warthog1984 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 What is the best way to "save" a blown corner? I've read TOTW2 and am gradually working through it while riding (mostly around the Mulholland area). Most of the time I'll do OK, sometimes I'll do very good. Occasionally, I'll miss and apex too soon, mostly on slight hills in tighter corners. What I usually end up in is: 1) Line running wide (natural end ~5ft outside the lane) 2) Modest lean angle left "in reserve" ( some cornering clearance to the kickstand , probably near the limit for the tires & Gs I have available without falling over) 3) Rock wall on the outside edge of the lane 4) 3-6s reaction time available before I go "out" 5) throttle rolling on 6) bike balanced front/back What is the best way to handle this? I don't feel comfortable rolling on the throttle much more, and I don't want to hit the wall. Currently what I'm doing is focusing on the exit of the turn where I want to go, breathing & loosening up, standing the bike up enough to gain more traction, scrubbing speed with both brakes, then leaning back down while trying to keep the line tight. Is there a better way to handle this? I don't mind scrapping the kickstand as long as it doesn't throw the bike out of control. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 What is the best way to "save" a blown corner? I've read TOTW2 and am gradually working through it while riding (mostly around the Mulholland area). Most of the time I'll do OK, sometimes I'll do very good. Occasionally, I'll miss and apex too soon, mostly on slight hills in tighter corners. What I usually end up in is: 1) Line running wide (natural end ~5ft outside the lane) 2) Modest lean angle left "in reserve" ( some cornering clearance to the kickstand , probably near the limit for the tires & Gs I have available without falling over) 3) Rock wall on the outside edge of the lane 4) 3-6s reaction time available before I go "out" 5) throttle rolling on 6) bike balanced front/back What is the best way to handle this? I don't feel comfortable rolling on the throttle much more, and I don't want to hit the wall. Currently what I'm doing is focusing on the exit of the turn where I want to go, breathing & loosening up, standing the bike up enough to gain more traction, scrubbing speed with both brakes, then leaning back down while trying to keep the line tight. Is there a better way to handle this? I don't mind scrapping the kickstand as long as it doesn't throw the bike out of control. The best way to handle it is of course not to miss the apex in the first place - but that doesn't help you much now does it? More seriously: looking at the exit of the turn, keeping loose is a good start. You write that you stand the bike up and brake. First, could you explain why you do this? Standing the bike up (and braking) will only get you closer to the outside wall! Are you are maximum available lean when this happens? - If not, how could you utilize this? Would there be another way to tighten your line? - could you possibly do this by transferring a little bit of weight to the front? How? The dangers of added lean and throttle have been discussed here several time (several films on youtube to demonstrate it too), so what options do you have to avoid this? Yeah, no easy answers but a bit of food for thought (and a couple of hints) to get you started. Cheers, Kai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog1984 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 What is the best way to "save" a blown corner? I've read TOTW2 and am gradually working through it while riding (mostly around the Mulholland area). Most of the time I'll do OK, sometimes I'll do very good. Occasionally, I'll miss and apex too soon, mostly on slight hills in tighter corners. What I usually end up in is: 1) Line running wide (natural end ~5ft outside the lane) 2) Modest lean angle left "in reserve" ( some cornering clearance to the kickstand , probably near the limit for the tires & Gs I have available without falling over) 3) Rock wall on the outside edge of the lane 4) 3-6s reaction time available before I go "out" 5) throttle rolling on 6) bike balanced front/back What is the best way to handle this? I don't feel comfortable rolling on the throttle much more, and I don't want to hit the wall. Currently what I'm doing is focusing on the exit of the turn where I want to go, breathing & loosening up, standing the bike up enough to gain more traction, scrubbing speed with both brakes, then leaning back down while trying to keep the line tight. Is there a better way to handle this? I don't mind scrapping the kickstand as long as it doesn't throw the bike out of control. The best way to handle it is of course not to miss the apex in the first place - but that doesn't help you much now does it? More seriously: looking at the exit of the turn, keeping loose is a good start. You write that you stand the bike up and brake. First, could you explain why you do this? Standing the bike up (and braking) will only get you closer to the outside wall! Are you are maximum available lean when this happens? - If not, how could you utilize this? Would there be another way to tighten your line? - could you possibly do this by transferring a little bit of weight to the front? How? The dangers of added lean and throttle have been discussed here several time (several films on youtube to demonstrate it too), so what options do you have to avoid this? Yeah, no easy answers but a bit of food for thought (and a couple of hints) to get you started. Cheers, Kai Generally, I'm not right at max lean, but the 5-10% I have left isn't (seemingly) enough to bring my arc all the way back into the lane. Standing the bike up: since I'm using most of the available traction for cornering, I partially stand the bike up for extra traction and then smoothly but quickly scrub off 5-10mph of speed before dropping it again. I could brake leaned over, but not sure where the breaking point for the tires is. I understand the part where standing the bike up gets me closer to the wall, but I'm trading a little space during braking for a much tighter line afterwards. The frustration is trying to figure out: once I recognize a moderately bad entry, how do I tighten up my line those extra few feet? FWIW, I have scrapped the kickstand during a "good" turn in the snake and ended up trading a slightly wider line for 1/4" of clearance to the kickstand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 At what point in the turn do you realize that your entry is 'moderately bad'? During your turn-in, or halfway through the turn, or 2/3 of the way...? Also, do you have any idea what is causing the bad entry in the first place? Is it drifting into the turn early, slow steering rate, late look-in, high entry speed? Or something else? Obviously preventing the problem is a lot easier than fixing it after the fact! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 IMO the best way to fix your problem would be to head out to one of your local tracks and eliminate the wall, along with a numerous host of other variables, from the entire equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog1984 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 At what point in the turn do you realize that your entry is 'moderately bad'? During your turn-in, or halfway through the turn, or 2/3 of the way...? Also, do you have any idea what is causing the bad entry in the first place? Is it drifting into the turn early, slow steering rate, late look-in, high entry speed? Or something else? Obviously preventing the problem is a lot easier than fixing it after the fact! 90%+ is due to simply misreading the turn- only "seeing" the immediate apex area, missing a decreasing radius, and/or misjudging camber/grade. Usually I realize 0.5s after I've committed and apexed when I see my line not going where I need to. Usually I'm pretty good on reading the turns & TOTW2 is helping with that; there's always 1 or 2 turns out of the 200+ I do every week where my mind wanders or I see what I'm expecting to see, etc... Still, one bad turn is enough to ruin my entire day I should mention that most of these turns are hairpins or partially blind 90+ degree turns where I'm only sighting the turn briefly during the approach or out of my peripheral vision before committing. Mostly this section of Mulholland. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mulholland+highway+kanaan+dune&hl=en&ll=34.102495,-118.794479&spn=0.017626,0.042272&sll=37.230328,-95.712891&sspn=34.473961,86.572266&hq=kanaan+dune&hnear=Mulholland+Hwy,+Los+Angeles,+California&t=m&z=15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Two comments: - First, if you're going fast enough to scrape (semi)hard parts on public roads then you are (I my very humble and personal opinion) going too fast, because it leaves very little room for error (as you've found out). - Secondly, you don't mention whether you're using hangout to improve your ground clearance. I'll have to assume you are - if not, starting doing that but again, please see point one. At the risk of sounding old and condescending: "If you want to go faster, take it to the track." (closing credit of the movie "Faster", by Mark Neale) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 This sounds very familiar to me. I have even scraped the engine covers regularly on the road on some bikes. And suffered the panic action of hitting the brakes mid-corner or while entering the corner because I knew/thought I was going to fast. I also have done a lot of permanent damage to my body, so listen to what khp is suggesing! The road is not the place to race. But OTOH, if you have this urge to go hard on the road, it's nigh on impossible to resist. I know it took me more than 30 years and numerous hard crashes to start slowing down. Now, back to what you describe, it sounds to me like a lack of confidence. Those situations are the ones you can avoid, simply by looking up ahead and lean the bike a little more. Easy to say, hard to do. Especially if you are not totally confident with your bike. I have had bikes where this never happened, and I have had bikes that fired my SRs in just about every corner. Lack of confidence, like not knowing when your tyres will run out of traction, is the pits and both make you slower and more likely to suffer an accident. There are also the times when you have decked everything; pegs, stands, exhaust and engine cover - and start levelling the tyres off the ground. If you have a little room, standing it up, brake hard and continue will usually save the day. At least it doesn't help to lean it over further Finally, you have the corners that you blow completely, where you have to brake hard for as long as you can and must even continue to brake all around the corner to the exit in order to make it. Note that on a perfect surface you still have 85% of the grip available for braking when leaned over 35 degrees, so as long as you're not on the very edge of the tyre you have a surprising amount of grip left for slowing down. Personally, I think you should slow down a little on your ride, give yourself a bit more room for errors. Go in a little slower and start accelerating sooner. You will be about as quick as you are now, if not quicker, with a lot less risk and drama. And since you'll be more relaxed, you will also be better equipped to deal with the unexpected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 sounds like ur charging the turns, using a wrong turn in point , suffering form a slow flick rate or a mixture of all 3... bad suspension and poor maintenance might compound the problem too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gr8Dane Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 The Snake is just about the worst place to be hot rodding the bike. Not just because most of the corners are blind, but also there is precious little room for mistakes. Fueling the danger factor are all the yahoo's out there doing what you are doing. Having said that, it's a fun road, but you really ought to take it to the track. Since you're obviously local, shoot me a PM and we can go ride somewhere much safer. If you have or can borrow a go-pro, we could shoot some video so you can see what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog1984 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I guess I should clarify. As Gr8Dane said, most of the corners in the snake are blind to some degree (check out street view). What I'm running into is when I'm riding the Pace through the corners (8/10 of max street effort, so about 7/10 of all-out), and coming up to a corner, I'll "read" it as a 90 degree turn and plan my line accordingly; however, once I hit the apex I see it's actually say a 150 degree turn and my bike- although perfectly on a out-in-out line for a 90 degree turn- is out of position to smoothly finish the full 150 degrees and I end upstanding up, scrubbing speed, and "wasting" the corner. What I'd like to do is see if there's a way to "save" those corners and finish the turn smoothly. Ideally, I'd go to the track to figure it out, but $ is kinda tight right now. If I was getting outside my safety comfort/competence zone, I'd back off more; right now I'm just trying to find better lines through the corners. FWIW, I don't use much hangoff (body issues), and the kickstand scrapping was due to a camber change in the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 What bike do you ride? And again the answer to a graceful end to your corner is slower entrance and faster exits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I once I hit the apex I see it's actually say a 150 degree turn and my bike- although perfectly on a out-in-out line for a 90 degree turn- is out of position to smoothly finish the full 150 degrees and I end upstanding up, scrubbing speed, and "wasting" the corner. Sounds like you either need to wait until you can see the actual shape of the corner and use a later turnpoint on those long decreasing radius turns, or else ride the corners as double apex which means doing what you are doing - slow down and turn it again. The former would be the safer choice! Keep in mind rnickey mouse is up there with a camera, keep it slow and safe or you might end up on YouTube!!!! You can also use vanishing point to help you see what the corner is doing ahead of you - a quick forum search should help you find a great explanation of how that works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gr8Dane Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 What kind of bike do you ride? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog1984 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 What kind of bike do you ride? Bandit 600 with Pirelli Diablo Rosso II tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.