How Important Is Dirt Training For A Racer?

[ktk_ace]

KTK,

 

at some point the skills and techniques you need to practice for street riding and for pushing the absolute limit of machinery around a race track start to diverge from one another. the thread is about practice and training for a "Racer" not a average rider, also there can be a world of difference between doing figure 8's in a parking lot or confined space and doing them on a real 1/2 mile dirt oval. Also just about every motorcycle shootout article I've read has had skilled riders stop faster with the ABS off than with it on. I would gladly remove the ABS from my new FJR if it were a option.

 

Tyler

I didnt know you could run 8's on a dirt bike on a dirt track until now , thats some new insight for me...

Maybe my idea of running 8's on asphalt was limiting my scope and view , thanks for the insights in your post!

 

 

[dkk]

I've never tried riding on the dirt but it's something I would love to do. Simply to become more comfortable with the idea of the bike sliding a bit and moving about beneath me.

[faffi]

 

How are you going to do/learn that on 8's? with no knowledge of overcoming SR's and a badly balanced bike + no knowledge of how the bike acts upon unwanted steering inputs , its very inefficient imho.

 

 

 

 

You should talk to Jorge Lorenzo and tell him he went about it all wrong. No wonder he only has 4 world titles

[ktk_ace]

 

How are you going to do/learn that on 8's? with no knowledge of overcoming SR's and a badly balanced bike + no knowledge of how the bike acts upon unwanted steering inputs , its very inefficient imho.

 

 

 

 

You should talk to Jorge Lorenzo and tell him he went about it all wrong. No wonder he only has 4 world titles

 

 

I rather talk to Casey Stoner if you ask me. Also 4 world titles.

 

But of course if you wanna be more scientific , I would love to interview all world champs who had dirt track experience , a broader view across never hurts

[tmckeen]

off the top of my head that list includes

 

King Kenny, Fast Freddie Spencer, Wayne Rainey, Eddie Lawson, Nicky Hayden, Casey Stoner, Marc Marquez

 

I'm sure that list is far from complete

 

 

From Casey Stoners Wikipedia page

 

"He competed in his first race was when he was four years old, in an under-nine years old race at the Mike Hatcher's dirt racing track on the Gold Coast of Australia. Between his very first race win at the age of six and the age of fourteen, Stoner won 41 dirt and long track titles and 70 state titles."

[Stroker]

 

With a bosch ABS system, though the factors you pointed out - Grade of Abs and how the rider uses and assists it are spot on.

 

The point i am trying to make is, the abs is a useful safety feature but not a substitute for proper skill and knowledge, on the street or track.

 

Besides, a system that is not upto scratch can cause further problems.

[csmith12]

 

^^^ yea

 

I wasn't advocating that anyone do that, it was meant more for the funnies.

 

I bought a used $100 200cc off brand dirt bike just to beat to death. It has taught me plenty that I used on the track for reasons Hotfoot has already mentioned above. The shotty suspension has me really relaxed on the street bike. I try not to crash my yami dirt bike too hard, parts are expensive when you need them often and broken bones hurt, even in dirt.

 

Yes, I knew that was meant mostly for entertainment. I had not yet seen your post, it popped up while I was typing my reply to Stroker.

 

Is that actually you in the photo?

 

 

Naw, that is not me but I would love to try that one day. Maybe on a bike that is older and cheaper.

 

Seriously though, I am in the dirt for the obvious reasons but for the subtle ones as well.

 

Staying frosty between races/track time.

Keeping visual skills on par.

Keeping decision making skills as fast as possible.

Keeping fitness and endurance high.

Keeping passing skills more "aggressive".

Trying to hit the rutting every time helps me with consistency.

 

I had an interesting thing happen to me last weekend. I blew a corner on the track and ended up in the grass runoff area. Normally when this happens to me, there is a "sharp" change in thinking. This time, there wasn't, the transition from tarmac to dirt was more blended together. Difficult to explain but totally cool to feel. As I took the "shortcut" from turn 2 to turn 5 lol, there was mud, bumps, the drain ditch and I still had to scrub off some speed/downshift, all the while keeping my head straight enough to not crash and reenter the track safely.

 

FUN!

[ktk_ace]

 

 

^^^ yea

 

I wasn't advocating that anyone do that, it was meant more for the funnies.

 

I bought a used $100 200cc off brand dirt bike just to beat to death. It has taught me plenty that I used on the track for reasons Hotfoot has already mentioned above. The shotty suspension has me really relaxed on the street bike. I try not to crash my yami dirt bike too hard, parts are expensive when you need them often and broken bones hurt, even in dirt.

 

Yes, I knew that was meant mostly for entertainment. I had not yet seen your post, it popped up while I was typing my reply to Stroker.

 

Is that actually you in the photo?

 

 

Naw, that is not me but I would love to try that one day. Maybe on a bike that is older and cheaper.

 

Seriously though, I am in the dirt for the obvious reasons but for the subtle ones as well.

 

Staying frosty between races/track time.

Keeping visual skills on par.

Keeping decision making skills as fast as possible.

Keeping fitness and endurance high.

Keeping passing skills more "aggressive".

Trying to hit the rutting every time helps me with consistency.

 

I had an interesting thing happen to me last weekend. I blew a corner on the track and ended up in the grass runoff area. Normally when this happens to me, there is a "sharp" change in thinking. This time, there wasn't, the transition from tarmac to dirt was more blended together. Difficult to explain but totally cool to feel. As I took the "shortcut" from turn 2 to turn 5 lol, there was mud, bumps, the drain ditch and I still had to scrub off some speed/downshift, all the while keeping my head straight enough to not crash and reenter the track safely.

 

FUN!

 

 

 

 

Im also interested in knowing the pros AND cons of dirt riding in relation to racing , esp on tarmac/asphalt surfaces.

 

WHo better to ask than someone who does both??

 

Does it give you arm pump on the track later as dirt tracking makes use of a lot of upper body movements?

[faffi]

The only con mentioned by stars like Rossi and Marquez etc. who do a lot of MX and oval dirt riding to keep their skills honed, is the risk of injury.

[Stroker]

Im also interested in knowing the pros AND cons of dirt riding in relation to racing , esp on tarmac/asphalt surfaces.

 

In addition to this, i would also like to know what aspect of dirt riding if improved, benefits what aspect of your track riding.

[faffi]

A long list of claimed pros:

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/10/30/learning-in-the-dirt/

 

Colin Edwards:

I am a street rider/racer, will a dirt camp really help me?

 

A majority of our clients are road racers. Having a full understanding of just what the motorcycle is doing underneath you is a skill all riders look for. At our camp you will be experiencing slick dirt tracks which are meant for truly finding the limit of grip. When grip is lost and then gained, we as a rider find the true understanding of bike control, throttle control and proper inputs for the motorcycle. Riding a motorcycle that is constantly moving around underneath you is “feeling” we want you to experience and get a grasp of at the camp. It is all about “feel” and all of this immediately transfers to the pavement.

 

___

 

Marc Marquez - Indy MotoGP Teleconference on August 12th, 2013

(excerpt from SuperbikePlanet.com):

Q. I know that you've been training with dirt track bikes, something that a lot of American riders would be interested in. Why are you using dirt track methods to train?

MARC MARQUEZ: You know, when I was younger, I like it so much and I enjoy it a lot. I'm already with 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years old, I did many laps on this track bike. And then, you know, in Spain, in America, it's more popular the dirt track but here in Spain, not so much.

But now this season, I say, OK, I want to start again with the dirt track, because I like it and I enjoy it. And then you feel the bike a little bit different, because you're going on the bike, you're going in the corner so fast, and then you need to stop, pick up the bike and go. It's more or less like in what you use in MotoGP.

Also, the attention in corner, you need to control the slide and you need to control gas, and basically, I think it's quite good because then you feel a little bit different, and also the reason maybe is because I enjoy it a lot.

[csmith12]

 

 

 

^^^ yea

 

I wasn't advocating that anyone do that, it was meant more for the funnies.

 

I bought a used $100 200cc off brand dirt bike just to beat to death. It has taught me plenty that I used on the track for reasons Hotfoot has already mentioned above. The shotty suspension has me really relaxed on the street bike. I try not to crash my yami dirt bike too hard, parts are expensive when you need them often and broken bones hurt, even in dirt.

 

Yes, I knew that was meant mostly for entertainment. I had not yet seen your post, it popped up while I was typing my reply to Stroker.

 

Is that actually you in the photo?

 

 

Naw, that is not me but I would love to try that one day. Maybe on a bike that is older and cheaper.

 

Seriously though, I am in the dirt for the obvious reasons but for the subtle ones as well.

 

Staying frosty between races/track time.

Keeping visual skills on par.

Keeping decision making skills as fast as possible.

Keeping fitness and endurance high.

Keeping passing skills more "aggressive".

Trying to hit the rutting every time helps me with consistency.

 

I had an interesting thing happen to me last weekend. I blew a corner on the track and ended up in the grass runoff area. Normally when this happens to me, there is a "sharp" change in thinking. This time, there wasn't, the transition from tarmac to dirt was more blended together. Difficult to explain but totally cool to feel. As I took the "shortcut" from turn 2 to turn 5 lol, there was mud, bumps, the drain ditch and I still had to scrub off some speed/downshift, all the while keeping my head straight enough to not crash and reenter the track safely.

 

FUN!

 

 

 

 

Im also interested in knowing the pros AND cons of dirt riding in relation to racing , esp on tarmac/asphalt surfaces.

 

WHo better to ask than someone who does both??

 

Does it give you arm pump on the track later as dirt tracking makes use of a lot of upper body movements?

 

 

Arm pump? No, not normally for me anyway. Do I feel it in my legs more, you betcha.

 

Everything comes with some sort of cost. Cons to dirt for me, I am sure there are more but this is what I can think of off the cuff.

 

My lap times go down if the span between track time is too long. Especially in the winter. ie. (months of dirt riding only) This year I went to JenningsGP in Feb. to combat that effect with pretty good success.

I normally maintain a greater distance between other riders while on dirt (general trail riding) (except while passing) vs. getting much closer while on track.

In open forest trails vs. dirt track, predicting a riders line is much harder for me, this has me holding back and 2nd guessing some track riders that haven't found a comfortable line through a corner.

The overall feel of the dirt bike is different. The first few sessions on the r6 is spent adjusting to the slower turning rate and general ergonomics.

While in the open forest, the sense of speed is greatly exaggerated for me due to trees and other obstacles in peripheral vision.

 

I am ALWAYS worried about injury.

[Stroker]

I wonder if flat tracking can help more than trail riding for improving track times?

[Hotfoot]

It seems like it would, just because it would allow you to focus your attention on speed, traction and controlling the bike much more than on trail where terrain and obstacles and other factors would take away some of your attention.

 

I'm sure each of them would have benefits - trail riding taught me a lot about not focusing too much on the surface (e.g., not staring down at rock I didn't want to hit) and about allowing the bike to move around underneath me without getting tense and using the back brake, etc.

[faffi]

Monaco practicing - way impressive

[csmith12]

Besides... you never know what you will see in the forest.

 

[YellowDuck]

Awww, mannnnn!