techniques for finding the limit

[not so easy rider]

Hi guys, 

I spent 20 years with cars. Street, track, endless driving lessons for both and I probably already done a million kilometres on four wheels. This year I did my motorcycle license and I'm so hooked that I'm already thinking about selling my car ^^

I did one trackday and two safety courses, but there is one thing that I'm still puzzled about. How do I safely find the maximum corner speed and grip limit on a bike. 

 

When it comes to cars, there's this simple technique everyone uses on the track: Break earlier, turn in earlier and also get on the throttle earlier. This way the car will slightly understeer which is much more predictable and easier to control than snap oversteering after trailbraking into the corner too late or too hot. 

If your corner speed is 80mph you can pretty much make an educated guess that you are using 90% of your tire and the maximum corner speed for your car is about 85-90mph. You then can fine tune your braking and turn in by braking later and trail braking into the corner. 

 

I'm kind of confused regarding motor cycles, though. If you break early and crack the throttle open early, the damn thing doesn't turn in and you run wide on the exit especially when you overslow the entry. Understeering means losing the front and reducing throttle mid corner means upsetting the bike and risking a lowside by losing the backend. 

 

So is there a similar technique for bikes that I don't know of? How should you approach the limit on a bike in a safe and predictable way? Or is it just balls to the walls until you are coming in too hot and crash and then turn it down a notch?

 

 

Thanks very much

[Jaybird180]

With motorcycles there’s a mix of art and science. The more I think I understand the science the more art I discover when it comes to application.

I’m going to grab my popcorn on this one, but suffice to say that CSS doesn’t advocate an approach of “bin it and back off a notch”.

[not so easy rider]

Thanks for the condolences @Jaybird180 😅 I already asumed that there isn't a straight cut answer. I really wonder, though, how people practise cornering on the limit. There has to be something...otherwise even seasoned riders wouldn't be able to improve without crashing constantly. 

[Jaybird180]

When I started with CSS, I thought I was there for “improvement”. What I received was a removal of fundamentally flawed understandings and habits.

I now have a base from where I can grow.

If you remember when Jorge Lorenzo came to MotoGP, he crashed A LOT and it wasn’t because he was looking for the limit. He had a flaw in his riding. Once he got it sorted, he didn’t crash much anymore.

So, I think it would be productive if you could put some parameters around what you’re looking for in terms of how you define improvement in the context of the question. Just a thought.

[Hotfoot]

On 11/3/2023 at 8:26 AM, not so easy rider said:

. How do I safely find the maximum corner speed and grip limit on a bike. 

I'm kind of confused regarding motor cycles, though. If you break early and crack the throttle open early, the damn thing doesn't turn in and you run wide on the exit especially when you overslow the entry. Understeering means losing the front and reducing throttle mid corner means upsetting the bike and risking a lowside by losing the backend. 

So is there a similar technique for bikes that I don't know of? How should you approach the limit on a bike in a safe and predictable way? Or is it just balls to the walls until you are coming in too hot and crash and then turn it down a notch?

Hi and welcome to your new motorcycle addiction.

Finding the limit on motorcycles is not so easy; as you implied, the consequences of going over the limit are daunting. There are quite a few pieces to riding on the limit so the best recommendation would be coming to school and getting some in-person coaching to make sure all the basics are in place and build from there. With good technique, it is possible to perceive feedback from the bike that tells you when you are approaching the limit; there are warnings from the bike and tires. However, if the rider's technique and understanding of riding is not strong, it is quite easy to overshoot the limit and not have a chance to perceive those warnings. Pushing too much too soon can trigger Survival Reactions, like tensing up on the bars, or grabbing the brake, that can precipitate a slide or crash at a speed or lean angle that a more accomplished rider could manage easily.

That being said, a good place to start for getting answers to your question is with throttle control. You mentioned that getting on the gas too early makes you run wide; that is a good observation. What makes a rider tend to want to get on the gas too early in a corner?

(If you have a copy of A Twist of the Wrist II, that's a good place to start looking for answers - or watch A Twist of the Wrist movie - it's available on Prime Video here: https://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-II-Keith-Code/dp/B089ZNVBW9 , watching that should provide most of the answers you are looking for!)

[Jaybird180]

@Hotfoot- 

Thanks for the comment about "it is possible to perceive feedback from the bike that tells you when you are approaching the limit; there are warnings from the bike and tires." I too have been looking for this feedback and often wondered if it's a matter of getting to the point of actually stressing the equipment (of course assuming good technique).

I could experience some of those limits when I was mini-moto racing (it's hard to spin a rear-tire with 9HP- ha!), but didn't even come close on the big bikes. For example: on my 600, I tried in earnest to break traction on the gas at apex but that tire would stick and shoot me out of the corner and I'd get more courage to get on the gas harder the next lap in the same corner...nada! I never tempted fate on my 1000 (excluding the high-side I had in the wet), but did try and get better launches down the front straight coming out of the last turn at NJMP. By this time, though I was older (implying wiser) and tempered my wrist a bit.

I look forward to riding again at these levels and higher.

Does the bike and tires "talk" at all levels of riding or is it only in the upper band of the performance envelope?

[Hotfoot]

On 11/9/2023 at 9:32 AM, Jaybird180 said:

 

Does the bike and tires "talk" at all levels of riding or is it only in the upper band of the performance envelope?

Take a look at this article that Keith wrote, it covers this topic in detail and may answer your question:

 

[not so easy rider]

Thanks for all the comments. I think I'm getting an idea of what I have to do in order to improve (riding school) and I asumed correctly that it's much harder to ride a bike fast than a car. The last 5% are equally difficult but on the way it's easier to make a fatal mistake as bikes are much more unforgiving. 

 

[Cobie Fair]

Good thread on the subject.  A comment:

With a car, the "edge/limit" is a wider one that on a bike.  In a car, one can go past the limit with usually much less drama, "Oh well, got a little sideways there, lost a little time, no biggee."

Recognizing the edge is narrower/sharper is a good start 🙂.