I close, if so can I publish Twist of the Grip in the Riff Mountains ?

 

Seriously the look at the exit combined with throttle is a must in tight bends on heavy bikes, forgot about that.

 

Regards

 

Roundincircles

 

Hi Round,

 

Somethhing that you'd want to be very aware of, and that is adding the 2 together!!!!!!!! Both throttle and lean angle changes (adding more) at the same time is the DEADLY COMBO!!! One goes right past the normal warning signs from the tires and bike. The slides are often un-recoverable. Looks to me exactly how Lorenzo did some of his big highsides (and this with the best bike, best tires, best electronics, and near best rider).

 

I second your observation Cobie. I've been studying Lorenzo's crashes and I also think it's his bain.

 

 

 

 

When you say slow turns, how slow are we talking here? There is a point below where countersteering doesn't turn the bike.

 

Really? How about a 4 year old child riding a bicycle on training wheels, training wheels raised, do they experience counter steer?

 

What about this, when balancing a bicycle or motorcycle, while completely stopped, if the bike starts falling to the left which way do you turn the bars? To the left or the right?

 

Greg- I see your point, but what happens when we do a slow-speed U-turn a-la MSF parking lot? We weigh the outside of the bike (but I don't recall them teaching to weigh either peg).

[GregGorman]

 

Really? How about a 4 year old child riding a bicycle on training wheels, training wheels raised, do they experience counter steer?

 

What about this, when balancing a bicycle or motorcycle, while completely stopped, if the bike starts falling to the left which way do you turn the bars? To the left or the right?

 

Greg- I see your point, but what happens when we do a slow-speed U-turn a-la MSF parking lot? We weigh the outside of the bike (but I don't recall them teaching to weigh either peg).

 

The counter-steer is very fast and you're seeing how a motorcycle maintains balance when going around a corner, the front wheel turns in. Steering a motorcycle is a two step process - get the bike leaned(counter-steer) and then let the front tire track and balance the bike (stop counter-steering.)

 

The MSF U-Turn is Trials Riding technique to use the body to counter the weight of the bike so you can balance the bike when it's leaned over further than it can balance itself at that speed. Because the bike is so unstable at those speeds, the counter-steer motion to get the bike LEANED is very quick and light - the bike just falls over.

 

If flying is the art of throwing yourself at the ground and missing, steering an inline two-wheeled vehicle is the art of crashing and failing.

[Jaybird180]

I thought the U-turn was done straight vertical (or nearly as much as possible).

[Bullet]

If flying is the art of throwing yourself at the ground and missing, steering an inline two-wheeled vehicle is the art of crashing and failing.

 

I'm loving that analagy Greg, priceless!

 

Cobie, thanks for enhancing that point on steering and throttle together, it was a point well emphasized, so thanks for that. Greg, your explanation of the steering mechanics are excellent too, very clear well described.

 

What a team we make, we should consider do this as a job you know!

 

Bullet

[aardvark1614]

Have you considered horseriding. I'm reliably told they have no bars and don't use fossil fuel.

 

No stick to bikes !

[GregGorman]

I thought the U-turn was done straight vertical (or nearly as much as possible).

check this out. notice the counter steer prior to the bike falling to the left.

 

disclaimer: I did not listen to the audio so I have no idea what he's saying. This is for observation only.

[Jaybird180]

I watched the entire video including his incredibly long intro....I think we need another video (or maybe I'm the only one that needs another video); he wasn't very stable in his weavy movy motion.