Shoulder Position/angle?

[scatterbrained]

I have come across something that I cannot easily find an answer to and am hoping someone can clarify this for me. When I'm cornering my shoulders are usually roughly even or my inside shoulder may be leading somewhat. Recently I have encountered an entire group of riders who are saying that It should be the opposite. Essentially that the shoulders/torso should be open up to the inside of the turn as if you are turning your back to someone on the outside of the turn. This seems counter-intuitive to me but I know I could easily be wrong. Can anyone offer some insight on this for me?

[Bullet]

I have come across something that I cannot easily find an answer to and am hoping someone can clarify this for me. When I'm cornering my shoulders are usually roughly even or my inside shoulder may be leading somewhat. Recently I have encountered an entire group of riders who are saying that It should be the opposite. Essentially that the shoulders/torso should be open up to the inside of the turn as if you are turning your back to someone on the outside of the turn. This seems counter-intuitive to me but I know I could easily be wrong. Can anyone offer some insight on this for me?

 

I guess the question you need to ask yourself is this. By having your shoulder leading, and your body pointing in the opposite direction to that which you want to go, (i.e into and through the corner), would that make it easier or more difficult to see into the turn? After all, thats the diretcion we're going right..?

 

Bullet

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Scatter,

 

This aspect of the shoulders has a few pieces to it: for one, how is the lower body being anchored, this can have a huge effect on where the upper body ends up. One point Bullet was going for was. if the shoulders are not into the turn a bit, then will this make it harder to look into the turn?

 

This can be a bit hard to describe clearly, and in fact we spend a bit of time on this very subject, in virtually all the levels.

 

Have you done any of the schools at this point? We might be able to connect it to what you got trained in there.

 

CF

[Jasonzilla]

The way I've come to explain this is to focus on the hips. I haven't done level 3 yet, so I don't know how it's taught, but what I tell people I'm giving BP advice to is "open your hips to the turn and lean forward." I haven't checked to see what happens with a shoulder by doing this, but I don't think I would want to charge with my inside shoulder.

 

In this pic, if your hips are the green line turning right (of course it's an exaggeration) you should be leaned forward and your shoulders should be aligned with your hips.

 

 

This is Rick Bucher, our local fast guy until a major wreck (doesn't ride anymore). He has the same basic BP as Rossi. Body aligned with the bike and not exaggerated wit the lean. Shoulders in line with the hips.

 

 

The next one is Kagayama. He is a little more off the bike, but his shoulders are aligned with the hips, which are open to the turn.

 

 

Then there is me way back in the day. Some time in 2008. Crossed up with my shoulder not aligned, and my inside shoulder leading. Not recommended. Bad BP.

 

 

 

Whatever happens to the shoulder, I'd work on the other aspects of proper BP. Try using your hips as a base for where the rest of your body should be. It's a work in progress for me, but it's also one of my favorite things to investigate.

[Jaybird180]

Looks like Kagayama is leading the shoulder a bit...but it also looks like it's congruous.

[GregGorman]

Btw, it's Troy Corser on the #11 Yamaha. Kagayama would be on a #71 Suzuki.

[Jaybird180]

How did I miss that...good catch Greg

[RedWarr1oooRR]

1. Open shoulder line outside of inside hip ->

 

"Kiss the mirror" BP

 

2. Lean(push-off/anchor) to one side ->

 

Pivot steering

 

2a. Counter-steer(push/pull + above) ->

 

Two-step/3-step timing

 

 

Just some notes I made for myself.

[Jasonzilla]

Rossi has the best general BP I've seen. I was trying to get off the bike in my newer BP's, but have stopped, and developed a general position that I improve on. I watched a race from Italy that had Haga, Spies and Byrne in a line. Haga has a nice, general BP, Spies is exaggerated off the bike, and Byrne has the absolute worst BP I've seen outside the US (he still doesn't beat Pegram though).

[RedWarr1oooRR]

Rossi has the best general BP I've seen. I was trying to get off the bike in my newer BP's, but have stopped, and developed a general position that I improve on. I watched a race from Italy that had Haga, Spies and Byrne in a line. Haga has a nice, general BP, Spies is exaggerated off the bike, and Byrne has the absolute worst BP I've seen outside the US (he still doesn't beat Pegram though).

 

Rossi looks like he has "full" BP set much earlier than the other riders. Almost like the "hook turn" + pivot steer/CS done right at the turn-in. Where others seem to trail much harder and have to hold a more upright(or later BP). Good examples are Dani Pedrosa(really early hook-turn BP) vs Andrea Dovizioso(sp? Later hang-off).

 

Watch Rossi on a chicane and you'll see his elbow and knee are almost in sync when they pop out for the second part of the chicance. Hip flick with a hook turn so to speak.