Experiments With Turn In

[Crash106]

If I am already at an appropriate speed for a corner, and I am maintaining that speed as I turn in, is there any reason I need to be OFF the throttle?

 

For example, two bikers approach a corner. Biker A sets his speed early, he's going 60 mph 20 feet before the turn point and when he reaches his turn point, he maintains a steady throttle and tips it in. Biker B is going 65mph 20 feet before the turn point and is still on the brakes. He manages to reach the turn point at 60 mph and tips in off the throttle and off the brakes.

 

Clearly biker A has less drama, but does either bike have a handling or safety advantage and why?

[warregl]

If I am already at an appropriate speed for a corner, and I am maintaining that speed as I turn in, is there any reason I need to be OFF the throttle?

 

For example, two bikers approach a corner. Biker A sets his speed early, he's going 60 mph 20 feet before the turn point and when he reaches his turn point, he maintains a steady throttle and tips it in. Biker B is going 65mph 20 feet before the turn point and is still on the brakes. He manages to reach the turn point at 60 mph and tips in off the throttle and off the brakes.

 

Clearly biker A has less drama, but does either bike have a handling or safety advantage and why?

 

If I understand you question correctly then to my understanding of throttle control from level 1, the answer is no. You set your entry speed, go neutral on the throttle, quick turn, and then begin to steadily roll on the throttle maintaining the 40% front to 60% rear weight distribution and keep the suspension in the "sweet spot".

 

It would appear to me that in your example biker B would have an unsettled suspension and would be loading the front tire and demanding more traction from the front contact patch than is completely necessary.

 

If I am mis-understanding or mis-representing the lesson on throttle control please correct me. I am not by any means an expert and am posting as much to clarify my understanding as Crash's!

[slobdog]

If I am already at an appropriate speed for a corner, and I am maintaining that speed as I turn in, is there any reason I need to be OFF the throttle?

 

For example, two bikers approach a corner. Biker A sets his speed early, he's going 60 mph 20 feet before the turn point and when he reaches his turn point, he maintains a steady throttle and tips it in. Biker B is going 65mph 20 feet before the turn point and is still on the brakes. He manages to reach the turn point at 60 mph and tips in off the throttle and off the brakes.

 

Clearly biker A has less drama, but does either bike have a handling or safety advantage and why?

 

I love this question and will be very keen to find out what the more experienced think......The comparison is coasting into the corner, or timing everything to be be 'off' coincident to 'tippng in'.

 

I'll have a bash, which will no doubt be misplaced

 

I think biker A will for sure will have a comparatively relaxed time, but will perhaps not be realising his 'optimum' (assuming he wants to get around around a track as fast as possible).

 

If biker B applied his brakes progressively, he shouldn't be making any abrupt movements and load will transfer to the front smoothly, keeping the front loaded, but not bottomed out. This weight will allow the bike to turn quicker and he spends less time at full lean angle.

 

So, extending that to a logical conclusion, Biker B should be able to achieve a higher entry speed through his approach?

 

Who has the higher safety margin - Biker A - because he isn't trying to time things so precisely and can chill out and ensure he is totally smooth.....

 

Hmmm.... so.maybe I'm totally wrong

[warregl]

It would appear to me that in your example biker B would have an unsettled suspension and would be loading the front tire and demanding more traction from the front contact patch than is completely necessary.

 

I was probably assuming too much with this statement and should have said "could" instead of "would" since as Slobdog pointed out biker B might be applying progressive braking and not over-stressing his traction. Would this be an example of proper trail braking maybe? We didn't cover this in CSS but I understand it is an accepted practice by some riders.

 

But to Crash's initial question, if biker A is at proper entry speed should he be "off" the throttle? I read it to mean that by "off the throttle" he meant closing it rather than maintaining it.

[Crash106]

In this hypothetical example, both motorcycles are going the exact same speed (60 mph) when they are leaned into the corner.

 

• 
   
  
• Rider A has looked ahead and judged that he wants to enter the turn at 60 mph. He is using enough throttle to maintain his speed of 60 mph until, and while, he tips in. (So the throttle is slightly OPEN while he leans the bike, but he's at a safe speed and not ADDING any throttle.)
  
• Rider B also leans the bike over going 60 mph, but he would be OFF the throttle, decelerating and slightly loading the front tire, while he leans the bike.
  
• After leaning the bike (getting the bike turned), both riders would then roll on the throttle as per TCR1.
  

So long as the bike isn't bouncing around on the suspension, I don't think the bike cares if you are ON the throttle of OFF the throttle when you turn, provided you are going the correct speed. Am I wrong? Or am I, perhaps, missing the point and begging for trouble?

 

On the other hand, I think Rider A would probably be mentally calmer and more relaxed on the bike. Do you agree?

[sifubs]

Biker B should turn in easier as more weight is on the front, however, both will need to roll on throttle to maintain speed in the turn.

[Bullet]

In this hypothetical example, both motorcycles are going the exact same speed (60 mph) when they are leaned into the corner.

 

• Rider A has looked ahead and judged that he wants to enter the turn at 60 mph. He is using enough throttle to maintain his speed of 60 mph until, and while, he tips in. (So the throttle is slightly OPEN while he leans the bike, but he's at a safe speed and not ADDING any throttle.)
• Rider B also leans the bike over going 60 mph, but he would be OFF the throttle, decelerating and slightly loading the front tire, while he leans the bike.
• After leaning the bike (getting the bike turned), both riders would then roll on the throttle as per TCR1.

So long as the bike isn't bouncing around on the suspension, I don't think the bike cares if you are ON the throttle of OFF the throttle when you turn, provided you are going the correct speed. Am I wrong? Or am I, perhaps, missing the point and begging for trouble?

 

On the other hand, I think Rider A would probably be mentally calmer and more relaxed on the bike. Do you agree?

 

I'll let you walk along with this one for a while, see where you go. Wonder what difference you think the throttle has on suspension/geometry and the effort of turning a bike? Could this be a part of the equation you've not considered I wonder?

 

Bullet

[Bullet]

If I am already at an appropriate speed for a corner, and I am maintaining that speed as I turn in, is there any reason I need to be OFF the throttle?

 

For example, two bikers approach a corner. Biker A sets his speed early, he's going 60 mph 20 feet before the turn point and when he reaches his turn point, he maintains a steady throttle and tips it in. Biker B is going 65mph 20 feet before the turn point and is still on the brakes. He manages to reach the turn point at 60 mph and tips in off the throttle and off the brakes.

 

Clearly biker A has less drama, but does either bike have a handling or safety advantage and why?

 

If I understand you question correctly then to my understanding of throttle control from level 1, the answer is no. You set your entry speed, go neutral on the throttle, quick turn, and then begin to steadily roll on the throttle maintaining the 40% front to 60% rear weight distribution and keep the suspension in the "sweet spot".

 

It would appear to me that in your example biker B would have an unsettled suspension and would be loading the front tire and demanding more traction from the front contact patch than is completely necessary.

 

If I am mis-understanding or mis-representing the lesson on throttle control please correct me. I am not by any means an expert and am posting as much to clarify my understanding as Crash's!

 

 

This is true of the way we start to coach students, evolves as you progress and your speed moves on. When you get to level 4, and want to really push on, if you were racing, this approach would be slow and you'd have to ammend it. It works beautifully for riding on the road though.

 

Bullet

[warregl]

This is true of the way we start to coach students, evolves as you progress and your speed moves on. When you get to level 4, and want to really push on, if you were racing, this approach would be slow and you'd have to ammend it. It works beautifully for riding on the road though.

 

Bullet

 

That makes perfect sense to me, "learn to crawl before you walk, and walk before your run". I'm doing level's 3 & 4 next month so I'll look forward to those lessons. Thanks.

[Jasonzilla]

If you're accelerating while entering a corner, you're doomed at some point. Plain and simple. I was lucky enough to listen while I was at level 1 when I got black flagged for adding lean angle while accelerating because, although I was doing some alright times and was comfortable, I didn't have to learn that lesson the hard way when I got to the limits of my tires. With todays sportbike tires, you can go farther before the traction gods come to collect for your mistakes. What this actually means though, is that you are going to pay a higher price once you are shown the error of your ways. I was at this level when I attended level 1:

 

 

 

 

I knew I did it and used it to adjust my corner speed (accelerate) while entering corners (adding lean angle). I was making up for poor corner entry. When I actually surpassed my traction limits, had I not listened at nor attended the school, think of the potential repercussions once I met that limit. I would have needed a stewardess and no smoking signs.

 

If you're at "static throttle," you're safe because you're going to meet some deceleratory forces against the tires that will allow the front to be weighted during cornering. I think it's part of slip angle. The problem is that at corner entry your forks are extended and the rear wheel is still weighted down more than it would be if you were even just off the gas, let alone being on the throttle.

 

Your best option of the two, if you're going for speed, is braking into the corner. It steepens your fork angle more than just being off the throttle and even unweights the rear tire just enough to improve turning that much more. Both of these allow for quicker steering.

 

There's also the question of body position. If you're on the throttle, even maintenance, you're probably over the tank already. This decreases the force with which you can place your weight forward on the tank while steering into the corner, which would have helped decrease the fork angle while steering.

 

If you're braking, you're sitting up making the above statement null while you're leaning into the corner loading the front.

 

Being off the throttle, I believe, would also give you a smoother roll-on after the steering input with a better understanding of where the throttle position already is once you crack it on. Also, think of the comfort you'd take the turn with if it's a right handed turn. You'd be opening yourself up to "auto throttle." I don't have my book with me, but it's the effect you get when you're on the throttle and holding on too tight. Bumps and things will make your hand move as well making you possibly twist and accelerate. My guess is this can happen as well while holding the throttle and giving a turn input. Not to mention the bumps causing the actual auto throttle while in a corner. THEN there's holding the right throttle and making a left handed turn. That hand and arm are supposed to be relaxed.

 

Lastly: it's a rule that being stuck on the throttle is the sure sign you've got a bad line. The rider of the two who's stuck on the throttle entering a turn (given it's not a max speed corner which is an exception to the throttle control rule) needs to work on that corner to improve his line. I'm sure I've missed something, but there you go. You don't have to be off the throttle if you are at a static, or maintenance, throttle, but don't be accelerating and why not try to fix your line?

[Bullet]

Ping, we have a winner. Great post Jason.

 

Bullet

[slobdog]

Great post Jason.

 

I agree, great post. That is pretty much what I thought I should be doing, but with a clear explaination as to why. That has helped me clear up a few pointa. Many thanks

[Crash106]

Thanks for all your feedback. I appreciate your taking the time to respond. I have been out playing in traffic for about a week now, and here is what I learned:

 

1. 
    
   
2. It was fun trying to time everything perfectly and roll off the throttle just before the turn in. It worked fine. The bike liked to turn that way and it's was not hard to do. At the same time, any advantage gained by using momentum to change the steering geometry seemed small at the speeds I was riding.
   
3. Making an effort to enter corners on the brakes was a pain in the seat warmer. Again, I may have gained a small advantage in turn-in speed, but I had to enter corners hotter than I normally would in order to need to use the brakes. On the other hand, I did trail brake all the way to the apex in the second corner of a downhill right-left corkscrew. I needed to do it and had no problems using the technique when necessary.
   
4. Setting my speed early and running into the corner on neutral or maintenance throttle worked fine in almost every corner I tried it on. This technique allowed me to setup for the turn, then keep my eyes on the vanishing point. With my eyes up, my mind relaxed and nothing else to do, I was better able to subconsciously calculate my speed, turn point and roll on. By letting my eyes guide me, instead of my technique, I believe I actually rode faster and with less effort. My exit speed was certainly higher.
   

 

I believe it is okay, even beneficial, to have a standard technique you use for most turns most of the time. I also see great value in knowing the other methods and being able to use them as necessary.

 

I hope you have a wonderful ride this weekend!

[spgtech]

So, at the risk of hijacking this thread, I would like to continue the above discussion:

 

If you have a series of turns, like turn 5, 6, and 7 of Streets of Willow, and a slow enough bike where you are accelerating throughout the entire portion, is it NECESSARY to roll off the throttle to load the front wheel for a quick turn in between turns?

 

I ask the above question because I dropped my bike during a proctice session a few weeks back. When looking back over the crash, I found a few things:

 

First, I do not remember the front ever catching or biting before it tucked, There was a smooth, quick steering movement from vertical to horizontal.

 

Second, according to the GPS laptimer, my course from turn entry to exit off the track was a straight line starting at 55 mph (slowing considerably as the footpeg ground away).

 

Third, I was still on the gas, accelerating from turn 5 to 6 as I flicked it in and dropped it .

 

Minimal damage to bike, none to me.

 

After thinking of it for a couple of weeks, and seeing I was still accelerating into the corner, I am attempting to move onto the "lessons learned" part and would like a little help.

 

I am thinking that the solution would be either using a much gentler line and turn initiation if I felt I must stay on the gas, or; better yet, roll on for all I can get away with on the exit of five, roll off just before the turn in, load the front, turn in, and get back on the gas as soon as possible.

 

Thoughts regarding the above plan?

 

Thanks in advance,

-Sean

 

 

 

[Hotfoot]

So, at the risk of hijacking this thread, I would like to continue the above discussion:

 

If you have a series of turns, like turn 5, 6, and 7 of Streets of Willow, and a slow enough bike where you are accelerating throughout the entire portion, is it NECESSARY to roll off the throttle to load the front wheel for a quick turn in between turns?

 

I ask the above question because I dropped my bike during a proctice session a few weeks back. When looking back over the crash, I found a few things:

 

First, I do not remember the front ever catching or biting before it tucked, There was a smooth, quick steering movement from vertical to horizontal.

 

Second, according to the GPS laptimer, my course from turn entry to exit off the track was a straight line starting at 55 mph (slowing considerably as the footpeg ground away).

 

Third, I was still on the gas, accelerating from turn 5 to 6 as I flicked it in and dropped it .

 

Minimal damage to bike, none to me.

 

After thinking of it for a couple of weeks, and seeing I was still accelerating into the corner, I am attempting to move onto the "lessons learned" part and would like a little help.

 

I am thinking that the solution would be either using a much gentler line and turn initiation if I felt I must stay on the gas, or; better yet, roll on for all I can get away with on the exit of five, roll off just before the turn in, load the front, turn in, and get back on the gas as soon as possible.

 

Thoughts regarding the above plan?

 

Thanks in advance,

-Sean

 

Do think it is possible that your front wheel came up off the ground as you were transitioning from side to side, on the gas?

 

As you know, the cornering force alone adds some load on the front suspension, so as you flick the bike from one side to the other there is a moment in the middle where the front suspension has a chance to rebound (if the rebound settings are soft enough to allow it to happen that quickly) and the front of the bike can rise. Combine that with a a driving throttle, and you can lift the front wheel. Have you ever experienced a wheelie where you set the front wheel down while it was slightly turned to one side? Quite a wobble, right, as the front wheel corrects itself? So I'm wondering, is it possible that the front wheel came off the ground a bit, then you continued to turn it while it was in the air, so that it came down crooked and slid out before it could re-align itself to your direct of travel?

 

Here's another question: when you think back to your MOST AGGRESSIVE quick transition turns, is there any chance that you pull UP a little on the handlebar, in your effort to get the bike over quickly? I know I have done it, I made a fast transition, on the gas, on a slightly downhill turn, and I pulled up some on the outside bar, and YEE-HAH the front end came right up, YIKES! Fortunately, I was too surprised to tense up on the bars so when the front wheel landed it just snapped back into line; it wobbled, and my turn was lousy, but it didn't slide.

 

Have you checked the rebound settings on the front suspension? Try pushing down hard on the front end and see how fast it comes back up. If it springs right back up the settings may be too soft for your level of riding, you may need to increase the rebound damping to keep the front end from popping up dramatically as you come out of a turn.

[spgtech]

Thanks for your reply Hotfoot.

I'm pretty sure I didn't pull the front off the ground, the bike is a Ninja 250 with only 30 horsepower, thus the desire to stay on the gas for the series of turns. The track was slightly wet, but seemingly not enough to run rains. The part which made me think I had fumbled some point of technique, instead of just loosing traction mid corner, was the skid happening on turn in, before the bike started to change direction. While it is certainly smoother and less busy to stay on the gas through the series, I may have to try rolling off if that is the way to keep the front end planted.

-Sean

[Hotfoot]

Thanks for your reply Hotfoot.

I'm pretty sure I didn't pull the front off the ground, the bike is a Ninja 250 with only 30 horsepower, thus the desire to stay on the gas for the series of turns. The track was slightly wet, but seemingly not enough to run rains. The part which made me think I had fumbled some point of technique, instead of just loosing traction mid corner, was the skid happening on turn in, before the bike started to change direction. While it is certainly smoother and less busy to stay on the gas through the series, I may have to try rolling off if that is the way to keep the front end planted.

-Sean

 

Roger that, it would indeed be a lot less likely to get a wheelie on the Ninja! Suspension might still be something to look at, especially after reading your other post where you mention tire wear - have those faster guys made some suspension improvements, that they are willing to tell you about?

 

Speaking of wheelies on the Ninja 250 I have to share a story - my first WSMC race was on a rented Ninja 250, my husband and I both rented bikes and raced. We are very competitive and we were gridded right next to each other, each utterly determined to finish in front. The green flag dropped, and from the corner of my eye I saw my husband stand that Ninja 250 straight up. I took off and he never had a chance, although I learned later that he recovered pretty fast and was close behind me - for a while, anyway. He was worried about getting enough power at the start to overcome the fact that he is heavier than me - he never dreamed he would get a massive wheelie!

 

I think Ninja 250 racing is awesome, I've done it a few times and the people were great and it was really good racing. Have a great time and I hope to see you out there.

[faffi]

Were all on Toofiddies, Sean? My comment about getting over the front to prevent wheelies was more directed towards much stronger bikes, like WSBK and MotoGP, although I think even a 30 hp Ninja could get the front a little light around 1st gear corners?

[spgtech]

Yes, the front wheel can pop up from time to time, but not usually much of a danger. Mostly I was wondering if the added weight transfer forward (and therefore a roll off) was a necessary component for a quick turn in. I don't think I was adding throttle when turning in, but I don't think I came off the gas either.

-Sean

[Hotfoot]

Yes, the front wheel can pop up from time to time, but not usually much of a danger. Mostly I was wondering if the added weight transfer forward (and therefore a roll off) was a necessary component for a quick turn in. I don't think I was adding throttle when turning in, but I don't think I came off the gas either.

-Sean

 

If you have a copy of Twist of the Wrist (the first one) there is a section in there that adresses this question, it's in the chapter called "Timing", the section called "Your Timing Target". It's MUCH more helpful to read the whole thing, but here is a bit of it:

 

"Fast esses and compound turns. When two or more turns are strung together and cannot be taken wide open, timing is important. On a quick right/left or left/right combination, time the steering change so that the throttle is rolled off right before the transition from side to side."

 

Please do read the rest of the section (too much to type here) becuase it explains WHY. There is quite a bit of info on how the suspension reacts to the cornering loads, throttle changes, etc., how long the roll-off should last, and lots of other details about timing your braking, steering, roll-off and roll-on in a variety of different types of corners. It addresses the ease-of-steering, suspension movement, and overall speed into and out of the corners relative to your braking, steering and throttle input timing.

 

It's really good stuff, thanks for making me go read it again.

[spgtech]

Wow Hotfoot, talk about on point! I do have that book and I'll go back and read that section (and the rest of the book as well).

Much appreciated.

-Sean

[fossilfuel]

"For example, two bikers approach a corner. Biker A sets his speed early, he's going 60 mph 20 feet before the turn point and when he reaches his turn point, he maintains a steady throttle and tips it in. Biker B is going 65mph 20 feet before the turn point and is still on the brakes. He manages to reach the turn point at 60 mph and tips in off the throttle and off the brakes."

 

While Biker "A" and "B" were preoccupied with getting in the corner at 60 and 65 mph, Biker "C" came hauling a.s down the inside at 90 initiating maximum braking until he started his tip in on the inside of biker "B".He used trail braking to the apex which shortened his turning radius for the exit. He was able to get on the gas sooner and launched out of the corner leaving biker "A" and "B" to wonder wtf?

[Bullet]

Thanks for all your feedback. I appreciate your taking the time to respond. I have been out playing in traffic for about a week now, and here is what I learned:

 

1. It was fun trying to time everything perfectly and roll off the throttle just before the turn in. It worked fine. The bike liked to turn that way and it's was not hard to do. At the same time, any advantage gained by using momentum to change the steering geometry seemed small at the speeds I was riding.
2. Making an effort to enter corners on the brakes was a pain in the seat warmer. Again, I may have gained a small advantage in turn-in speed, but I had to enter corners hotter than I normally would in order to need to use the brakes. On the other hand, I did trail brake all the way to the apex in the second corner of a downhill right-left corkscrew. I needed to do it and had no problems using the technique when necessary.
3. Setting my speed early and running into the corner on neutral or maintenance throttle worked fine in almost every corner I tried it on. This technique allowed me to setup for the turn, then keep my eyes on the vanishing point. With my eyes up, my mind relaxed and nothing else to do, I was better able to subconsciously calculate my speed, turn point and roll on. By letting my eyes guide me, instead of my technique, I believe I actually rode faster and with less effort. My exit speed was certainly higher.

 

I believe it is okay, even beneficial, to have a standard technique you use for most turns most of the time. I also see great value in knowing the other methods and being able to use them as necessary.

 

I hope you have a wonderful ride this weekend!

 

 

The only thing I'm going to say here my friend is this. Just because you can roll on the throttle before turning in, doesn't make it correct technique. The reason you can get away with this right now, is becase you're not at a pace where it's entirely critical, (i.e you're on the edge of available grip/traction). If you were, this approach would end up in you having to add more lean angle, whilst on the gas, which would end up in most cases in a crash.

 

As riders, we often get away with a lot of errors in our technqiue because we're either not at a high enough pace, and therefore there are no consequences for not bothering to do it correct. We must not make the distinction that because we're getting away with it, at some point it might not turn out to be a problem. The throttle rule is one of the very most important rules of motorbiking, and it must never be forgotten, any variation to it is because of another factor which is the error, not the other way around.

 

Bullet

[Crash106]

Hello Bullet and All,

 

Thanks for the feedback and the warnings, but I never said "roll on the throttle BEFORE turning in," and I'm talking about the turn-in, not the roll on so TCR1 literally does not apply. Since almost everyone has misread or misunderstood my question, let me see if I can reduce it to simplest terms:

 

1. 
    
   
2. Increasing speed + Increasing lean angle = Bad. Everyone agrees.
   
3. Reducing speed + Increasing lean angle = Good. Almost everyone agrees.
   
4. Maintaining speed + Increasing lean angle = THIS is my question--okay or not okay?
   

I'm really talking about the application of TCR2--remember that one? I didn't think this was such a hard question. I'll shut up now.

[Bullet]

• Rider A has looked ahead and judged that he wants to enter the turn at 60 mph. He is using enough throttle to maintain his speed of 60 mph until, and while, he tips in. (So the throttle is slightly OPEN while he leans the bike, but he's at a safe speed and not ADDING any throttle.)

Hi Crash,

 

I'm sorry, but you did say, gas then turn..... in a previous post, hence why I picked you up on this point, I cannot left that unresolved, because it's not correct. There are occasions when you're on the gas before you turn in, in perhaps kinks on racetracks, but as a general rule, we're not rolling on or on checked gas before turning in. (as a general rule I must stress).

 

I'll answer your question in the next post.

 

Bullet