Consistent vs Accurate Lines

[Jaybird180]

I'd been working on my accuracy. It seems that the product of that has been consistency. This means that I tend to get consistent placement on where I want to be, just not as accurate as I would like. I'm a foot or less from where I want to place my wheels, and it seems that closing that distance to apex for example is a battle with self.

Best I can come up with is that it's a vision deficiency but I don't know what to do to correct it. I latched onto a faster rider, but was just unable to duplicate the lines or keep enough pace to be able to follow for more than a few corners. But I did learn something by doing so. Looking for ideas of what I can try differently. Next trackday in 2 weeks.

[trueblue550]

I have this problem with some corners as well and I'm interested in hearing what the experts have to say. I would try transitioning visually from your turn in reference point to your apex reference point a bit earlier. Also try looking at the apex reference point a little longer until you're sure you are going to hit it, then transition to the exit reference point. 

 

[Lnewqban]

It could be that you are not following two fundamental rules of cornering:

1) Looking deep into the turn: You can only know that your trajectory is one foot off if you are looking close in front of your bike.

2) One steering for the whole turn: You may be adjusting your steering along the turn in order to achieve your goal trajectory.

Think of the unintended consequences that you are creating if you are doing so, like diversion of attention, disorientation, over-stressing the front tire, etc. 

The way I visualize cornering trajectory: to me it is like shooting a ball into the basketball hood from a distance, you feel the cross-wind, you estimate the distance and the angle, you gut-calculate the whole flight of the ball and then you impart your best directed push hoping for the best.  Sometimes you miss for little and sometimes you nail it.  

The hard mental, visual and calculation work in cornering happens prior the turn-in point, which is equivalent to the moment of actually pushing the ball.  Let the bike "fly" describing that natural arc, free of unnecessary minute steering inputs and lean angle adjustments.

Missing an apex for 12 inches may add a few feet to the corner's total trajectory, which is not a big difference for a bike that moves 88 feet per second (60 mph).  Distracting your attention from proper throttle control and from reference points and from spatial location may slow your bike much more.

[Jaybird180]

Thanks for chiming in.

 

Point #1

How do I know that I'm hitting my marks (or not) if I do not observe my results? Well to help solve the problem of diverted attention, I will mount my action camera to the bike and review the footage later that way I can focus more on what I'm doing IN THAT MOMENT.

I agree that I'm still working on moving my vision further away. I'm also working on smoothing my visual flow after so many years of snapping my head and eyes to the next point of interest. After a recent school I "got it" about visual flow.

Point #2:

Once I'm in the turn, I don't fight it with many-mini inputs I just try to get it next time around.  

[Jaybird180]

Yesterday I received in my email, a Keith Code article, Speed and Direction and I think the article struck a chord with regard to what I’m trying to solve. The article isn’t yet posted in the articles section, so it must be new. From it, this particular section seemed relevant and as I slept overnight I awoke with a different idea on how it applies to my current barrier

”Any rider's true skill level can only be measured by his ability to determine exactly WHERE to change or maintain speed and direction and execute the right AMOUNT of each.  There are no other components to skill.“

[Hotfoot]

Speaking of timing... something else to take a look at is exactly WHEN you crack the throttle on. If a rider is running a little bit wide a little before the apex (not able to make it to the desired apex) what could that tell you about the rider's throttle timing?

Next time you ride pay attention to when the throttle comes on - is the bike on its line (fully leaned and pointed in the direction you want it to go) before you start to roll on the gas?

 

[Jaybird180]

22 minutes ago, Hotfoot said:

Speaking of timing... something else to take a look at is exactly WHEN you crack the throttle on. If a rider is running a little bit wide a little before the apex (not able to make it to the desired apex) what could that tell you about the rider's throttle timing?

Next time you ride pay attention to when the throttle comes on - is the bike on its line (fully leaned and pointed in the direction you want it to go) before you start to roll on the gas?

 

I turn the gas on as soon as I'm done with the steering input. I do leave some turning margin. In this particular instance it was a new bike, new track and different tires so my confidence was low on knowing where where the roll limit was. I was conscious that I probably had lean angle reserve.

[Hotfoot]

What do you mean, when you say you leave some turning margin? 

[Jaybird180]

That was a typo on my part. I meant to say: I leave some lean angle margin.

Regarding my original issue: I think the solution could be:

The Two Step Drill

[trueblue550]

15 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:

I turn the gas on as soon as I'm done with the steering input.

My coach at Laguna Seca noticed I was getting on the throttle too early in the second part of turn 2. I told him the same thing, I begin a smooth, even, continuous roll on after steering is complete. He advised me that because a throttle roll-on tends to make a bike hold its line, I should begin roll-on when steering is complete and the bike is pointed where I want it to go. The little bit of extra time off the throttle did help me get a better line and drive out of the corner.

[Jaybird180]

Thank you. I think Hotfoot was getting at that same idea. I'll have a go at it.

 

Question: Are we saying that steering can be complete but yet the bike is not pointed in the desired direction?...there's a time delay between relaxing the steering input and bike on line???

[Hotfoot]

4 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:

Thank you. I think Hotfoot was getting at that same idea. I'll have a go at it.

 

Question: Are we saying that steering can be complete but yet the bike is not pointed in the desired direction?...there's a time delay between relaxing the steering input and bike on line???

Yes, it could be that you are at your desired lean angle (steering action complete) but not yet pointed in the direction you want the bike to go. Sometimes there is a pause as you wait for the bike to come around onto the desired line. Turn 2 at Laguna is a GREAT example of a turn where it is VERY easy to get on the gas a little too early in the second part of the turn and miss the apex - which is punished immediately upon the exit because it is tight and forces the rider to make a correction to avoid going off track.

It is also really easy to come on the throttle a little bit too early when chasing a faster rider, trying to catch up, or keep up.

[Jaybird180]

Okay. I’ll go out to specifically observe this. Thank you.

[Lnewqban]

4 hours ago, Hotfoot said:

Yes, it could be that you are at your desired lean angle (steering action complete) but not yet pointed in the direction you want the bike to go. Sometimes there is a pause as you wait for the bike to come around onto the desired line. Turn 2 at Laguna is a GREAT example of a turn where it is VERY easy to get on the gas a little too early in the second part of the turn and miss the apex - which is punished immediately upon the exit because it is tight and forces the rider to make a correction to avoid going off track.

It is also really easy to come on the throttle a little bit too early when chasing a faster rider, trying to catch up, or keep up.

Excellent post, Hotfoot.  ?

It very well explains the "throttle should be open as soon as possible" line in the book.

Prior reaching maximum lean or slidding state, the bike is always following the trajectory that the rider commands it to follow via steering and throttle.

Good visual skills help me with the spatial awareness regarding where the bike is located at any time in a succession of turns and helps me decide about the proper moments to brake, accelerate and turn in.

[Johnno down under]

A skill I learned as a young rider, is best explained by an anthropology text discussing the relationship between research and imagination. It spoke of “soft vision, hard focus”.  Ones hard focus is on the road well ahead, this is maintained while also allowing oneself soft vision out in the periphery of ones vision.

on your bike this means that one remains actively aware of what’s going on outside the focus of ones attention. Thus although my focus is often ( on rural roads) two corners ahead watching for oncoming vehicles, landslides and road debris. In my soft vision is placing me on the road, alert to surface and random animals walking out in my immediate viscinity. In terms of cornering it is my soft vision that marks my arrival at the turn in point already. I can tell by three or four inches whether I hit my mark. When navigating blind corners. The hard focus varies between 2000-300 metres ahead to the next corners, right down to 30 metres on those nasty closing radius blind corners. On those corners the eye follows the vanishing point alert to the need to radically change my chosen line. But.soft focus deals with all the little details of road placement. It is all very active and meditative, especially when I’m fully in the groove. Dodging unexpected sheep, and oncoming trucks that cut corners is handled almost entirely by the soft vision aspect. The hard focus in those instances looks to those avenues of escape that I spotted previously: hunting and tracking the gap. Hard focus turns my head. Soft vision looks everywhere else.

another comparison is player of ping pong, or boxers neither focuses on the ball, or the fist, they look hard at the opposing player, and  rely on soft vision to hit the ball or block the fist.

hope this helps those who get lost vision wise. 

[Jaybird180]

I watched for this tendency to get on the gas too soon and found I did that in a couple corners. Mind you: this is at a different track, but habits typically follow the rider until changed so it’s likely I’m doing this at other tracks and on other bikes.

Also, I found in Endurance racing this weekend that I need a method of prioritizing needs, addressing them and then going down the list.

[AdamZisa]

At Thunderhill west in T1 and T2 I was getting on the gas early. Same premise of "get on the gas as soon as your lean angle is set." But again, it's as soon as possible. I learned about scrubbing speed and setting lean angle and waiting until the bike is pointed to where I want it to go. Made such a difference. It felt slower, but then the adage of slow in, fast out came to mind. Can't go flying in there out of control. With the scrubbing speed and slower approach, I felt I was able to be more precise with where my front tire would go. 

On the road, I look wayyyyyy ahead and recognize that my perfect apex point or where I want my front tire to go may not be feasible due to traffic or other conditions. By looking in front of me, I can prepare with that hard focus you all referenced, and use the soft focus to see cars or other obstacles. I still make it through swiftly but I may miss the perfect apex point which to me on the street is OK. I would rather get through quickly and safely and know how to react/ fix my line in an emergency, rather than focus on a small point on the road. 

When racing, and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but if someone is blocking your apex, you cannot exactly hit that same spot 1-inch from the curbing every time. My opinion is that it is almost better to know how to handle that situation, how to adapt and realign yourself to pass them next time or to do what is safest. If you are going for best lap and no one is in front of you, then heck yeah I wanna hit that apex spot and be precise as heck!!! When someone is in the way though (intentionally or not) I would rather be accurate and confident to handle the situation. 

[Jaybird180]

1 hour ago, AdamZisa said:

When racing, and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but if someone is blocking your apex, you cannot exactly hit that same spot 1-inch from the curbing every time. My opinion is that it is almost better to know how to handle that situation, how to adapt and realign yourself to pass them next time or to do what is safest. If you are going for best lap and no one is in front of you, then heck yeah I wanna hit that apex spot and be precise as heck!!! When someone is in the way though (intentionally or not) I would rather be accurate and confident to handle the situation. 

There are defensive and offensive lines when racing. Tactical vs Strategic choices. Racecraft is the proper mixture of the two.

I once witnessed a rider on a slower bike hold off a faster bike by altering exit lines (not weaving) and beating him to the line FOR THE WIN.

[AdamZisa]

1 hour ago, Jaybird180 said:

There are defensive and offensive lines when racing. Tactical vs Strategic choices. Racecraft is the proper mixture of the two.

I once witnessed a rider on a slower bike hold off a faster bike by altering exit lines (not weaving) and beating him to the line FOR THE WIN.

NOW THATS A FEELING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!