Bike Selection

[bradvanhorn]

Ok, so I was searching the market for a 600cc sportbike to use for track days, and I ended up with a 750. I may make an attempt at a race once I've done a couple track days, and I'm wondering if the 750 will put me in a class where I'm going to face more skilled competitors. I'm having a hard time guessing though, because there are so many 600's out there, I suppose sheer numbers could be an issue for that class. Any thoughts?

[Cobie Fair]

600's super popular. Don't know the current rules all over the country, at one point not every club would allow novices to race larger bikes.

 

Anyone familiar with CCS or WERA rules for novices and if there are any size restrictions?

 

CF

[Hotfoot]

Ok, so I was searching the market for a 600cc sportbike to use for track days, and I ended up with a 750. I may make an attempt at a race once I've done a couple track days, and I'm wondering if the 750 will put me in a class where I'm going to face more skilled competitors. I'm having a hard time guessing though, because there are so many 600's out there, I suppose sheer numbers could be an issue for that class. Any thoughts?

 

I'm not an expert on this, and the classes you have available to you will vary by organization... but the 750s are usually a separate class from the 600s and would race separately - unless you are riding a twin. In WERA, if I recall correctly, for inline 4s a 600cc would be a "C" class and a 750 (GSXR 750 for example) would be a "B" class, so they would run in separate divisions. Usually the C class (600) is the largest group of riders and a REALLY competitive class. I tried racing "up a class" in the B class in my 600, and with WERA West I actually did better than in the 600 class, because the class was at the end of the day and there were a lot less people in it! My experience with it is limited but I did not get the impression that the 750s, as a group, were more skilled or riding any faster than the 600 class, which is brutal and crowded.

 

So, the only real disadvantage I can think of is that there may be fewer classes available to you to ride in, and if your local race organization doesn't offer a B class you might have to ride with the 1000s, and on a big track that could make it tough to hold your own on a 750.

 

Now if you are riding a 750 TWIN, that is a totally different issue, sometimes a 750 twin (Ducati 749, for example) is allowed to run with the 600s, or they may have a completely different set of classes for twins.

 

Best to just look through the rule book to see what classes are offered, most organizations have the rulebook posted online now. See www.wera.com, the rulebook is here: http://maps.wera.com/rulebook/default.asp

 

I think you'll have a GREAT time on the 750, actually, those seem like a fantastic ride for track days.

[bradvanhorn]

I'm not an expert on this, and the classes you have available to you will vary by organization... but the 750s are usually a separate class from the 600s and would race separately - unless you are riding a twin. In WERA, if I recall correctly, for inline 4s a 600cc would be a "C" class and a 750 (GSXR 750 for example) would be a "B" class, so they would run in separate divisions. Usually the C class (600) is the largest group of riders and a REALLY competitive class. I tried racing "up a class" in the B class in my 600, and with WERA West I actually did better than in the 600 class, because the class was at the end of the day and there were a lot less people in it! My experience with it is limited but I did not get the impression that the 750s, as a group, were more skilled or riding any faster than the 600 class, which is brutal and crowded.

 

So, the only real disadvantage I can think of is that there may be fewer classes available to you to ride in, and if your local race organization doesn't offer a B class you might have to ride with the 1000s, and on a big track that could make it tough to hold your own on a 750.

 

Now if you are riding a 750 TWIN, that is a totally different issue, sometimes a 750 twin (Ducati 749, for example) is allowed to run with the 600s, or they may have a completely different set of classes for twins.

 

Best to just look through the rule book to see what classes are offered, most organizations have the rulebook posted online now. See www.wera.com, the rulebook is here: http://maps.wera.com...ook/default.asp

 

I think you'll have a GREAT time on the 750, actually, those seem like a fantastic ride for track days.

I did some searching this past weekend on WERA rules, so the rules link you provided was was familiar. What alarmed me was when I then started looking at some upcoming WERA events. At least one of the events only had A and C classes, and B was lumped with A, so just the scenario you mentioned (750s racing with/against 1000s). But frankly I was just as concerned about getting into C class and being overwhelmed by sheer numbers of 600's, from which I've heard a few horror stories as well (i.e. crashfest's).

 

In reading up on track days, I've seen plenty of comments about 750's being the great compromise bike, which is what had me looking at 750's in the first place. Most people were saying the 750's were more forgiving than the 600's, but weren't as much a handful as the 1000's. It sure seemed like a good option.

[Hotfoot]

I'm not an expert on this, and the classes you have available to you will vary by organization... but the 750s are usually a separate class from the 600s and would race separately - unless you are riding a twin. In WERA, if I recall correctly, for inline 4s a 600cc would be a "C" class and a 750 (GSXR 750 for example) would be a "B" class, so they would run in separate divisions. Usually the C class (600) is the largest group of riders and a REALLY competitive class. I tried racing "up a class" in the B class in my 600, and with WERA West I actually did better than in the 600 class, because the class was at the end of the day and there were a lot less people in it! My experience with it is limited but I did not get the impression that the 750s, as a group, were more skilled or riding any faster than the 600 class, which is brutal and crowded.

 

So, the only real disadvantage I can think of is that there may be fewer classes available to you to ride in, and if your local race organization doesn't offer a B class you might have to ride with the 1000s, and on a big track that could make it tough to hold your own on a 750.

 

Now if you are riding a 750 TWIN, that is a totally different issue, sometimes a 750 twin (Ducati 749, for example) is allowed to run with the 600s, or they may have a completely different set of classes for twins.

 

Best to just look through the rule book to see what classes are offered, most organizations have the rulebook posted online now. See www.wera.com, the rulebook is here: http://maps.wera.com...ook/default.asp

 

I think you'll have a GREAT time on the 750, actually, those seem like a fantastic ride for track days.

I did some searching this past weekend on WERA rules, so the rules link you provided was was familiar. What alarmed me was when I then started looking at some upcoming WERA events. At least one of the events only had A and C classes, and B was lumped with A, so just the scenario you mentioned (750s racing with/against 1000s). But frankly I was just as concerned about getting into C class and being overwhelmed by sheer numbers of 600's, from which I've heard a few horror stories as well (i.e. crashfest's).

 

In reading up on track days, I've seen plenty of comments about 750's being the great compromise bike, which is what had me looking at 750's in the first place. Most people were saying the 750's were more forgiving than the 600's, but weren't as much a handful as the 1000's. It sure seemed like a good option.

 

I'm not sure how soon you are thinking of racing, but it seems like the class lineups for WERA have been shifting around a bit - they seem to be very active in trying to get the right mix for each area, including eliminating any classes that are really small. So, if you wait a season, the classes offered may change, especially if the economy picks up. If you are ready sooner, you might jump on the WERA forum - it is a VERY active forum and they definitely read posts, so you can either post your question there, or maybe PM the moderator (Mongo) and ask him for his recommendations - which would also serve to let him know that there is at least one person looking for a 750 class. There might be a way you can run in the 600 class as a novice (but be unable to get points) or maybe there is another class that your bike is eligible for - or maybe you can find a class that is less crowded, to give you a fighting chance even if you are on a lower HP bike. I found the WERA staff to be friendly, professional, and quite willing to assist new racers, and they are certainly doing what they can to increase participation these days.

 

The 600 class is, indeed, scary.

 

For your first time racing, there is one other option to check - in some areas you can rent a Ninja 250 and run in a E class or a dedicated Ninja 250 class. It's cheap (cheaper than running your own bike, IMO), it's easy, and it is a fun and less intimidating way to do a first race. When I did it in CA it was $250 for the bike for the day, which included fuel and tires, and they had stands, etc and the bikes were fully race prepped and ready and waiting for you at the track. The class is less crowded, max speed is about 110mph, racers are friendly and don't take themselves too seriously, it's all kinds of fun.

[fossilfuel]

Ok, so I was searching the market for a 600cc sportbike to use for track days, and I ended up with a 750. I may make an attempt at a race once I've done a couple track days, and I'm wondering if the 750 will put me in a class where I'm going to face more skilled competitors. I'm having a hard time guessing though, because there are so many 600's out there, I suppose sheer numbers could be an issue for that class. Any thoughts?

 

Brad,

I have read this post and Hotfoot as usual is a plethera of information. You say you want to race after a couple of track days...this is not a good idea. It is my opinion that you need to do quite a few track days in the advanced group before you race. There might be a misconception that everyone on the track is your friend, not true. If you are not first you are always in someone's way. To get around you, riders will be on the curbing, braking late in the corners, cutting in front of you, pushing you off your line, and passing you close on the straight.I had a friend of mine get taken out in his first novice race at Barber by two AMA racers riding in 600cc expert that was combined with the 600cc novice race. Are you ready for this? Two track days is not enough time to be ready for what you are getting yourself into. If you are like my son and don't listen to a word I say then welcome to racing my friend. See you at the track.

 

The 600cc class in WERA is known as the "Meat Grinder" Class. I wonder why they call it that? LOL! The good thing about the 600cc is that you can run it in multiple classes - C-superstock or Superbike, B-Superstock or Superbike, and A Superstock or Superbike and Formula 1. The 750 you can run in B Superstock or B Superbike, A superstock or Superbike and Formula 1.

[bradvanhorn]

Brad,

I have read this post and Hotfoot as usual is a plethera of information. You say you want to race after a couple of track days...this is not a good idea. It is my opinion that you need to do quite a few track days in the advanced group before you race. There might be a misconception that everyone on the track is your friend, not true. If you are not first you are always in someone's way. To get around you, riders will be on the curbing, braking late in the corners, cutting in front of you, pushing you off your line, and passing you close on the straight.I had a friend of mine get taken out in his first novice race at Barber by two AMA racers riding in 600cc expert that was combined with the 600cc novice race. Are you ready for this? Two track days is not enough time to be ready for what you are getting yourself into. If you are like my son and don't listen to a word I say then welcome to racing my friend. See you at the track.

 

The 600cc class in WERA is known as the "Meat Grinder" Class. I wonder why they call it that? LOL! The good thing about the 600cc is that you can run it in multiple classes - C-superstock or Superbike, B-Superstock or Superbike, and A Superstock or Superbike and Formula 1. The 750 you can run in B Superstock or B Superbike, A superstock or Superbike and Formula 1.

Thanks for those comments. It is far safer for you to assume I will actually see how things go in my track days, whether it is 2 or 20, and then if all things go off in the best possible way, I may consider attempting a race. I currently have no intent to race, and in part because of the many things you wisely listed. I am not into absolutes however, so I consider the possibility still exists.

 

I recall talk of racing with someone not long ago and the 650 twins came up. I did give some consideration to an SV650, and maybe the twins class would be a better place to attempt a race (if I attempt a race). I wonder if I could pull the 750 i4 motor from the GSXR and install a 650 v-twin?

[Bullet]

Abolustely love Fossil's answer and it summarises it very well.

 

In the Uk we call the 600 class the "Axe murderers", which again, gives you a good idea of what it's like. When I first raced I described some of the lines and approaches to cornering as ambitious!

 

I completely agree with Fossil, you're much better to get many trackdays in and be at the sharp end before going racing, the amount of tracktime versus the cost is not comparable either, with racing being singularly the best way I've found to date of setting fire to unusually large amounts of spare cash.

 

Bullet

[Hotfoot]

I dunno what you're talking about, Fossil, everybody is nice to ME on the racetrack. Maybe people are just more laid-back here in Southern California...

 

Seriously, though, you and Bullet both make good points. I didn't mean to imply that jumping straight into a WERA race was a good plan, I just meant to show them as an example of a well-organized group that has good info readily available online. Anyway, I'm glad you jumped in with a reality check, reminding us all that there is more to it than just showing up on race day.

 

For my part, I started with CSS schools, then track days, then a race on a rented NSR50 at a go kart track, then CodeRace, then the new racer school at a local club to get a race license (on a rented Ninja 250), a local club race on the Ninja 250, then eventually a WERA race. That worked out pretty well. CodeRace was the best possible prep, I think, for racing, because you can do practice starts, you get two races, you work on a lot of skills (including passing) in a friendlier environment, and you can get a decent idea of whether you are fast enough to run in a club race.

 

And just so I know, is "plethora of information" a euphemism for "talks too much"?

[Cobie Fair]

I do recall a race early on (say 1980's) the passing was pretty aggressive, and as I got quicker, the passing was better, they wouldn't attempt the same passes, as they would never work.

[fossilfuel]

Brad,

I am not trying to discourage you. On the contrary, I just want you to know what happens when you line up on the grid. I went to 10 CSS race schools before I attempted racing. I didn't start racing until I was 54 so maybe I was a little cautious. LOL! Racing is unbelievable! The issue is whether you are ready to react to the conditions that can change in a split second. Some people will tell you the smaller bikes are better. The light weight twin class is a fun class as is the 250 class. Just remeber this...people have died in these classes. This past October I was watching the 250 race at the Grand National Finals when a racers engine let go going into turn 6. There was a 14 rider pile up. A father and his son were racing together, the father died.

If you seriously want to race, find a mentor at the track. Go on the WERA forum and post what you want to do. There will be someone that will step up and help you get started, myself included.

[Cobie Fair]

Brad,

I am not trying to discourage you. On the contrary, I just want you to know what happens when you line up on the grid. I went to 10 CSS race schools before I attempted racing.

 

Hey Fossil, just to be ultra clear for the guys on the forum, did you do the regular schools, or actually come to CODERACE? I didn't recall you at CODERACE...but I have been hit on the head.

 

CODERACE is the only one we actually call a race school.

 

CF

[bradvanhorn]

I'm definitely going to do a CODERACE... now all I need is medical clearance, wife's approval, and some money . Actually I do need that first one, and once I have it then the latter two won't be a problem. I'm going to mark the October CODERACE on my calendar and think positively...

[fossilfuel]

Brad,

I am not trying to discourage you. On the contrary, I just want you to know what happens when you line up on the grid. I went to 10 CSS race schools before I attempted racing.

 

Hey Fossil, just to be ultra clear for the guys on the forum, did you do the regular schools, or actually come to CODERACE? I didn't recall you at CODERACE...but I have been hit on the head.

 

CODERACE is the only one we actually call a race school.

 

CF

 

You are so right. I didn't realize I said race school. I meant riding school. I wanted to do a Code race but thought at the time the riding schools were the best value.

[Crash106]

"Race where you can win."