Running Wide On Corner Exit

[colinginger]

Hi All

 

I am having some issues when exiting med->fast speed corners when applying the gas harder, I basically run out of track on the exit, so am having to apply the throttle more gently (thus getting left behind on corner exit!)... I am working on getting the suspension to be able to help, but was wondering if there is anything i can do to assist holding line and not drifting.

 

I am apexing fairly late to stop running wide but was wondering if I:

 

1. stopped picking the bike up so quickly, which could be causing the bike to run wide

2. moved uppper body lower to keep the bike on line

3. maybe dragged the rear brake slightly

 

Any other suggestions to try out on my next track day!?

 

Thanks C

[jasonbw]

Gday Colin, correct me if I'm wrong but I may have worked with you at Eastern Creek? Was that Level 2 we did that day? Reason I ask is I recall it was great you had your lock-on and visual skills working for you since the fast, open, sweeping Phillip Island was your next race (which you did mighty well at). Is that the case?

 

On the running wide problem:

Your point 1: This would only be the case if you are picking the bike up early, excessively. If you don't feel your pick-up is excessive then read on.

 

Your point 2: Level 3 brings you a skill which you partly describe in point 2; the 'hook turn', moving the upper body weight, forward and down which steepens the steering head angle. This tightens your line. However as you're describing this at the exit of the turn while you are getting more and more on the gas, this 'hook' has diminishing returns (the forks extend when on the gas which reduces the effectiveness of the hook).

 

Your point 3: A balancing act this is! Too much and you may be riding the leather sled, a little will get the weight onto the front helping you maintain a steeper steering head - but at a cost. The attention needed to do this effectively is considerable, also the fact that different direction turns and transitions in particular may have you unable to get that light touch on the rear brake. Due to those inconsistencies do you think it's probably better to stay off the rear brake... at least until we try the following suggestions.

 

EDIT: Couple of questions: Are you as relaxed on the bars as you feel you should be? Is there potential to get on the gas a little sooner, so the roll-on is more progressive throughout the turn? i.e. If were aggressive on the gas towards the exit then this will extend the forks giving the same symptom.

 

Now, failing that, you're relaxed and building speed nicely through the turn...

 

Getting the rear ride height set correctly will have a considerable positive impact on your ability to maintain a line when under power. Your bike - GSXR I believe? can fit a spacer above the rear shock if you don't have an aftermarket method of adjusting.

 

I've asked a fellow Sydney coach for some input on the size spacer he used to great effect... at the very least this might work as a ballpark to you to try.

 

Jason

[acebobby]

Hi Colin

At the end of last year I had a bit of a problem with one corner in particular, I felt I was running wide on the exit, I couldn't match the other guys exit speed and I was riding along the kerb. I tried alot of things from turning in later, slower entry, at this point I even self educated myself on suspension setup to try to dial the issue out with my suspension!

In the end I was doing a trackday with Nial Mackenzie one day and spoke to him about it, he agreed to follow me round, he followed a couple of laps then signaled me into the pits, asked why I wasnt going right over to the apex for this particular turn, after some discussion it concluded that for one reason or another I was taking this turn so that my bike and body were within the confines of the track, so much so that it was possible to pass me at the apex of this turn, Anyway knowing this allowed me to focus on this, I use the 2 step to get my apex and make sure I'm so close to the kerb, I actually focus on how close to the apex I can get now and it gives an amazing amount of room at the exit!

 

If you see my avitar, that is the corner in question, I like that picture as it shows me how much I have closed the gap between myself and the apex!

 

This may not be the problem you are suffering but its just to point out that you may be doing something simply wrong that could easily be pointed out by a following rider!

 

Bobby

[colinginger]

Hey Jas, yep its me alright! done level 3 as well.

 

1. don't think i'm excessively picking the bike up early but am making a mental note to get the bike onto the fat part of the tyre as early as possible. Maybe I should try picking it up at a slightly later point.

 

2. might try exagerating the hook turn to see if that makes any affect

 

3. rear brake solution was just clutching at straws

 

Are you as relaxed on the bars as you feel you should be? - maybe not as relaxed as i could be

Is there potential to get on the gas a little sooner, so the roll-on is more progressive throughout the turn? - cracking the throttle pretty early these days in the turn, maybe i can try to be a little more progressive rather than small amounts of gas... then lots!

 

Have a GSXR and there is a spacer fitted, would have to check the size. But would be good to know the size of spacer they used

 

Thanks C

[jasonbw]

Good stuff Colin!

 

Without absolute fact we'll only ever be wondering, so on your next trackday would it make sense once you're warmed up, to try a lap where you're exiting a particular turn quite stiff on the bars - imagine the pressure of racing if that helps.... then the next lap, be as relaxed as possible. Doing polar opposites like that can lead to great discoveries.

 

Repeat for the progressive roll-on (if it helps, repeat Keith Code's saying: "Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn"

 

Repeat for the change in your pickup drill.

 

Repeat again for he change in hook turn position.

 

Remember to give yourself only one goal per ride - even if it means pitting it mid session to get your head about the next change.

This'll give us something concrete - at best it'll be an "AH HA" moment, worst we'll see a concatenation of things we can make minor changes to.

 

A 3mm spacer in the shock is enough to notice a difference, after these changes above you can see if another 3mm makes it even better or not.

 

Sound good? I'll be there on the 14th, feel free to yell out!

[colinginger]

haha..... just been reading the other post 'raising the pace' and that's exactly whats happening to me! I am trying to go faster and running wide on corner exit..

 

so i guess i need to re-evaluate my turn points, the amount of steering input to see if i can turn later and use more steering input, thus hooking the turn, and therefore being able to get better drive out and not run wide.

 

would that be a good summary!?

[Bullet]

haha..... just been reading the other post 'raising the pace' and that's exactly whats happening to me! I am trying to go faster and running wide on corner exit..

 

so i guess i need to re-evaluate my turn points, the amount of steering input to see if i can turn later and use more steering input, thus hooking the turn, and therefore being able to get better drive out and not run wide.

 

would that be a good summary!?

 

Its not the "amount of steering input", its the rate of steering, i.e. quicker.

 

Jason's given you a really good plan of how to go about building and trying different things.

 

Bullet

[colinginger]

think its a couple of things that have caused the issue:

 

1. Fork setup

2. Turning to early

3. Not turning fast enough

 

I am trying to go faster but with the same turn points and speed of turning.. this is what i think is causing the issue. On friday I tried turning at a later point and steering faster and definitely made an improvement.

 

 

[jasonbw]

Nice one Colin!!!!

 

So you can get your suspension sorted, good, that takes care of fork setup.

 

You know it was a new turn point to use, so that's the Turn point sorted.

 

So what drill did you do in Level 3 that'll give you a faster steering rate that you need for turns like T1, T8 & T10 at the creek?

 

P.s. regarding suspension, I heard some wise words once that suggested if your trouble is related to steering then look at the fork, it is related to the drive out of the turn then look at the shock - food for thought.

[dbtriple]

G'day all,

 

I had similar concerns in level 4 - I raised my issues of turning wide with my coach, and after reading the long notes I had prepared, he informed me that it would be about vision - getting the turn in, mid point and particularly end point really sorted! I was shown a detailed circuit map (hand drawn) for eastern creek that another level 4 participant had prepared (he was a landscape designer) and it was incredible how many reference points this fellow had on the track - obviously his vision was working pretty well and he was acutely aware of when and what he was doing at various points around the track!

 

So I went out and did some of the level 2 drills that were recommended, and focused on getting my vision, particularly at the end of the turn and driving out, fixed up, and would you believe the old adage is true, you go where you look. This helped me greatly on turn 12 (focus on the dangly building thingy) turn 9 (flag marshal on turn 10) turn 7 (the middle of the overhead sign) and turn 2 (the portaloo on the hill).

 

Interestingly, I hadn't really been pushing it too hard through turn 7, but it is a legitimate corner in its own right, and deserves respect. It can really get you through that section of track a lot quicker, which I guess is the point.

 

So there's my two bob's worth. Nice to be back.

 

db

[colinginger]

So what drill did you do in Level 3 that'll give you a faster steering rate that you need for turns like T1, T8 & T10 at the creek?

 

trying to remember, maybe pivot steering. Was that level 3? might need to refreshen my memory!

[colinginger]

he informed me that it would be about vision - getting the turn in, mid point and particularly end point really sorted!

 

some one might be able to help me out here... but I would imagine there is a fine line between not looking ahead and then looking ahead to soon?

 

if i look ahead too soon when entering the corner (i.e. before turn point) then i'm more likely to turn early, therefore apex early and exit wider.

 

I guess if I don't look ahead soon enough, then i've just made the track smaller and would be reacting to slowly to the next actions that are required.

 

maybe on the exits I am focusing to much on the outside of the track and what I should be doing if focusing on the middle of the track.

 

examples of current corner exit RPs:

 

Turn 3 lights on left handside of track

Turn 7 bottom of the bridge support

Turn 12 concrete patch (then move to corner of stand)

[Kevin Kane]

trying to remember, maybe pivot steering. Was that level 3?

Colinginger;

Pivot Steering is part of the Level III cirriculum.

 

Rain

[johnnyrod]

In terms of fork setup, check your sag with and without rider are right, and if the front feels a bit vague when you're on the gas then try a bit more rebound damping. To be honest it sounds more like you're apexing too early and/or turning in too soon as you've suggested.

[jasonbw]

Gday Colin, well done on the big gains you made on your last outing at the ARDC race practise day!

 

You've a few questions so lets break them down:

 

some one might be able to help me out here... but I would imagine there is a fine line between not looking ahead and then looking ahead to soon?

 

if i look ahead too soon when entering the corner (i.e. before turn point) then i'm more likely to turn early, therefore apex early and exit wider.

 

I guess if I don't look ahead soon enough, then i've just made the track smaller and would be reacting to slowly to the next actions that are required.

 

Absolutely right, look ahead too soon prior to your 2 step (haven't forgotten that one have we?) and you can get lose. What drill will let you keep track of your turn in point in your peripheral vision while maintaining a nice 2 step?

 

maybe on the exits I am focusing to much on the outside of the track and what I should be doing if focusing on the middle of the track.

 

You're on the right track, having your attention on the very outside edge of the track means you want your tyres to run right to the edge, so would until you get the confidence you need to know where your tyres will end up then wouldn't it be wise to have an exit reference point a foot or two in from the edge?

 

However, when you do this a good gotcha might pop it's head up that you might need to be ready for... what happens when we look at our exit point for too long?

 

examples of current corner exit RPs:

 

Turn 3 lights on left handside of track

Turn 7 bottom of the bridge support

Turn 12 concrete patch (then move to corner of stand)

 

Can you see the Turn 3 exit RP when you need to lift your eyes from your Turn 3 MP (Mid Point reference point)? Not possible since it's over the crest, so would the High Tension tower in the background help you lift that vision from your MP sooner?

Turn 7, looking at the bridge support means we want to go there.... not particularly appealing to hit that metal Would looking at a specific letter of the "Sydney" word that we want to pass under, on the bridge above help with this? (e.g. the Letter "D" ) Would that also get your eyes up the track?

Love the Turn 12 Entry and Exit! But remember 3 points describe an arc, so to tick all the boxes could you do with a Mid Turn RP? one that you can see from the concrete, then lift your vision to the grandstand when you know you'll run over your mid point? Ever felt the switching form the concrete to the grandstand gives you a bit of a lost feeling in T12? Think getting a MP will solve it?

 

P.s. A couple of examples might be at the exit of T2 wanting to clip the last bit of ripple on the left, then lift your eyes when you know you'll hit it, up to the dug-out way in the distance (far side of the straight!). Turn 4 you might want to lift from your MP to the big white billboard to keep a nice tight line ready for T5 entry.

 

Have a look over a high quality lap video to give yourself a relaxed opportunity to form your next plan... let us know how it goes!