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Pirelli Replacement Tires

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Coming to Barber for classes on 31 May/1 Jun and bringing my Panigale which is fitted with OEM Pirelli Supercorsa SP V2's. Frankly, they are in very good shape, but I'm not sure they would meet the CSS 90% standard. I'd like to take advantage of the student discount on the Dunlop Q2's, but are Q2's available in my size(s): Front - 120/70-17; Rear - 200/55-17) (Ducati Traction Control (DTC) system is calibrated only for the exact size of the Pirelli V2's.) Alternatively, If I bring a set of new Pirelli's, will CSS techs mount them for me upon arrival if mine don't pass inspection?

 

Appreciate any and all responses!

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The Q2 front, 120/70-17 is widely available and the school always has had them on hand when I've trained with them. The Q2 rear, as I understand, is available as a 200/50-17, vice a 200/55. I've no idea what a 200/50 Dunlop would do to your handling compared to a 200/55 Pirelli. Anyway, at the school I only recall seeing 180/55-17 and 190/55-17 but they might have the 200s hidden away. Your best bet I think is for you to call the school and talk with the office about your options.

 

You can get tires mounted during the school but time is the main obstacle. Will, the chief mechanic, stays pretty busy so you'd probably want to make arrangements in advance and arrive early. Another question to ask the office staff...

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Thanks, Brad! Still searching/querying other forums about effects of the 200/55 vs 200/50 difference on the Panigale DTC.

 

The Q2 front, 120/70-17 is widely available and the school always has had them on hand when I've trained with them. The Q2 rear, as I understand, is available as a 200/50-17, vice a 200/55. I've no idea what a 200/50 Dunlop would do to your handling compared to a 200/55 Pirelli. Anyway, at the school I only recall seeing 180/55-17 and 190/55-17 but they might have the 200s hidden away. Your best bet I think is for you to call the school and talk with the office about your options.

 

You can get tires mounted during the school but time is the main obstacle. Will, the chief mechanic, stays pretty busy so you'd probably want to make arrangements in advance and arrive early. Another question to ask the office staff...

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As for any electronic system (ES) , the tire is mapped , hence if you want to optimize the whole bike's ES , you'll have to get a map catered to the tire.

 

I know BMW, which makes S1000RR's , provide different maps for different approved tires by different manufactureres.

 

Ducati is now owned by Audi , so you can hope they come out with maps for the Q2's.

 

But i'd say stick to the stock pirellis first , because im not sure if Ducati has made maps for Q2s yet.

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ES mapped for different tyres ... :blink:

 

Wow, this is getting too complicated for me. I just wanna ride :)

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Ducati only has maps for the Pirelli tires. It is optimized for those tires though others will work with moderate success.

 

You /can/ get an ecu map for 3 other race slick tires (Dunlop etc) but you will be hard pressed to get that module. It is for superstock racing and you need to find a ducati corse dealer who is willing to order it

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These ES's sounds like garbage to me. I'll stick with Honda who clearly believes traction should be managed by the rider, not a computer. To date I don't think they offer any type of TC on any of their bikes... just how it should be. All these computer-aided systems will never be as good at their jobs as a skilled pilot, IMO.

 

Where's Ducati at in the world championship anyway... oh yeah, trying not to get beat by CRT bikes in one and still *HOPING* for a race win in the other. LOL. IMO prototype racing shows the true engineering ability of a company and Ducati doesn't have it.

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It would be an interesting exercise to review Lorenzo's record post v. pre traction control. I seem to remember that he used to high side a lot but once he was able to stay in the saddle for the entire race his record improved significantly. I could be wrong...

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These ES's sounds like garbage to me. I'll stick with Honda who clearly believes traction should be managed by the rider, not a computer. To date I don't think they offer any type of TC on any of their bikes... just how it should be. All these computer-aided systems will never be as good at their jobs as a skilled pilot, IMO.

 

Where's Ducati at in the world championship anyway... oh yeah, trying not to get beat by CRT bikes in one and still *HOPING* for a race win in the other. LOL. IMO prototype racing shows the true engineering ability of a company and Ducati doesn't have it.

 

Racing grade traction control can help reduce tire wear by as much as 20% ...(ducati DTC is NOT race grade too intrusive for races ; Aprilla RSV4 / Nemesis aftermarket ones are...)

 

Fuel injected bikes that run with the aid of a computer are ES too ... it depends on how much control you want and how seamless its implemented.

 

 

IMHO...

Championships are all or nothing and with only bridgestone as the sole tire provider for motogp.... its as good as dead ; monopoly does not promote competition or breed competetiveness...

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True, Ducati are not having 'the best of times' ... for the moment. Given time and development, though, I'm confident they'll be winning again. Competition makes for good ebb and flow of the top marques - like Honda! All bikes, all good.

These ES's sounds like garbage to me. I'll stick with Honda who clearly believes traction should be managed by the rider, not a computer. To date I don't think they offer any type of TC on any of their bikes... just how it should be. All these computer-aided systems will never be as good at their jobs as a skilled pilot, IMO.

 

Where's Ducati at in the world championship anyway... oh yeah, trying not to get beat by CRT bikes in one and still *HOPING* for a race win in the other. LOL. IMO prototype racing shows the true engineering ability of a company and Ducati doesn't have it.

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After doing further research and reading the much-appreciated comments here, I'm going to stick with the OEM Pirelli's - at least until (or if) Ducati develop different maps for other tires. Thanks for the tip on the superstock ECU, anthem, but I'm not at a level right now where I want or need to pursue this option. Agree with comments that traction control and other electronic systems can't completely replace skilled riding ... but isn't it comforting to know that if you screw up, it may not necessarily result in a binned bike! Hey, that's why I'm coming to CSS ... to become a more skilled rider!

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It would be an interesting exercise to review Lorenzo's record post v. pre traction control. I seem to remember that he used to high side a lot but once he was able to stay in the saddle for the entire race his record improved significantly. I could be wrong...

 

AFAIK, Jorge have had the pleasure of TC since he entered MotoGP? I think they even had some crude TC systems dating back to the late 90s on the fuel injected 500 gp bikes, but I could be wrong. However, TC has become far more sophisticated. A lot more. And it clearly help riders stay on. Jorge's riding style have evolved as well. Some coach here mentioned that he went flying from adding lean and throttle at the same time. I cannot tell, don't have enough knowledge.

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I'll stick with Honda who clearly believes traction should be managed by the rider, not a computer. To date I don't think they offer any type of TC on any of their bikes... just how it should be.

 

The ST1100 Pan European got TC about 20 years ago.

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May 6, 2013

 

Repsol Media Press Release:

 

Today the Repsol Honda Team were back on track in Jerez after yesterday’s fantastic 1-2 at the GP of Spain.

 

Marc solved some issues he had in the front with his bike from the weekend, and worked on some setup changes, again finding some improvement. He then spent some time on the electronics with different mappings and collected data working with a different suspension setup.

Honda is well invested in electronics in MotoGP.

 

The production CBR1000RR is notably lacking in electronics. By comparison, Aprilia, BMW, Kawasaki, Ducati all have extensive electronics packages for their superbikes. Perhaps this is a contributing factor in those teams having much recent success in World Superbike, whereas Honda has achieved just four race wins since the beginning of the 2011 season. Food for thought...

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well it's just my opinion after all. To each their own. For my riding (street riding) if i find myself so close to the limit that I'm wishing for TC I'm doing it wrong.

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well it's just my opinion after all. To each their own. For my riding (street riding) if i find myself so close to the limit that I'm wishing for TC I'm doing it wrong.

 

There are pro's and con's

 

I'm pretty sure that the pro's outweight the con's alot ; there wouldnt be S1000RR's at the school otherwise...

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KTK_ACE,

 

I am sure when trying to learn people find themselves closer to the limit then they'd like and I do feel that when anyone is going to flirt with spending all $10 in a corner all the help they can get is welcomed. As suggested in all of Keith's books I make it a point to NEVER get close to 'going broke' in a corner and risking getting broken. As I do not race but do attend a few trackdays I *TRY* to keep the same attitude on the track as I'm not going for prize money and I'm a firm believer that the biggest win you can get at a track is walking away at the end of the day with an intact bike, body, and wallet and making amazing memories.

 

For me, the need is just not there. I also feel that for 95% of sport bike purchasers the need isn't there either. I guess it's cool to have all the bells and whistles of Checa and Hayden for some. Just not me. I'm not cool.

 

I would find it frustrating as a customer to be severely limited in tire choice by my bike. I would also hazard a guess that most of the owners of a spiffy new Duc with this type of fairly obscure limitation are unaware how their tire profile is going to affect their TC and will happily make their machine more dangerous without even knowing it on a 'sticky' set of Michi's or Bridgestones or whatever their cronies deem to be the newest flavor of choice when it comes to rubber.

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KTK_ACE,

 

I am sure when trying to learn people find themselves closer to the limit then they'd like and I do feel that when anyone is going to flirt with spending all $10 in a corner all the help they can get is welcomed. As suggested in all of Keith's books I make it a point to NEVER get close to 'going broke' in a corner and risking getting broken. As I do not race but do attend a few trackdays I *TRY* to keep the same attitude on the track as I'm not going for prize money and I'm a firm believer that the biggest win you can get at a track is walking away at the end of the day with an intact bike, body, and wallet and making amazing memories.

 

For me, the need is just not there. I also feel that for 95% of sport bike purchasers the need isn't there either. I guess it's cool to have all the bells and whistles of Checa and Hayden for some. Just not me. I'm not cool.

 

I would find it frustrating as a customer to be severely limited in tire choice by my bike. I would also hazard a guess that most of the owners of a spiffy new Duc with this type of fairly obscure limitation are unaware how their tire profile is going to affect their TC and will happily make their machine more dangerous without even knowing it on a 'sticky' set of Michi's or Bridgestones or whatever their cronies deem to be the newest flavor of choice when it comes to rubber.

 

I don't think its a cool factor or not. Having it there while learning, riding, training, etc is a /good/ thing. Not sure why anyone would argue with that. You aren't going to be perfect all the time and having a small safety blanket is generally a "good thing". When the instructors ask you to push it and you're just not quite as smooth the first few times and slightly "over do" it - having traction control there is again - a "good thing". if you don't want to use it - turn it off. But saying that any improvement technologically is garbage and there should not be electronic aids is bordering on absurd. Thats like saying - we should strip ABS out of cars (and bikes), and take traction control our of cars too - lets all go back to no electronic aids for ANYBODY because thats the way everyone should ride/drive/etc.

 

Now, in terms of tire choices - other tires do work. They just aren't "optimized" by the manufacturer. If you don't like it you certainly don't have to buy it. And its definitely not obscure - its pretty obvious as just about every panigale owner I've ever come across knows that Ducati recommends the Supercorsa SP's on the bike. They do have a few other track day tires (SC0/1/2) profiles on their as well. But you do have choices in other tires - just they don't endorse them.

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I do believe most every track day organization maintains a "Rain or Shine" policy, I haven't yet had the pleasure of attending a wet track day, damn the weather here, but I'm pretty sure your chances of "winning" a wet track day as you describe it Thomas goes up significantly with a little help from all those whizbang gadgets they stuff in motorcycle's these days. Considering that the average 1000CC sportbike has somewhere in the neighborhood of 180HP these days I personally think its a damn good thing they are putting traction control and ABS and whatever else they invent in them or the statistics of first time motorcyclists in single vehicle accidents would IMO be significantly higher. Having ridden the school S1000's around SoW before I'm fairly certin I managed to spin up the back tire and engage the traction control at least 2x, both times I was exiting a corner at a pretty decent lean angle and just rolled on the gas a little bit more then I should have, I didn't whack the throttle open just rolled it on a little more than the tire could take and the TC stepped in and gently patted me on the pack as if to say "whoa there fella, this is where the limit is". I believe if you're looking for a new bike without TC these days you're down to 3 options, the Honda, Suzuki, and the KTM. I'd like to point out that in the World SuperStock 1000 series thus far Honda and Suzuki have a whopping 6 and 5 points respectively while the other 3 manufactures in the series are in the 55-60 point range.

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One more question on this topic for CSS staff: I purchased a new set of Pirellis and wanted to know if I can have them mounted Thu afternoon (5/30) when I arrive? I have F/R paddock stands & tools, so I'll be able to dismount the wheels myself. Thanks!

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The tire size is not exact from manufacture to manufacturer and from model to model. So a 200/55 OEM Pirelli my not be the same exact size as the race 200/55 Pirelli or the 200/55 Dunlop Q2. The size on the sidewall is not the exact diameter.

 

I know that the Dunlop D211GPA 190/60 DOT and the KR448/KR449 Dunlop N-Tec Slicks 200/55 are the same diameters as teh Pirelli, and have been used with no issues on the Panigale. By going to the Dunlop you will get the "Dunlop Feel", top of the line N-Tec traction and the enhanced durability that comes with the Dunlop.

 

Also consider that the TC on the bike has a "Window" or workability. They do not make TC to work under a very strict ridged diameter tire. This is because as the lean angle of the bike changes the rolling radius will change and as the tire pressure changes so will the rolling radius change . Thus if they programmed it with a tight ridged "Window" it would not work as the bike leaned side to side, or if the tire presser was slightly changed. As long as you get a tire that is very close in diameter you will be fine. No need to over think this one.

 

Also consider Pirelli and Ducati are both Italian make and they tend to recommend each others products. Same with BMW, they only recommend the Metzeler and the Conti tires (all 3 companies are German companies). Not saying its a conspiracy, but it does make sense that if you going to "Certify" one tire, it will likely be the OEM or a company with a relationship.

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