Different Styles

[faffi]

While most racing riders will demand that they have little or no engine braking to deal with, apparently Camier's style is heavily depending upon it. The amount is regulated with an EXUP style valve in the exhaust as well as throttle operation (sans fuel/ignition as I understood it). To avoid the engine coming back with a bang, electronics bring back one cylinder at a time.

 

What about you - do you prefer no, some or lots of engine braking? Personally, I prefer lots.

 

 

[ozfireblade]

While most racing riders will demand that they have little or no engine braking to deal with, apparently Camier's style is heavily depending upon it. The amount is regulated with an EXUP style valve in the exhaust as well as throttle operation (sans fuel/ignition as I understood it). To avoid the engine coming back with a bang, electronics bring back one cylinder at a time.

 

What about you - do you prefer no, some or lots of engine braking? Personally, I prefer lots.

 

 

 

 

I used to like to engine break beacuse it sounded cool. That was until I killed an engine from overun, wish I'd had a slipper clutch!! Like on the TOTW dvd says its cheaper to replace brake pads rather than engine parts.

[faffi]

By overrun, you mean sucking in too much fuel and vapour-lock or revving too high?

 

I've never thought about the sound part of it, I simply like the bike to slow down a lot when the close the throttle.

[ozfireblade]

By overrun, you mean sucking in too much fuel and vapour-lock or revving too high?

 

I've never thought about the sound part of it, I simply like the bike to slow down a lot when the close the throttle.

 

 

I probably didnt use the correct technical description but yeh revving too high and sending metal bits through the head.

 

The sound of a bike dropping down from high revs like a Big V Twin sounds cool!!!

[johnnyrod]

On the road I use engine braking a lot, my style developed from riding ###### old bikes with rubbish brakes and needing to be sent into corners smoothly, and lots of pillions. Didn't exactly set me up ideally for the track though! I do use the back brake a lot though which is more or less the same, but I don't change down early - some people insist on crashing down the box and bouncing it off the redline. For me that's not the way to go, plus on a twin you'd probably leave a dotted black line off the back tyre. Interesting to watch Rossi changing down a handful of gears at a time and letting the slipper clutch work overtime.

[Crash106]

I try not to use engine braking under the theory that brake pads are easier to replace than piston rings. Don't much like having the rear tire chirp and lock when all I wanted to do was shift gears. Also, when I want to use rear braking, I have better control by actually using the rear brake. I try to match my gear, engine speed and clutch release so I'm smoothly into gear and able to accelerate through the corner, or after the apex. On the other hand, with a big twin, you can just roll off the throttle to set your entry speed, then roll on the throttle to power through the corner. Torque rules! (I want a 400 pound Triumph Rocket Roadster!)

[faffi]

What makes you think that chopping the throttle will wear away your piston rings? I doubt you'll find any current manufacturer that doesn't recommend engine braking over conventional brakes as often as possible - every time you use the brakes you are wasting energy. Ignoring environmental issues, do what makes you feel comfortable on the bike

[acebobby]

What makes you think that chopping the throttle will wear away your piston rings? I doubt you'll find any current manufacturer that doesn't recommend engine braking over conventional brakes as often as possible - every time you use the brakes you are wasting energy. Ignoring environmental issues, do what makes you feel comfortable on the bike

 

If running a new bike in all manufacturer's recomend not to use engine braking to much during running in!

Also on a race track, you should be doing either one of two things, braking or accelerating, at what point on any vehicle does engine braking take priority over the bikes brakes?

[faffi]

I must admit I have never seen any manual ever telling me to avoid engine braking. To avoid high rpm, yes, but not that I shouldn't close the throttle. Every time you close the throttle, you're engine is doing some braking - the amount being very different from one engine to another for various reasons. I prefer one that really slows the bike (or car) and others don't, simple as that

 

 

[acebobby]

I must admit I have never seen any manual ever telling me to avoid engine braking. To avoid high rpm, yes, but not that I shouldn't close the throttle. Every time you close the throttle, you're engine is doing some braking - the amount being very different from one engine to another for various reasons. I prefer one that really slows the bike (or car) and others don't, simple as that

 

If you drop a gear or two and let out the clutch have you ever noticed how much the revs rise, in most cases you should be looking at the corner and not the rev counter, but it will rise significantly. I f you are running near the red line and drop a gear expecting enginee braking to slow you you will cause your engine damage as rev limiters dont work that way, I would suggest using brakes to slow down!

[faffi]

It is up to the rider to decide whether to change down or not and if so at what rpm. I also find it easier to know what gear I'm in if I engage each gear before going down another instead of block-shifting. I will do this regardless of rpm - riding hard, I let the engine get close to redline with each downshift, while during gentle riding I may keep the engine under 4000 rpm with each shift. It is quite possible for an engine to deliver strong engine braking even at quite low rpm. Going down a 10% decline in top gear at let's say 50 mph, some vehicles will demand you use the brakes while others may require some throttle to keep the speed constant. Again, I prefer the latter. Modern cars often close the intake completely, virtually eliminating engine braking (nothing to compress) which I find highly annoying. But back to bikes

[Jasonzilla]

The problem with engine braking, I've found, is that your bike is dictating your speed. It's a bad habit to get into. Just before attending CSS levels 1-2 I was an engine braking fiend. I could do 1:08 around Firebird East repetitively. Time and again. What I found though, is that I wasn't getting any better, and anything I tried with shifting was having slower results. I'd downshift into turns 1-2 knowing I could go faster, so I'd be in 3rd for entry. But this gave me no power on the way out. What to do.

 

I figured that I was riding with something dictating how fast I could go into and through a corner. Great for consistency, but not good since I was trying to improve my lap-times.

 

What happens when you blip the throttle coming off the clutch and going in is that you give yourself control of how fast you're entering a corner with your brakes. It's not being controlled by the engine, but by your braking. Holding the clutch going in is tricky, and you'll usually find that your coming off the clutch while leaned over isn't very relaxing, and takes work. Lots of work. Everyone is talking about some hard engine braking, so I'm assuming that everyone is coming off the clutch while still upright, since, no matter how awesome slipper clutches are, they're still not great while you're leaning over.

 

I practice blipping incessantly, and it's a work in progress, but around that same track, I've become wildly inconsistent, 1:07-1:11 (partially from the change in riding style I learned in the school shortly after learning to blip), but my fast time is 1:03. I could not do that with engine braking, no matter how hard I tried. I haven't ridden that track in some time, partially because I've been sick, and some because of two world class tracks opening near us over the last year, but I'd be willing to bet that I could more consistently get around that track now that I've had so much work put into blipping alone.

[faffi]

Never thought about it, but I do all my downshifting when more or less upright. I do not know what Camier does, but obviously it is possible to go fast using engine braking. But it is also probably easier without, which is why the vast majority will go for little or no engine braking while racing.

 

I keep forgetting, though, that this is mostly a track related forum whereas my needs are street based. Hence my preferences may shift if improving on tracks were my main criteria. Thanks for tolerating me

[Bullet]

This is an interesting thread. (Get's chair and coffee) Carry on, as you were.....

 

Bullet

[johnnyrod]

Can you post somehting abotu what Camier actually said? I did a quick search and all I could find was one reference to trying to set the bike up to balance engine braking and rear chatter (into turns I guess, on the brakes) from Brno WSB I think.

[Slider07]

For me, I find that engine braking comes down to more of an attention problem than anything. I've ridden bikes that have way to much engine brake, even blipping the throttle, causing the bike to hop or chatter. Note; I've also stopped using the rear brake due to chattering problems. So all of my attention is keeping the bike inline and trying not to crash than it is on using the brakes and matching my rpm's with corner speed. I've also run into the problem of not enough engine brake and wondering why I'm not slowing down even though I'm on the brakes as hard as possible. The bike that I have now has a slipper clutch which can actually create both of these problems if downshifting at the wrong time. Downshift too high and sometimes the rear gets out of line. Too low and it has no affect at all when braking hard. Either way I'm spending way to much attention on getting the bike to slow down rather than attaining the correct entry speed with matched rpm's. I had to spend a few laps to find the happy medium between hard on the brakes and engine braking. This also depended on how many gears I was dropping all at once. Or if it was just one at a time. I figured out that one at a time works best for me and that more than 2 at a time would unsettle the bike due to too much engine brake and take up to much attention. IMO every bike has it's "sweet spot" and every rider has his/her style that makes the process of braking/ downshifting more comfortable and efficient.

[johnnyrod]

I'd say that if your bike has a lot of engine braking (e.g. big twin) then downshift at a lower engine speed to reduce the effects, especially if you don't like how it feels. Personally I'm against block-shifting on a bike, I find I can downshift and blip the throttle and do it all pretty quickly (using the clutch), and the back stays planted, plus it's not the sort of thing you'd do with much lean angle if you can help it.

[faffi]

Can you post somehting abotu what Camier actually said? I did a quick search and all I could find was one reference to trying to set the bike up to balance engine braking and rear chatter (into turns I guess, on the brakes) from Brno WSB I think.

 

It was mentioned by Julian Ryder, I believe.

 

As to reducing or removing engine braking, you could try and upp the idle speed to 4000 rpm or so, which should easily make engine-braking an almost non-issue. Not ideal for street riding, but OK for track duty.