Eskimo Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 When I'm doing everything right, this doesn't happen, but during a race, you get a little tired and maybe don't do everything right..maybe chasing down the guy in front of you, so you push a little harder.. you're in a long "bowl" type of corner.. Throttle is good, maybe just a touch of acceleration vs. being neutral, but you're just going a little faster than before, and the front starts to slide. Not crazy, just the front lets you know it's really not happy. Before CSS, I would have rolled off the throttle, upsetting the chassis at the very least. Now, I pick the bike up just a touch and simultaneously push my upper body further down to try and keep my line. BUT, is there anything else I should be doing if/when this happens? This does only seem to happen to be in long corners when I try to increase my pace or realize I slowed down too much going in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Great question - I look forward to reading the educated answers. I had similar a experience in my first race season, in exactly the circumstances you describe (in a race, actually second of two back-to-back races, a bit tired, pushing a little). My highly skilled reaction was to freak out, roll off somewhat, lose several places on the corner exit and then use the next two laps trying to collect myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Your answer can be found by knowing what is causing the front to push to begin with. So if a rider pushes their limits to corner speed, what would be a common side effect (or sr) of that? Chopping it has already been mentioned but can it be more subtle? Would a loaded front and cause pushing? Let me give you a hint by asking another question; Is good throttle control defined as "maybe just a touch"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I think what you are getting at is that if we are in the corner faster than normal, we may not be applying enough throttle to effect the proper 60/40 weight distribution front / rear, thus overloading the front tire and causing the push. So the solution is...gas it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 So the solution is...gas it? Well sure... but gas it with control ya know and with regard to riding conditions. "The standard solution to a pushing front end, is getting back on the gas." Let's recap what we have so far; Don't chop it Pick the bike up a bit Put more body mass to the inside Ensure good throttle control Now let's think about being tired on lap 9 of a 12 lap sprint or minute 41 during your endurance race. What other common reaction/sr comes and may creep up on a rider as their core get's tired and will it cause slides? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eskimo Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Now let's think about being tired on lap 9 of a 12 lap sprint or minute 41 during your endurance race. What other common reaction/sr comes and may creep up on a rider as their core get's tired and will it cause slides? Not using all my reference points.. Bad body position.. By the way, and maybe this is thread-jacking my own thread, but I mentioned a bowl turn because those are the only ones where I feel you really can't follow the textbook "once you open the throttle, smoothly & continuously open it", but have to hold a 'maintenance throttle' because you stay at max lean for a little while. Am I wrong there? (thinking about the lightbulb, t9 at NJMP thunderbolt as an example) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Not using all my reference points.. Bad body position.. By the way, and maybe this is thread-jacking my own thread, but I mentioned a bowl turn because those are the only ones where I feel you really can't follow the textbook "once you open the throttle, smoothly & continuously open it", but have to hold a 'maintenance throttle' because you stay at max lean for a little while. Am I wrong there? (thinking about the lightbulb, t9 at NJMP thunderbolt as an example) I don't see it as you're highjacking your own thread. When tired, not using reference points is a good one, I feel there is something more common though. If you're not holding on with your core/legs, what does a rider have to hang on with? Lemme ask you this. On those long sweepers, bowl corners and other hairpins, feeling idle with nothing to do for a few moments? Would adding a few more reference points to help stay on line give you the confidence to keep a steady throttle roll? And speaking of lines... What is the #1 reason for throttle issues mid corner? If you're not hitting your reference points how do you know you're on a good line? There are many lines through a corner, the good ones follow rule #1. Yep, easy to lose sight of things near the end of the race, especially while focusing extra attention on the rider ahead, setting up the next pass... all while tired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Not using all my reference points.. Bad body position.. By the way, and maybe this is thread-jacking my own thread, but I mentioned a bowl turn because those are the only ones where I feel you really can't follow the textbook "once you open the throttle, smoothly & continuously open it", but have to hold a 'maintenance throttle' because you stay at max lean for a little while. Am I wrong there? (thinking about the lightbulb, t9 at NJMP thunderbolt as an example) I don't see it as you're highjacking your own thread. When tired, not using reference points is a good one, I feel there is something more common though. If you're not holding on with your core/legs, what does a rider have to hang on with? Lemme ask you this. On those long sweepers, bowl corners and other hairpins, feeling idle with nothing to do for a few moments? Would adding a few more reference points to help stay on line give you the confidence to keep a steady throttle roll? And speaking of lines... What is the #1 reason for throttle issues mid corner? If you're not hitting your reference points how do you know you're on a good line? There are many lines through a corner, the good ones follow rule #1. Yep, easy to lose sight of things near the end of the race, especially while focusing extra attention on the rider ahead, setting up the next pass... all while tired. To add to the above - if you come in too fast or too slow on the entry, what happens to your throttle control? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 To add to the above - if you come in too fast or too slow on the entry, what happens to your throttle control? Thanks I am always surprised when I look at my lap times from races. The fastest ones are almost always at the end, when we ride at our worst or the most mistakes happen. How we make it all work always brings a smile to my face. EDIT: Not sure what is going on with this post. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eskimo Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 When tired, not using reference points is a good one, I feel there is something more common though. If you're not holding on with your core/legs, what does a rider have to hang on with? Lemme ask you this. On those long sweepers, bowl corners and other hairpins, feeling idle with nothing to do for a few moments? Would adding a few more reference points to help stay on line give you the confidence to keep a steady throttle roll? And speaking of lines... What is the #1 reason for throttle issues mid corner? If you're not hitting your reference points how do you know you're on a good line? There are many lines through a corner, the good ones follow rule #1. Yep, easy to lose sight of things near the end of the race, especially while focusing extra attention on the rider ahead, setting up the next pass... all while tired. Oh yeah, duhh.. hanging on with my hands instead of keeping a light grip (which also can affect how smoothly I roll onto the throttle) I'm probably going against the teachings when I say this, but in the long bowls, when I'm doing it "right" (and by that I mean, nailed my points, and I'm carrying as much speed as I think both tires will hold), I *think* that if I was able to roll onto the throttle, then I was going too slow into the corner to begin with? I have added another 2 RP's in T9, (much like you said) to know that I'm on the right line. Am I that incorrect in thinking that (only in long corners), if I could be rolling on the throttle, then I'm going too slow, because I have no more lean to give, and have to stay on this particular line for another xx feet until I can begin the exit to the corner? I get the idea that in most corners, once you're done turning the bike, you should be starting your roll.. But... are you saying that I may be turning in too early, thereby shedding speed to get on the line I *think* is the correct one and carrying that speed (say, 50) around, when in fact, the fastest way though the corner might be making a bigger arc out of it, coming in faster, and only getting down to that 50mph speed for the split second between finishing the turn and exiting the turn? Dang.. if that's what you were getting at, I think the light bulb just clicked on. I hope it is, because I'm dying to try that out! #1 reason for throttle issues - being off-line? To add to the above - if you come in too fast or too slow on the entry, what happens to your throttle control? Answer short? it goes to ######. Better answer - when I come in too slow, I usually end up throttling too soon, which can have the tendency to run you wide if I'm able to resist the urge to speed up/slow down/speed up again! Coming in too fast - Usually, blow the turn in point, or at the least, miss the apex, keeping me off throttle too long, and can sometimes end up off throttle at the apex, which can lead to overloading the front. Close? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 When tired, not using reference points is a good one, I feel there is something more common though. If you're not holding on with your core/legs, what does a rider have to hang on with? Lemme ask you this. On those long sweepers, bowl corners and other hairpins, feeling idle with nothing to do for a few moments? Would adding a few more reference points to help stay on line give you the confidence to keep a steady throttle roll? And speaking of lines... What is the #1 reason for throttle issues mid corner? If you're not hitting your reference points how do you know you're on a good line? There are many lines through a corner, the good ones follow rule #1. Yep, easy to lose sight of things near the end of the race, especially while focusing extra attention on the rider ahead, setting up the next pass... all while tired. Oh yeah, duhh.. hanging on with my hands instead of keeping a light grip (which also can affect how smoothly I roll onto the throttle) I'm probably going against the teachings when I say this, but in the long bowls, when I'm doing it "right" (and by that I mean, nailed my points, and I'm carrying as much speed as I think both tires will hold), I *think* that if I was able to roll onto the throttle, then I was going too slow into the corner to begin with? I have added another 2 RP's in T9, (much like you said) to know that I'm on the right line. Am I that incorrect in thinking that (only in long corners), if I could be rolling on the throttle, then I'm going too slow, because I have no more lean to give, and have to stay on this particular line for another xx feet until I can begin the exit to the corner? I get the idea that in most corners, once you're done turning the bike, you should be starting your roll.. But... are you saying that I may be turning in too early, thereby shedding speed to get on the line I *think* is the correct one and carrying that speed (say, 50) around, when in fact, the fastest way though the corner might be making a bigger arc out of it, coming in faster, and only getting down to that 50mph speed for the split second between finishing the turn and exiting the turn? Dang.. if that's what you were getting at, I think the light bulb just clicked on. I hope it is, because I'm dying to try that out! #1 reason for throttle issues - being off-line? To add to the above - if you come in too fast or too slow on the entry, what happens to your throttle control? Answer short? it goes to ######. Better answer - when I come in too slow, I usually end up throttling too soon, which can have the tendency to run you wide if I'm able to resist the urge to speed up/slow down/speed up again! Coming in too fast - Usually, blow the turn in point, or at the least, miss the apex, keeping me off throttle too long, and can sometimes end up off throttle at the apex, which can lead to overloading the front. Close? Yes, good job - your posts show a good understanding of the techniques and it sounds like you have come up with a number of ideas to try, the next time you ride! To answer the question I think you asked in the thread above - if you have a long sweeping turn (not a decreasing radius), and the best way to get the IDEAL traction and suspension response from the bike is to follow Throttle Control Rule #1, then YES, you have to think about your entry speed and you have to NOT be too greedy with the throttle at the beginning. A common error in a LONG turn is to feel rushed to get on the throttle too much too soon, and then have to STOP rolling on (or even roll off) because you are accumulating too much speed for the turn, which can run you wide or overload the front - especially if you tense up on the bars at the same time. Getting the roll-on correct and consistent is a big challenge of long turns, but boy when you get it right they are FUN!!! Good job thinking this through, sounds like you have some good plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Thanks for the assist Hotfoot! #1 reason for throttle issues - being off-line? Ding, ding, ding! Winner, winner! So the refresh as requested; Don't chop it Pick the bike up a bit Put more body mass to the inside Ensure good throttle control Loosen up on the bars Hope it helps and best wishes for your next time out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchase Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Nothing to add here. But this is a great topic with lots of great info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lnewqban Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 .......... you're in a long "bowl" type of corner.. What a bowl corner is? This thread may help you as well: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3883 Fastest possible cornering: Enter slow, keep proper acceleration, leave fast. Keeping proper acceleration during the whole turn is more than an arbitrary rule: it keeps proper forward-aft weight distribution, proper suspension range, proper ground clearance, neutral steering. In other words: sacrificing entry speed for keeping acceleration is not a bad thing. Chapters 1 to 6 of TOTW 2 explain the physical reasons. How much? Around 0.1 to 0.2 G of acceleration = Constant increment of speed along the turn of 2.2 to 4.4 mph per each second that the bike is leaned and turning. "Smooth 5th gear roll-on in the 4000 ~ 6000 rpm range on pretty much anything above 600 c.c." Once you open that throttle, "it is rolled on evenly, smoothly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn." If the curve is too long or weird-shaped to keep this rule practical, then you split the curve into two or more sections. You enter each section slow and leave it fast, reduce lean angle, shave speed off, then repeat for the next section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 imperative to have a turn point that works too i might add. and consistency in entry speed and hitting the turn point with precision. 2-3 feet off or 10 mph too fast = you've blown it. sometimes just NOT rolling on the throttle (eg just holding it at a certain position) is enough to scrub off speed if your bike has somewhat heavy engine breaking / smaller displacement + big rider / in a corner at lean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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